After the Devil is Cast Out
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Just more speculation that is just as bad as the previous fellow's post.
Rev.12:1-5 is a type of summary.
Rev.12 is... part of the Revelation chronology as it even mentions 2 each 1260 day periods from the Book of Daniel and per Rev.11 and Rev.13.
There is NO reference to the 7th trumpet in Revelation 12. So NO 7th trumpet timing can be applied to the events in Rev.12.
Perhaps you should stick with the books by Dr. Suess, perhaps through them you can learn reading comprehension???
Why did you just bypass that "And they worshipped the dragon" part? Who is the "dragon" per that Rev.12 chapter? It is Satan himself.
The "beast" that is talking about the "dragon" (Satan) gives power to, is the Rev.13:1 "beast" that comes up out of the sea (of peoples per Rev.17), and has ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. That beast is a BEAST KINGDOM, not the Antichrist beast.
The "another beast" starting at Rev.13:11 is the Antichrist beast, and that is who the Rev.12:4 verse is pointing to with, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"
These verses at a high level are about how Satan was using the pagan Roman Empire to persecute Christians. Satan was eventually cast out of the pagan Roman Empire. Specifically this happened when the Roman Empire became a Christian empire under Constantine. During this time Roman Empire also became bipartite aka two wings of an eagle so during the time the church was safe in the wilderness but then paganism and persecution was revived under the 7 headed 10 horned beast aka Papal Antichristendom. Christ was also being symbolically born in the members of the church who were persecuted by the Roman Empire. Apostle Paul in Galatians 4:19 said "I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you"
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So there was a literal talking serpent in the garden, not Satan? How do you explain this:
"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"
Satan is the devil, is that old serpent, is the dragon of Revelation 12.
The serpent was the form of the rebellious Satan in the Garden, while going to and fro in the earth.
"And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Satan took on the form of a serpent while on earth in the OT. Unless you think the walking talking serpent was a dragon in form, and a serpent in name.
A Chinese dragon looks more like a serpent, than a European dragon that looks like a beast of the field. What Satan looked like as a serpent may be totally different from both. They don't exist any more. We only see them as mythological creatures today.
Certainly Satan stopped appearing as a serpent at some point, and who knows what he looks like?
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
Not unless you are pointing back to the souls under the altar in Rev.6 on the 5th Seal. They asked God 'how long' until He would recompense with the end of this world, and what did God tell them? He told them they must wait yet a little season (great tribulation) until their brethren and fellowservants were killed as they were. Thus the 5th Seal is pointing to the "great tribulation" timing at the end for those fellowservants that are to be killed as they were.
Rev 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV
And there it is, in red above, pointing to the 5th Seal timing at the END of this world.
So what timing did you say those Rev.12:7-17 Scriptures are pointing to? Pagan Rome of past history? No, that Rev.12:7-17 Scripture has NOT happened yet today, because the Rev.6 SEALS is for ONLY the last generation that will see Jesus' future return. Did you not know this point? How do I know, you might ask?
It's because the 7 Signs Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are... the Seals of Rev.6, and those Signs are specifically about the END of this world just prior to the "great tribulation", and then about His return to end that tribulation.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
How does Satan being in the form of a serpent that was created by God for the earth, whom God proclaimed "very good" proof that he was cast out of heaven for having rebelled against God in heaven during creation?
Genesis 1:24-25 (KJV) And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:31 (KJV) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
One can either look at the events of this world from God's perspective or from man's and this world's perspective.
I keep saying.
In other words, one can look at Christ coming (and Satan's fall) in the fulness of time where His coming was revealed to and in this world, or as it is also written, "before the foundation of this world." The point being....why even mention what occurred before the foundation of the world--what is it that He has only eluded to, and why?
I could tell you and do, that it is because God has eluded to all truth from His perspective to reveal that the times of this world are just the reading of it, that "image" proclaimed from the beginning, as a book written before the world began-- But why should anyone care when they have their own world to care about?
Why indeed.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are the only one even using the term flesh and focused on "the flesh".
Paul states the physical body is either corruptible or incorruptible. Not that the physical body "is" and then "ceases to exist".
A physical body is either earthly from Adam or celestial from God. It is still a physical body.
Flesh in Scripture is referring to the sin nature of Adam's mortal body passed down to all humanity. Flesh is the embodiment of death. A physical body means life.
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Born of water is the womb of a woman. Being born of the Spirit is the second birth. You have to have a physical body, to exist. Without one you would be naked. The physical body is not the issue. Having Adam's mortal body is the issue. God's permanent incorruptible physical body is what Adam was created with. But Adam died and God removed his soul from God's permanent incorruptible physical body to a body of death and corruption. That is what is mortal and flesh. Not the existence of a physical body.
You cannot enter Paradise without a physical body. That is why those in Abraham's bosom were only souls and could not enter Paradise. The physical act of the Cross and resurrection opened Paradise so physical bodies could once more enter. The souls in Abraham's bosom experienced the first resurrection, a physical resurrection into a physical body, and ascended to Paradise with Christ on Sunday morning. The Cross was the last day resurrection for those OT redeemed waiting in Abraham's bosom.
The rest of the dead still have to wait until the GWT judgment. Since the Cross, no one who is redeemed had to taste death, nor enter Abraham's bosom. They go straight to Paradise with the first resurrection blessings. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day, not 3 days later.
Since Rev 12 is written in highly symbolic language, you must discern what each symbol means to be able to understand the chapter. There is no mention of a rebellion taking place in heaven when Christ was born or even at creation. John writes only of the war that occurred in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels. Rebellion implies a reason for the war, but John writes the reason for the war was because the Christ-child was to be caught up to God and His throne. Since the dragon could not kill the child at birth, he thought he might destroy him in heaven. What the dragon, depicting Satan did not realize is that the child would not be caught up to God and His throne until His work on earth ordained of Him from before the foundation of the world was finished.
The war beginning in heaven then accomplished the purpose of God to cast Satan and his demonic hosts out of heaven and bind them forever to the earth, where the spiritual war that began in heaven would continue on earth until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. There was no rebellion in heaven at creation between so-called good angels and bad angels. The serpent created to be more cunning and crafty than any other of God's created beasts of the field was exactly what God created him to be. It was ordained before the foundation of the world that the Son of God would be the slain Lamb, and through Him God would always have a people for Himself.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
What part of being a parenthetical description do you not comprehend?
This is only about the 7th Trumpet as the first 6 Trumpets already happened and the 7 Thunders happened in Revelation 10.
Revelation 10 starts the parenthetical about the 7th Trumpet. This goes until Revelation 11:14. All about the 7th Trumpet.
Then chapter 12 is the second half of the parenthetical introducing the dragon into the text for the first time. There is no mention of Satan until the 7th Trumpet, unless you consider him to have unlocked the pit in the 5th Trumpet.
Chapter 12 is not chronological about the Trumpets. It is hardly chronological about Satan. Yes Jesus was born prior to the 7th Trumpet. We get that. He was born over 2,000 years ago. The 7th Trumpet did not sound in the first century. At the 7th Trumpet only 42 months of sin will remain if God even allows those 42 months, or 1260 days.
Chapters 11 and 12 are describing the events surrounding the 7th Trumpet. We know that Jesus was born 2,000 years ago. Those reading the letters in the first 2 centuries already knew Jesus was born, but the 7th Trumpet was still future to them, and still future to us. The birth of Jesus is not part of the chronological order of the Second Coming events.
Satan and the angels cast out of heaven are because the angels were loosed at the 5th Trumpet. It is not some historical narrative. That battle happens at the 7th Trumpet, because the parenthetical is about the 7th Trumpet, not the birth of Jesus. Chapter 12 introduces the dragon as the antithesis of Jesus as the physical ruler of all the earth as pronounced at the 7th Trumpet, and that antithesis started at the physical birth of Jesus and ends at the 7th Trumpet.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Here is a hint:
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"
And when the Sabbath Day, the Day of the Lord was over, all 1,000 years, then Satan and the angels were allowed to rebel. Not one minute or second prior to the end of that Day of Adonia mentioned in Genesis 2.
If you don't want to use the NT to help explain the OT, then don't. Just keep guessing. Some say they existed before creation. Can you all please quote that verse from God's Word?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You are turning a parenthetical chapter about the 7th Trumpet into every thing else but the 7th Trumpet. That is your Amil bias interpreting Scripture and making things up that never happened in the first century. Welcome to the world of creating your own fantasy.
There has been spiritual conflict in heaven and on earth, since the Flood. Not sure why you keep insisting the strawman fallacy about creation. Satan and the angels rebelled together. They were bound in the pit ever since Satan took a third of the stars with him and left heaven.
Jude 1:6
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."
That happened long ago prior to Adam's disobedience.
It has not happened twice. It is not an ongoing phenomenon where they are bound up every time it happens.
They rebelled once, and were immediately bound in the pit until the 5th Trumpet.
You have angels bound in Everlasting chains waltzing all over creation as they please, contradicting Jude 1:6. Some people claim it happened when Noah was alive, during his first 400 years of life. Why did it take so long for Satan to decieve those angels?
Revelation 12 is symbolic language that points out as the serpent/dragon he rebelled and took them with him at that point.
Revelation 12 does not claim that the battle with Michael was that point. Jude says they walked out of heaven, and left their estate. They were not cast out, but followed Satan and have been bound ever since.
So until they are loosed, they cannot even have a battle to cast them out of heaven.
During seal judgements Christ starts to judge the pagan Roman Empire. Seal 6th Roman Empire becomes a Christian empire under Constantine. During Trumpet and Bowl judgments Christ started judging Roman Antichristendom that arose under Constantine where Christianity was mixed with paganism Jesus specifically released Saracen Arabs aka locusts and Turks aka 4 angels (Turkey divided into four parts) bound by Great River Euphrates basically Jesus released the Ottoman Empire against the Eastern part of the Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire eventually conquered the Eastern part of the Roman Empire
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