About the Signs of the Second Coming of Jesus

[CharismaticLady]

Well that is a jumble of fact and fallacy, but I do not have time to sort it out. Persecutions of Christians may or may not take place. the church will have been raptured so the tribulation saints may or may not be persecuted during the first 3 1/2 years.

I hol;d to a view that is very very very minor. I am convinced after 436 years of study and searching, that the 7 year tribulation occurs at the time of the opening of teh sixth seal, but before teh seventh is opened.

The antichrist needs to be revealed before the start of teh tribulation, He needs to battle the ten kings, consolidate power, rise politically in order to be able to sign a binding treaty with Israel.

It starts at the beginning of the 1st seal, not the 6th seal. The conqueror on the white horse is the Antichrist.

 

[Timtofly]

It starts at the beginning of the 1st seal, not the 6th seal. The conqueror on the white horse is the Antichrist.

The Seals pertain to the church. Not to Satan or his friends.

 

[quietthinker]

As a follow up then, we have the statement made by Jesus at the last supper about sending the Holy Spirit:
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. John 16:8-11
Who was Jesus referring to as the ruler of this world?

Lucifer

 

[quietthinker]

It starts at the beginning of the 1st seal, not the 6th seal. The conqueror on the white horse is the Antichrist.

I would revisit that interpretation

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Seals pertain to the church. Not to Satan or his friends.

What do you think is the first seal? Who is riding the white horse.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I would revisit that interpretation

No, just compare the seals with other scripture, like Luke 21. The first seal has to do with the false Christs.

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or g]">[g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

 

[Timtofly]

What do you think is the first seal? Who is riding the white horse.

Covid 19. The only army in white and has crowns. Hence my avatar.

These are not literal horses. None of the horses represent literal beings. They represent phenomenons. Death is a new place now besides sheol. After the 7th Seal is opened Death will be the place prepared for all those names which will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 20:14

"And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Those in sheol still have their name in the Lamb's book of life as it was opened after they were sent there. I do not think any more people will go to sheol after the 7th Seal. Being sent to Death is a one way ticket to the Lake of Fire. Receiving the mark is like wearing the ticket. Satan will reward those who wear that ticket openly.

 

[quietthinker]

Covid 19. The only army in white and has crowns. Hence my avatar.

These are not literal horses. None of the horses represent literal beings. They represent phenomenons. Death is a new place now besides sheol. After the 7th Seal is opened Death will be the place prepared for all those names which will be removed from the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 20:14

"And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Those in sheol still have their name in the Lamb's book of life as it was opened after they were sent there. I do not think any more people will go to sheol after the 7th Seal. Being sent to Death is a one way ticket to the Lake of Fire. Receiving the mark is like wearing the ticket. Satan will reward those who wear that ticket openly.

Understanding how the Hebrew thought is critical to understanding these scriptures. Greek philosophical thought which the modern western world is based on only results in making a mess of these scriptures.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It starts at the beginning of the 1st seal, not the 6th seal. The conqueror on the white horse is the Antichrist.

Yes He is the antichrist. And the standard dispensational teaching is the first seal is when the antichrist signs th ecovenant with Israel that begins the 70th week or tribulation as we call it. I learned that in bible college and taught it for many years as well. J.D. Pentecosts book "Things to Come" was my favorite textbook for eschatology.

But as I learned more about the tribulation, and some of its names (in the OT the most common name for the 7 year trib is "the day of the Lord"). I realized many things that were problematic with my dispensational teaching. I am still a rock hard dispy, but have learned the bible teaches different than what was established shortly after the turn of the 20 th century.

1. Joel says the sun turns black and the moon blood BEFORE the great day of the Lord- We see this fulfilled with the opening of the sixth seal!
2. The worldly rulers cry out that the day of the Lord has arrived. After the sixth seal is opened.
3. Antichrist goes to war in the first seal. Who does he war against? Instead of looking out of SCripture we know from Daniel that the ten kings are ruling prior to the antichrist coming to power and he overthrows three of the ten! 1st seal seems to fit this like a glove!
4. Antichrist has to be in a position of political power in order to conivnce Israel to sign a 7 year treaty with him. He also has to have the authority to enact and empower the treaty agains t those who would try to violate it. (Of course he does at the mid point of the trib)

These plus many more other evidences form Scriptrure have convinced me that we dispensationalists have placed the start of teh trib at the worng place. Can I say that as thus sayeth the Lord? NO! But this look fits far better with all other end times prophecies concerning the start of the tribulationa dnthe role of the AC in the trib than the standard teaching we have adhered to for around a century.

 

[Timtofly]

Understanding how the Hebrew thought is critical to understanding these scriptures. Greek philosophical thought which the modern western world is based on only results in making a mess of these scriptures.

Perhaps John was thinking in English, and not Greek nor Hebrew?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes He is the antichrist. And the standard dispensational teaching is the first seal is when the antichrist signs th ecovenant with Israel that begins the 70th week or tribulation as we call it. I learned that in bible college and taught it for many years as well. J.D. Pentecosts book "Things to Come" was my favorite textbook for eschatology.

But as I learned more about the tribulation, and some of its names (in the OT the most common name for the 7 year trib is "the day of the Lord"). I realized many things that were problematic with my dispensational teaching. I am still a rock hard dispy, but have learned the bible teaches different than what was established shortly after the turn of the 20 th century.

1. Joel says the sun turns black and the moon blood BEFORE the great day of the Lord- We see this fulfilled with the opening of the sixth seal!
2. The worldly rulers cry out that the day of the Lord has arrived. After the sixth seal is opened.
3. Antichrist goes to war in the first seal. Who does he war against? Instead of looking out of SCripture we know from Daniel that the ten kings are ruling prior to the antichrist coming to power and he overthrows three of the ten! 1st seal seems to fit this like a glove!
4. Antichrist has to be in a position of political power in order to conivnce Israel to sign a 7 year treaty with him. He also has to have the authority to enact and empower the treaty agains t those who would try to violate it. (Of course he does at the mid point of the trib)

These plus many more other evidences form Scriptrure have convinced me that we dispensationalists have placed the start of teh trib at the worng place. Can I say that as thus sayeth the Lord? NO! But this look fits far better with all other end times prophecies concerning the start of the tribulationa dnthe role of the AC in the trib than the standard teaching we have adhered to for around a century.

Daniel 9 does not mention the AC one time. Why are you turning Jesus Christ into the AC? Only Jesus Christ was cut off. Only Jesus Christ can confirm the Covenant. This Covenant is Jesus Christ Himself. The Atonement is the covenant confirmed. The desolation that splits this week of days in half is Satan's 42 months. The Atonement was confirmed, but many still rejected the Atonement and were handed over to Satan for 42 months. This has nothing to do with government and kingdoms. This has to do with the reason the Messiah was cut off, which is the Atonement. The "cut off" is the time for the fullness of the Gentiles. It was the time the church was made Steward of the vinyard to bring in the Gentile harvest. The Covenant confirmed is the time of Israel to once again see the promise of those 6 items the 70 weeks would accomplish. Revelation 10:7. The 7th Trumpet still sees the wrath of God's winepress because that is the end of sin and Adam's flesh, which the Atonement brings an end to.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Daniel 9 does not mention the AC one time. Why are you turning Jesus Christ into the AC? Only Jesus Christ was cut off. Only Jesus Christ can confirm the Covenant. This Covenant is Jesus Christ Himself. The Atonement is the covenant confirmed. The desolation that splits this week of days in half is Satan's 42 months. The Atonement was confirmed, but many still rejected the Atonement and were handed over to Satan for 42 months. This has nothing to do with government and kingdoms. This has to do with the reason the Messiah was cut off, which is the Atonement. The "cut off" is the time for the fullness of the Gentiles. It was the time the church was made Steward of the vinyard to bring in the Gentile harvest. The Covenant confirmed is the time of Israel to once again see the promise of those 6 items the 70 weeks would accomplish. Revelation 10:7. The 7th Trumpet still sees the wrath of God's winepress because that is the end of sin and Adam's flesh, which the Atonement brings an end to.

You and I have had this dance several times already. Why do you jump to conclusions about what I know? You are once again bearing false witness against what I believe. You should know it by heart by now, for we have discussed this many times.

YOu are lousy at understanding basic grammar. Every time you see the word covenant you seem to want to force it to mean the New Covenant- which is not even a covenant God made with the Gentiles!

But once again let us look at the important and relevant verse:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

verse 26:

1. Jesus is cut off for the people.
2. people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary--Rome and the events of AD 66-70! The prince that shall come is not connected in time to the people of the prince, just that they are related-Roman.
3. The HE of verse 27 by grammatic rule (which you disdain I know) does and must refer back to its nearest personal noun antecedent! That is the prince of the people. so this is a Roman prince who makes a 7 year covenant with Israel.
4. Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel.
5. Jesus never caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease! Teh verse does not read "He shall cause the efficacy of the sacrifice and oblation to cease". YOur definition is nothing more than a rewrite of scripture.
6. Jesus would never do anything to cause an overspreading of abominations- He is God and will not cause evil. The second He once again has to refer back to its nearest personal noun antecedent. that is the prince of the people who will destroy the sanctuary and city- a Roman.
7. Taking a context and bounce it between literal and allegorical interpretations is wrong wrong wrong!

 

[quietthinker]

Perhaps John was thinking in English, and not Greek nor Hebrew?

God did not hold the pen of the Prophets. They were inspired and wrote with their own understanding of what they were impressed with. The expressions and idioms they used were from their own culture many of which escape us in our self important and cock sure ways. Direction mocked or spurned leaves one with foolishness.

 

[Daniel Veler]

Some of you have not understood the difference of Hell verses the Lake of Fire. In revelation death and He’ll were cast alive into the Lake of Fire. Understand the difference of the two and you’ll have understanding of the whole matter. It’s sad a person will take a scripture and build their own doctrine from it. This is human reasoning because they have not received it from the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes He is the antichrist. And the standard dispensational teaching is the first seal is when the antichrist signs th ecovenant with Israel that begins the 70th week or tribulation as we call it. I learned that in bible college and taught it for many years as well. J.D. Pentecosts book "Things to Come" was my favorite textbook for eschatology.

But as I learned more about the tribulation, and some of its names (in the OT the most common name for the 7 year trib is "the day of the Lord"). I realized many things that were problematic with my dispensational teaching. I am still a rock hard dispy, but have learned the bible teaches different than what was established shortly after the turn of the 20 th century.

1. Joel says the sun turns black and the moon blood BEFORE the great day of the Lord- We see this fulfilled with the opening of the sixth seal!
2. The worldly rulers cry out that the day of the Lord has arrived. After the sixth seal is opened.
3. Antichrist goes to war in the first seal. Who does he war against? Instead of looking out of SCripture we know from Daniel that the ten kings are ruling prior to the antichrist coming to power and he overthrows three of the ten! 1st seal seems to fit this like a glove!
4. Antichrist has to be in a position of political power in order to conivnce Israel to sign a 7 year treaty with him. He also has to have the authority to enact and empower the treaty agains t those who would try to violate it. (Of course he does at the mid point of the trib)

These plus many more other evidences form Scriptrure have convinced me that we dispensationalists have placed the start of teh trib at the worng place. Can I say that as thus sayeth the Lord? NO! But this look fits far better with all other end times prophecies concerning the start of the tribulationa dnthe role of the AC in the trib than the standard teaching we have adhered to for around a century.

Nice family Ron, you submitted to the words of God in Genesis 1:28 be fruitful and multiply?

Ron have you ever challenged your belief in Dispensationalism's pre-trib rapture?

I was a follower for 20 years, until I examined the claims, and scripture in support

The main scripture used by pre-tribbers is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, this is the second coming, last day resurrection, not a pre-trib rapture?

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nice family Ron, you submitted to the words of God in Genesis 1:28 be fruitful and multiply?

Ron have you ever challenged your belief in Dispensationalism's pre-trib rapture?

I was a follower for 20 years, until I examined the claims, and scripture in support

The main scripture used by pre-tribbers is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, this is the second coming, last day resurrection, not a pre-trib rapture?

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

1. Yes god has blessed me with many arrows in my quiver.

2. Many times. I have read pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib dispy writings, covenantal theology on it and amillenial textbooks on it. I look at many facets before I make my mind up

3. YOu are incorrect in calling 1 Thess 4 the second coming. Here is why:
a) In thess. Jesus descends only to the atmosphere, in Rev. 19 Jesus touches down on earth.
b) The trib period is known as the wrath of God in numerous passages. Hell is never referred as Gods wrath. in 1 Thess. 1:10 we are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come.
c) IN Rev. 19 there is a great crowd in heaven before jesus returns
d) IN REv. 19 the bride (the church ) is in heaven and is ready to wed the Lamb. That means we had to have been taken to heaven and undergo the bema seat judgment of 1 Cor. 3 and puirified. This wedding occurs in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

YOu forget that in Rev. there are two resurrections that take place.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So the last day is not the absolute last day for that is the second resurrection and on them the second death (the lake of fire) has the power over them.

The first resurrection is for the OT and tribulation saints who died from the rapture to the second coming and the establishment of the 1000 year kingdom.

Once again 1 Thess. 1:10 shows that Jesus is delivering us from the wrath to come

And that wrath is defined here:

Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I also encourage you to read this fairly short manuscript written by my favorite teacher:

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

With 1 Thess. 1 declaring we will be delivered from the wrath tro come and other than Gods wrath against sin, the only other thing described directly as the wrath of God being the tribulation, I have become 100% convinced that Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. Any time from now till the AC and Israel sign the 7 year treaty!

 

[Truth7t7]

God

1. Yes god has blessed me with many arrows in my quiver.

2. Many times. I have read pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib dispy writings, covenantal theology on it and amillenial textbooks on it. I look at many facets before I make my mind up

3. YOu are incorrect in calling 1 Thess 4 the second coming. Here is why:
a) In thess. Jesus descends only to the atmosphere, in Rev. 19 Jesus touches down on earth.
b) The trib period is known as the wrath of God in numerous passages. Hell is never referred as Gods wrath. in 1 Thess. 1:10 we are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come.
c) IN Rev. 19 there is a great crowd in heaven before jesus returns
d) IN REv. 19 the bride (the church ) is in heaven and is ready to wed the Lamb. That means we had to have been taken to heaven and undergo the bema seat judgment of 1 Cor. 3 and puirified. This wedding occurs in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

YOu forget that in Rev. there are two resurrections that take place.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So the last day is not the absolute last day for that is the second resurrection and on them the second death (the lake of fire) has the power over them.

The first resurrection is for the OT and tribulation saints who died from the rapture to the second coming and the establishment of the 1000 year kingdom.

Once again 1 Thess. 1:10 shows that Jesus is delivering us from the wrath to come

And that wrath is defined here:

Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I also encourage you to read this fairly short manuscript written by my favorite teacher:

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

With 1 Thess. 1 declaring we will be delivered from the wrath tro come and other than Gods wrath against sin, the only other thing described directly as the wrath of God being the tribulation, I have become 100% convinced that Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. Any time from now till the AC and Israel sign the 7 year treaty!

Thanks for the response Ron, just thought I would show you my thoughts on the matter

We will disagree, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 clearly shows the second coming, and last day resurrection

I disagree with your claim of last day not meaning last day

I also disagree with different times of resurrection, there will be one future resurrection of all, (First) the resurrection of life, (Second) the resurrection of damnation, and this takes place on the last day at the second coming as shown, the righteous are blessed to be in the (First)

Thanks for the response Ron, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

1. Yes god has blessed me with many arrows in my quiver.

2. Many times. I have read pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib dispy writings, covenantal theology on it and amillenial textbooks on it. I look at many facets before I make my mind up

3. YOu are incorrect in calling 1 Thess 4 the second coming. Here is why:
a) In thess. Jesus descends only to the atmosphere, in Rev. 19 Jesus touches down on earth.
b) The trib period is known as the wrath of God in numerous passages. Hell is never referred as Gods wrath. in 1 Thess. 1:10 we are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come.
c) IN Rev. 19 there is a great crowd in heaven before jesus returns
d) IN REv. 19 the bride (the church ) is in heaven and is ready to wed the Lamb. That means we had to have been taken to heaven and undergo the bema seat judgment of 1 Cor. 3 and puirified. This wedding occurs in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

YOu forget that in Rev. there are two resurrections that take place.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So the last day is not the absolute last day for that is the second resurrection and on them the second death (the lake of fire) has the power over them.

The first resurrection is for the OT and tribulation saints who died from the rapture to the second coming and the establishment of the 1000 year kingdom.

Once again 1 Thess. 1:10 shows that Jesus is delivering us from the wrath to come

And that wrath is defined here:

Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I also encourage you to read this fairly short manuscript written by my favorite teacher:

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

With 1 Thess. 1 declaring we will be delivered from the wrath tro come and other than Gods wrath against sin, the only other thing described directly as the wrath of God being the tribulation, I have become 100% convinced that Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. Any time from now till the AC and Israel sign the 7 year treaty!

Ron do you also believe a pre-trib rapture, is seen in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54 as many believe and teach within dispensationalism?

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

1. Yes god has blessed me with many arrows in my quiver.

2. Many times. I have read pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib dispy writings, covenantal theology on it and amillenial textbooks on it. I look at many facets before I make my mind up

3. YOu are incorrect in calling 1 Thess 4 the second coming. Here is why:
a) In thess. Jesus descends only to the atmosphere, in Rev. 19 Jesus touches down on earth.
b) The trib period is known as the wrath of God in numerous passages. Hell is never referred as Gods wrath. in 1 Thess. 1:10 we are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come.
c) IN Rev. 19 there is a great crowd in heaven before jesus returns
d) IN REv. 19 the bride (the church ) is in heaven and is ready to wed the Lamb. That means we had to have been taken to heaven and undergo the bema seat judgment of 1 Cor. 3 and puirified. This wedding occurs in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

YOu forget that in Rev. there are two resurrections that take place.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So the last day is not the absolute last day for that is the second resurrection and on them the second death (the lake of fire) has the power over them.

The first resurrection is for the OT and tribulation saints who died from the rapture to the second coming and the establishment of the 1000 year kingdom.

Once again 1 Thess. 1:10 shows that Jesus is delivering us from the wrath to come

And that wrath is defined here:

Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I also encourage you to read this fairly short manuscript written by my favorite teacher:

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

With 1 Thess. 1 declaring we will be delivered from the wrath tro come and other than Gods wrath against sin, the only other thing described directly as the wrath of God being the tribulation, I have become 100% convinced that Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. Any time from now till the AC and Israel sign the 7 year treaty!

Ron you mention the establishment of a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth and reference Revelation 20?

Ron can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

1. Yes god has blessed me with many arrows in my quiver.

2. Many times. I have read pre trib, mid trib, pre wrath, post trib dispy writings, covenantal theology on it and amillenial textbooks on it. I look at many facets before I make my mind up

3. YOu are incorrect in calling 1 Thess 4 the second coming. Here is why:
a) In thess. Jesus descends only to the atmosphere, in Rev. 19 Jesus touches down on earth.
b) The trib period is known as the wrath of God in numerous passages. Hell is never referred as Gods wrath. in 1 Thess. 1:10 we are promised to be delivered from the wrath to come.
c) IN Rev. 19 there is a great crowd in heaven before jesus returns
d) IN REv. 19 the bride (the church ) is in heaven and is ready to wed the Lamb. That means we had to have been taken to heaven and undergo the bema seat judgment of 1 Cor. 3 and puirified. This wedding occurs in heaven and then Jesus returns to earth!

YOu forget that in Rev. there are two resurrections that take place.

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So the last day is not the absolute last day for that is the second resurrection and on them the second death (the lake of fire) has the power over them.

The first resurrection is for the OT and tribulation saints who died from the rapture to the second coming and the establishment of the 1000 year kingdom.

Once again 1 Thess. 1:10 shows that Jesus is delivering us from the wrath to come

And that wrath is defined here:

Revelation 6:15-17
King James Version

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


I also encourage you to read this fairly short manuscript written by my favorite teacher:

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

With 1 Thess. 1 declaring we will be delivered from the wrath tro come and other than Gods wrath against sin, the only other thing described directly as the wrath of God being the tribulation, I have become 100% convinced that Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture. Any time from now till the AC and Israel sign the 7 year treaty!

Ron There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.