Just to clarify, is your question locational? As in the wrathful vengeance taking place inJerusalem vs Thessalonica?
All things written may be fulfilled
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Spiritual Israelite
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I'm asking why Paul would talk about vengeance on unbelievers in Jerusalem to believers in Thessalonica. How would God's wrath against unbelievers in Jerusalem be a case of vengeance against Jews persecuting believers in Thessalonica? I would think that the unbelieving Jews in Thessalonica who were persecuting Christians there would be punished for that, not unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem.
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OT practicing Jews had to travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year for required feasts. So I guess I still don’t understand your question, if the unbelieving Jews who persecuted Christians in Thessalonica travelled to Jerusalem for Passover and got stuck there to face wrath and vengeance to fulfill all that is written?
Spiritual Israelite
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So, you're saying that those Jews who lived in Thessalonica could only be punished if the Roman armies happened to attack Jerusalem during one of those 3 times a year that they were in Jerusalem? The context of 2 Thessalonians 1 is in relation to the future return of Christ which is a global event. It's the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, which is clearly a global event when you compare that to 2 Peter 3:10-13.
Jews persecuted Christians because of religious reasons. They didn't accept the Christian faith and hold up their own. So if Jesus came and destroyed their whole foundation of worship & religion, which was centered wholly in Jerusalem and it's temple, then they were basically shut up and had no arguments against the Christians. See for example how they tried to convince the Christians in Galatia that they had to circumcise themselves to be saved.
Spiritual Israelite
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Read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. Paul is not talking about Jesus coming and destroying the foundation of worship and religion, he's talking about Jesus destroying the unbelievers themselves.
Ye, how many jewish unbelievers do you think died then? They got destroyed alongside their city and temple.
Historically, it was Passover as to why so many Jews were In Jerusalem during the siege of 70ad. Jesus called this siege by the Roman’s “wrath upon this people” , and “the days of VENGEANCE to fulfill all that is written.” The Jews, who rejected the gospel, and who persecuted the Thessalonians, would have likely travelled to Jerusalem for the Passover during this time, as require by law, and thus facing the wrath and days of vengeance that fulfill all that is written.
So if 2 Thessalonians 1 has nothing to do with Luke 21 and 70ad, then these unbelieving Jews, that persecuted the Thessalonians, potentially face vengeance and wrath twice. The first vengeance in 70 ad to fulfill all that is written, and then a 2nd vengeance at the coming of Christ?
Since the first fulfills “all that is written” the 2nd could potentially have nothing to do with the OT, but instead, new revelation from Paul that goes beyond OT?
Do these unbelievers that persecuted the Thessalonians include first century jews?
Also, afterwards, they would be busy trying to win back their city. This event had massive implications for jews all around the world, with the result that Christians wouldn't have to face the same amount of persecution from them anymore.
Truth7t7
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Jesus talked about "Future" generation and events that will take place in Jerusalem, and "Future" signs that will proceed his "Future" send coming, 70AD played no part whatsoever in Matthew Chapter 24 fulfillment
Except it's absurd that any of the following happened in the first century, in any sense.
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels(2 Thessalonians 1:7)
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.(2 Thessalonians 1:10)
In order for verse 7 to even be fulfilled, the following has to be fulfilled first.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence(prosopon) of the Lord
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began
Notice something important here--------------------when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence(prosopon) of the Lord
Then notice this in 2 Thessalonians 1:9---Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence(prosopon) of the Lord
IOW---when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence(prosopon) of the Lord---He shall send Jesus Christ---Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things----and the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels---In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ---Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence(prosopon) of the Lord, and from the glory of his power-------When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day
Obviously then, the presence(prosopon) pertaining to Acts 3:19 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is involving a literal presence, a bodily presence. It is absurd to spiritualize this presence(prosopon).
Matthew 25:31-46 is also relevant here.
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Ok, let’s look at an OT verse that cross references with both Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
Isaiah 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
This verse contains “the day of vengeance” and “the year of my redeemed is come”. Luke 21:22 contains “the days of vengeance” and Luke 21:28 has “your redemption draweth nigh”.
Since you have Luke 21:22 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8 as entirely different days of vengeance, which one is Isaiah 63:4 referring to?
Why would you even ask that? You should know by now what the answer is.
It’s about corroboration. If a view has all the days of vengeance happening and being fulfilled at the same time then that view has more scriptures corroborating with each other than your view does. Corroboration is an important thing, I’ve seen you and especially @WPM hammer on that point over and over.
Truth7t7
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The time of the gentiles didn't take place in 70AD and your false claim there is a 2,000 year continous time of the gentiles up to the second coming, your teaching is outright Malarkey!
Revelation 11:2 clearly declares that the time of the gentiles will be 42 future months that ends in the second coming seen in Revelation 11:15
Sad part about it is, you will continue to falsely teach of 70AD fulfillment and the phony 2,000 year gap "Sad"!
Luke 21:24KJV
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
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How you can change "this generation" to "future generation" without even blinking or mentioning the change is beyond me. Where is some reverence for the words of Scripture?
Search the gospels for "this/current generation" and for "future generation" and tell me the number of instances.
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Hmmmm.....70 AD +2000 years = 2070. It is now 2025. Jesus has not returned yet.
So the gap is still in effect, yes ?
Still time that the four two months of Revelation 11:2 could be fulfilled before 2070, yes ?
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Actually, Jesus gave the parable of the fig tree to know when all the things that take place before His return will happen.
1967 + 70 years/generation = 2037. Jesus's return will be before the end of 2037. So since there are 7 years right before Jesus's return, the Gog/Magog event will take place before the end of 2030.
Look up ! Our redemption draws near !
If we assume interpreting those passages in a hyper-literalistic fashion, then I absolutely agree with you, it would be absurd to claim that Jesus literally, visibily, and bodily descended from heaven in flaming fire and in wrath and vengeance upon the unbelievers that persecuted the Thessalonians. Though, I have never claimed that happen, so I’m not sure who your argument is directed?
Luke 21:20-23 has the destruction of Jerusalem labeled as “wrath against this people” and “the days of vengeance to FULFILL ALL THAT IS WRITTEN”.
In 2 Thessalonians 1, Paul has Christ descending from heaven in flaming fire and in vengeance on those that persecuted the Thessalonian believers. (From acts 17, we know it was non believing Jews that persecuted the believing Jews and gentiles)
So, is Paul revealing that the non believing Jews will face vengeance twice: in the days of vengeance to fulfill all that sin written AND when Christ literally, visibly descends from heaven? Or is Paul using apocalyptic language similar to the OT, where God descended from heaven to enact judgement on his enemies and nations (2 Samuel 22, Isaiah 19, etc….)? Or did paul believe in a literal descending of Christ in flaming fire from heaven and this coincided with the destruction of Jerusalem? Or is Paul teaching something else all together?
Spiritual Israelite
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Spiritual Israelite
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LOL. But, you are completely unable to refute it, so I have no reason to take you seriously. You have the tribulation described in Luke 21:20-24 occurring just before Jesus returns, right? How can the times of the Gentiles follow His return? Jesus clearly referred to a time that He called "the times of the Gentiles" that would follow the time of tribulation that He described. How do you reconcile that with your futurist understanding of the passage?
Revelation 11:2 has nothing to do with Luke 21:20-24. That passage is referring to the church (the temple of God is the church) and to the heathen who are outside the church. The Greek word "ethnos" is translated as Gentiles in Revelation 11:2, but it also can mean heathen. Luke 21:20-24 is talking about non-Jews (Gentiles) trampling on Jerusalem after being destroyed, which is what has been happening since 70 AD. You are not reading the scriptures carefully, so you are missing the context. You are seeing similar words being used and making assumptions that the passages are related without even thinking about the context of each passage.
It's sad that you don't look at the scripture in context because of your extreme hyper-literal bias. You act as if it's evil for anything to have been fulfilled in 70 AD. What a joke! Just because Jesus talked some about the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple buildings in 70 AD doesn't mean that He didn't also talk a lot about things related to His future second coming at the end of the age. The Olivet Discourse is primarily about that, but it's SAD for anyone to deny that He said anything about the destruction of the temple buildings and Jerusalem in 70 AD when Him saying that the temple buildings would be destroyed was what spawned the Olivet Discourse in the first place.
There's no direct relation between those verses. Luke 21:24 is CLEARLY talking about earthly Jerusalem. In Revelation, the holy city is NOT earthly Jerusalem, but rather heavenly Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), which represents the church.
Spiritual Israelite
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Jesus was talking about that event fulfilling all that was written in the Old Testament about the destruction of Jerusalem. Does context mean nothing to you? That does not preclude the fact that He will take vengeance on all unbelievers at His return as well. There's nothing written in Luke 21 that the only vengeance that can be taken would be when Jerusalem was destroyed and no other time.
Your view requires that the destruction of Jerusalem would have to occur when the Jews living in Thessalonica were visiting Jerusalem. That's a very weak view. Paul was talking about the future time when Jesus will return and destroy all unbelievers. Jesus Himself said He will be doing that in Matthew 24:35-39 and all unbelievers will certainly be destroyed when fire comes down on the entire earth when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). You can't just change every passage about His return into something related to 70 AD. That is utterly ridiculous. I think you are privately a full preterist, but don't want to admit it. Tell me which scripture you think refers to the future return of Jesus Christ. If you don't even think 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 refers to that event, then I don't know what scripture you would think refers to it.
Do you not think that them being cast into everlasting fire (the lake of fire) when Jesus returns in the future would be a case of them facing vengeance? They faced physical vengeance in 70 AD, but they have more judgment and vengeance to come when Jesus comes to judge all people (Matthew 25:31-46).
He's talking about the same event that Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12. The heavens and earth will be literally dissolved and burned up with fire when Jesus returns.
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