Adam's death in the garden explained.

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robert derrick

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When speaking of the subject of death in the scriptures many today disagree with what Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 3:19 say. Before God took dust from the ground and formed it into a flesh and blood body, Adam didn't exist.

Before God breathed into the body the spirit and living soul of man, it was only a body. Adam did not become a living soul, until God breathed into a body of dust prepared for him.

Man is a soul in mortal flesh, not a body with a soul. The natural minded man has no spiritual understanding.

For someone to say that the flesh and blood body without the breath of life(spirit) is the living person, the scriptures don't say that either.

The body without the spirit is dead flesh, like all grass. The body is never a person, but only a vessel for the person: a soul.

the scriptures teach that the flesh and blood body combined with the breath of life(spirit) is what makes a human body a living soul or living person.

Natural man teaches a body is the soul. Scripture teaches man is the soul in a natural body, called the earthen vessel.

So death is nonexistence,

Nonexistence after life is the fool's dream wish of sinners, that have no confidence in the Lord and the day of Judgement, where the soul is judged, not the body.

because if the spirit leaves a human body that living person ceases to exist, because the breath of life(spirit) without the body isn't a living person.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The natural minded man receives neither the Scripture as written, nor the things of the Spirit.

We can take either the hydrogen away or the oxygen away and water ceases to exist. So let's let hydrogen be the spirit and oxygen the flesh and blood body. Putting these two together is what makes a living person but take the hydrogen(spirit) away and the living person no longer exists. This is what death is, nonexistence.

When hydrogen and oxygen separate, they still exist, not as water, but as hydrogen and oxygen.

Living or dead souls still exist in hell or the presence of the Lord, and so do bones in the earth.
 

BeyondET

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If man eat of the tree of life after the knowledge tree could of lived for ever, its more likely Adam didn't die the same day, considering Seth came along and Adam had other children as well.
 

Robert Gwin

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ALL bodily die.
Once Adam was required to bodily die...every earthly man thereafter, was reproduced from the SAME KIND OF CORRUPT SeeD.

Mans seed reproduces it same KIND of Corrupt BODYS, “not souls”.

Do you know what death is Taken?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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So back to the verse and the pair of verbs:

Gen 2:17 But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191

Here we see the word "die" repeated twice, H4191 H4191 or using an english transliteration, "muth t'muth". "muth" is the infinitive absolute verb and "t'muth" is the conjugated/inflected verb.

So in Gen 2:17 is the first verb in the "infinitive absolute form" or is the first verb in the "conjugated/inflected form"?

In that verse the first verb is in the "infinitive absolute form" so it appears first: muth t'muth, so this meaning is the correct one:

So if Adam was a better grammarian one like ewq1938 or Youngs we would have been immortals.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Before God breathed into the body the spirit and living soul of man, it was only a body. Adam did not become a living soul, until God breathed into a body of dust prepared for him.

Man is a soul in mortal flesh, not a body with a soul. The natural minded man has no spiritual understanding.

The body without the spirit is dead flesh, like all grass. The body is never a person, but only a vessel for the person: a soul.

Natural man teaches a body is the soul. Scripture teaches man is the soul in a natural body, called the earthen vessel.

Nonexistence after life is the fool's dream wish of sinners, that have no confidence in the Lord and the day of Judgement, where the soul is judged, not the body.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The natural minded man receives neither the Scripture as written, nor the things of the Spirit.

When hydrogen and oxygen separate, they still exist, not as water, but as hydrogen and oxygen.

Living or dead souls still exist in hell or the presence of the Lord, and so do bones in the earth.

Stale and dead half-lie no-truths supported or tried to be supported with no or twisted unfinished Scriptures.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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If Adam were Nero and Eve his wife, alone in Paradise Garden of love they would've played on violin and drum, sweet music; while o'er them and trees of knowledge, of good, and of evil, cherubim's sword swept and leaped and with serpent's split tongue spat fire of cleaving brimstone; and they would've sung, Ah! sweet mystery of Death!
The difference being, they weren't alone.
 
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Robert Gwin

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1) Physically: Death is when the Body ceases to be alive.

2) Spiritually: Death is separation from God.
Both of those statements is true, however I think that you believe that when a person dies physically that something goes on, is that correct?
 

Taken

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Both of those statements is true, however I think that you believe that when a person dies physically that something goes on, is that correct?

Yes.
All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.
All quickened spirits depart out from the dying body...go heaven.
Body’s decay, return to earth.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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The infinitive absolute verb pairing explained.


Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


When speaking to a human man and telling him that in the day he sins he will suffer a punishment could only be understood as a literal day wherein he would receive that punishment. The word day means warm, which obviously is a reference to the daylight part of day so this punishment did not occur at night. The word can mean longer than a day in a figurative sense but the context of the passage shows a literal use.

Adam sinned and not long after he died. It simply wasn't a physical death but the type of death any sinless person suffers when they sin for the first time. Sin is a moral/spiritual concept, and the death it brings to a person is spiritual.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


It is claimed by some that this actually means "dying thou shalt die" and is conveying the meaning of "a continued action over a long period of time" meaning Adam began to physically age when he sinned and eventually would die but is this actually an accurate translation and interpretation? No. Allow me to explain:

Gen 2:17 But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191

Here we see the word "die" repeated twice, H4191 H4191.

One of the verbs will be written in a different verbal form than the other. That literally means one will have an extra hebrew letter/character despite being the same exact word. That spelling difference and which order the two verbs appear can alter the meaning of the verbs. One verb will be written in the infinitive absolute form. The other verb will be written in the conjugated/inflected form which has the extra letter/character. What the pair of verbs actually mean is based on which form appears first and which is second:

http://kukis.org/Languages/Hebrew4Dummies.pdf



This isn't relative because this is only when the verb is alone and not in a pair as it is in Gen 2:17.




This is when the infinitive absolute form appears first or before the conjugated/inflected form.



This is when the the conjugated/inflected verb form appears first or before infinitive absolute verb form.

So back to the verse and the pair of verbs:

Gen 2:17 But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it: forH3588 in the dayH3117 that thou eatestH398 thereofH4480 thou shalt surely die.H4191 H4191

Here we see the word "die" repeated twice, H4191 H4191 or using an english transliteration, "muth t'muth". "muth" is the infinitive absolute verb and "t'muth" is the conjugated/inflected verb.

So in Gen 2:17 is the first verb in the "infinitive absolute form" or is the first verb in the "conjugated/inflected form"?

In that verse the first verb is in the "infinitive absolute form" so it appears first: muth t'muth, so this meaning is the correct one:
This is not that complicated a concept. And it's not solved by the test of grammar. It is good to get the Concordance out but this one needs to be experienced. Life and death can be read about in a book and explained in words but we need to experience life and death to know. WE NEEDED TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL. We could not really appreciate and know good until we experienced it's opposite.
We are to discern scripture spiritually, not with grammatical rules. He didn't physically die that day (completely), so it must be a spiritual death, a relational separation from God. They were clothed spiritually and then they were naked. I always pondered on that issue. "Who told you, you were naked', God asked. In it's totality, it was this guilt, shame, embarrassment, fear, sadness and insecurity that came upon them all of a sudden. So, God made clothes for them. What did that do really? It was the first animal sacrifice done to clothe them but not only physically. I think it was symbolic too. Clothing helps somewhat to hide our shame, but it was not enough. Mankind would need to be clothed spiritually. A more significant sacrifice needed to be made at some point to spiritually clothe us. When we get rid of these tents, we will have eternal bodies some day.
Now about the physical aspect. Though Adam was perfect biologically before sin, he was not after sin. Sin entered into all of creation, everything that was living, animals , plants and man. Everything was distorted down to the cellular level - even on the atomic level of non-living things.
Concerning life, physical death began. Cells began to die, bacteria and viruses mutated and illnesses were born on that day. So it was not only spiritual death but physical.m death that entered. Their days were numbered, because their bodies were genetically compromised. Of course these genetic deformities just started, so their bodies were still strong and they lived longer. Now these genetic defects have evolved to where we are today, with all the diseases, illnesses and genetic defects we see and experience.
 
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Robert Gwin

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Yes.
All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.
All quickened spirits depart out from the dying body...go heaven.
Body’s decay, return to earth.

I gathered that is what you thought Taken. You may be pleasantly surprised to learn that is not what the Bible really teaches sir.

The Bible doesn't discuss death much, but it does address it and makes it clear what death is. You are aware that the wages sin pays is death, because Adam sinned we all die. God told Adam exactly what death was from the beginning, no doubt you have read His words before: (Genesis 3:19) . . .In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Humans and animals who die all go to the same place: (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) . . .For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.

Nothing survives death, no knowledge at all, just as before you were born:(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4-6) . . .. 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.

(Ecclesiastes 9:10) 10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.

What is the hope for those in Sheol (same place as Hades just different language)?
(John 5:28, 29) 28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Yes the resurrection. It is one of the mainstays of the Christian faith, Paul said:
(1 Corinthians 15:29-32) . . .If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? 31 Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephʹe·sus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.”

And everyone in Hades will be resurrected as it will be emptied: Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This means a lot to many people sir, as people have been led to believe that you keep on living after you die, just like satan told Eve that she would not die, but we do. What a relief to know that God will bring back to life all who are in hell, like Job even knew about: Job 14:13 Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me?Job 14:14 Shall man that is dead, thinkest thou, live again? all the days in which I am now in warfare, I expect until my change come.


That is why the message of the Bible is called good news Taken.
 

Taken

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Yes.
All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.
All quickened spirits depart out from the dying body...go heaven.
Body’s decay, return to earth.

I gathered that is what you thought Taken. You may be pleasantly surprised to learn that is not what the Bible really teaches sir.

(Genesis 3:19) . . .In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Uh huh...”Body’s decay, return to earth”

Nothing survives death, no knowledge at all, just as before you were born; Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.

His spirit goes out

TO WHERE? @Robert Gwin


I already gave my answer...
“All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.”

You criticize my answer, YET, YOU give no answer as to where “his spirit goes out” TO.......TO WHERE Robert?
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Uh huh...”Body’s decay, return to earth”





TO WHERE? @Robert Gwin


I already gave my answer...
“All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.”

You criticize my answer, YET, YOU give no answer as to where “his spirit goes out” TO.......TO WHERE Robert?
You do realize that Robert is a Jehovah Witness? They believe in soul sleep, that Hades is the grave and that when a person dies, they no longer are conscious and really don't exist anymore, only in God's mind. Then after the Millennial Kingdom, their bodies are resurrected and then God wakes them up (or so to speak) and recreates them back to life. They are fixed in their theology and won't budge.
 

Taken

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You do realize that Robert is a Jehovah Witness? They believe in soul sleep, that Hades is the grave and that when a person dies, they no longer are conscious and really don't exist anymore, only in God's mind. Then after the Millennial Kingdom, their bodies are resurrected and then God wakes them up (or so to speak) and recreates them back to life. They are fixed in their theology and won't budge.

Hi Ronald-
Nah, Didn’t know @Robert Gwin carries the Description Name; Jehovah Witness.
* Seems to me:
IF a person is going to be a WITNESS Servant FOR God, they should be Witnessing with Gods Word.
IF a person is going to be a WITNESS OF God, they should be sharing their BLESSINGS FROM God.

However I do not know what people carrying the Description Name:
Jehovah Witness...specifically teach.

But it appears, they are not taught the ORDER and WAY according to Gods Word.

There is NO SUCH thing as a “SLEEPING SOUL”.
ALL Living Souls that God has made, ARE FULLY ALIVE and conscious.

Isa 57
[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

 

Robert Gwin

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Uh huh...”Body’s decay, return to earth”





TO WHERE? @Robert Gwin


I already gave my answer...
“All living souls depart out from the dying body...go heaven or hell.”

You criticize my answer, YET, YOU give no answer as to where “his spirit goes out” TO.......TO WHERE Robert?

What is the Ruach that goes out sir? His breath of life, in other words he died. So like satan you say man can not die, that is not a Bible teaching Taken. For what reason did Jesus die for us if you do not die sir?
 

Robert Gwin

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Hi Ronald-
Nah, Didn’t know @Robert Gwin carries the Description Name; Jehovah Witness.
* Seems to me:
IF a person is going to be a WITNESS Servant FOR God, they should be Witnessing with Gods Word.
IF a person is going to be a WITNESS OF God, they should be sharing their BLESSINGS FROM God.

However I do not know what people carrying the Description Name:
Jehovah Witness...specifically teach.

But it appears, they are not taught the ORDER and WAY according to Gods Word.

There is NO SUCH thing as a “SLEEPING SOUL”.
ALL Living Souls that God has made, ARE FULLY ALIVE and conscious.

Isa 57
[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Actually Taken, all souls die sir Eze 18:4 The Bible states very clearly that the dead know nothing. Ps 146:4