ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[Trekson]

Well, all of earth'e creation anyway.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Trekson,

Why not the whole of creation, like scripture says?

 

[Trekson]

As far as humanity is concerned, the earth is the whole of creation. What else God has or hasn't created out "there", isn't our business or concern until we enter the spiritual realm.

 

[dragonfly]

What else God has or hasn't created out "there", isn't our business or concern until we enter the spiritual realm.

That is not the position taken by the ancients, nor the psalmist, nor the apostle Paul, nor the Lord Himself, the Creator of the universe.

How can you separate the heavenly bodies (which have effects on earth) from the viability of the earth itself (and its inhabitants)?

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament shows his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night shows knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoices as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven,
and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the LORD...'

Are those observations not also of the workings of 'the law of the Lord'? Romans 1:20


Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Were the 'wise men from the east' mistaken to take note of the star which announced Messiah's birth and whereabouts?


Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Genesis 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.


Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.
Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.



It seems pretty clear God expects us to take other parts of creation into our reckoning, if for no other reason than to acknowledge His greatness.

 

[Trekson]

As you know this was referencing other possibilities of life, not the stars themselves.

 

[dragonfly]

As you know this was referencing other possibilities of life, not the stars themselves.

That is a small point. Planets look like stars from here, unless they are close enough to be sure they don't twinkle.

You are evading the point that the whole of creation affects earth, and that our interests cannot be limited to earth. The stars are part of the balance in the whole of creation, and apart from the gospel being written in them, have guided travellers in all eras past.

 

[Trekson]

I think you're stretching things out of proportion. There is a vast difference between stars that make supposed pictures and used as navigational devices than what may or may not be occurring in the millions of other galaxies and solar systems and billions of planets out there. The question becomes, does a rock slide on a planet 15 light years from earth have any affect here? No! If we're lucky we might get to see a star go nova, but will it effect the earth? highly unlikely!

 

[dragonfly]

I think you're stretching things out of proportion. There is a vast difference between stars that make supposed pictures and used as navigational devices than what may or may not be occurring in the millions of other galaxies and solar systems and billions of planets out there. The question becomes, does a rock slide on a planet 15 light years from earth have any affect here? No! If we're lucky we might get to see a star go nova, but will it effect the earth? highly unlikely!

Hmm.

We may not know how the rest of creation affects us, but it's clear from scripture that God created every realm of the whole of creation for His own pleasure, and, He speaks to us through creation, and has has given signs through creation - which mean something to Him.

If it were not for Romans 8:22 and (to name but two) Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist, it would be possible to kid ourselves that we could ignore what we don't know and understand.

 

[Trekson]

I really don't know what you're trying to discuss here, your words: "If it were not for Romans 8:22 and (to name but two) Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist

seems to sum up nicely what I was saying.

 

[Questor]

Having read the entire thread twice, I find myself stymied. Each of you on this thread have knowledge, some of which may not contradict each other if it were properly explained by each of you.

For instance, the phrase 'rapture' has an unfortunate connotation of being pre-tribulation timing due to their understanding of scripture, with Darby's and Schofields teachings.

Other's speak of a 'pre-wrath rapture', as if that somehow clarifies the matter, but we are still using a word with the connotation of 'special evacuation' to describe the harpazo, the catching up of the living believers into the air, above the earth, to join the just prior ressurrected ones of the believing dead, to meet Yeshua in the air, 'that where He is, there we may be also'.

It would be really nice to stop using the word 'rapture' at all, since it doesn't describe the same event properly to all readers.

'Catching Away' would be accurate, as would 'The Rising' as in 'Rising to Meet Christ as He returns', but all of you are ignoring the very crucial part of the Catching Away, in that we go to meet Yeshua AND the Resurrected Believers.

So please, don't call it a 'Pretrib Rapture', a 'Prewrath Rapture', which MAY happen somewhere, although I find no scriptural evidence of it, meaning being caught away to a protected place. Please stop tainting the final return of Christ, complete with the Resurrection of the Believer's in Christ, AND the catching away of those Believers that survive to just prior to the wrath of God.

Christ's coming in the clouds just above the earth, to meet with all his Elect is something that happens here, just above the earth, just before Yeshua with the sword of His mouth, kills all those who in battlement stand against Israel. This is the time of Israel realizing with wailing, and terrible sorrow, their mistake. This is Yeshua ushering in the Millenium, into which the remnant of the Jews, which have been protected, and those who survived to the end of the Tribulation without taking the mark, will enter.

The 'Elect' will be in bone and flesh bodies, just like Yeshua's body, and Yeshua will reign with a rod of iron from Jerusalem as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, with all the 'Elect' able to make sure that the world is governed rightly, taught rightly, and encouraged to come into belief in Yeshua. Who is to teach the living ones, or to decide their quarrels, but those who are the elect servents of the Most High? Who is to teach those that are Jews, caught in the Torah, to turn from their customs, and to listen to the Ruach haKodesh? And who is to teach those with no exposure to the Scriptures that survived the Tribulation anyway?

All of the events of the Tribulation have to be set in context in order to have meaning. There is little point in pinpointing what is to happen next if we are not also discussing what is expected of us, who have the hope in us to get through the Trib witnessing, or die in the Trib witnessing to the Gospel of the Kingdom, in which Yeshua reigns triumphant.

Are we believers to take care of those who with the mark are being attacked by demons that we might be a witness to Yeshua by our actions to those that are still unmarked? If the elect are sealed against the weather, and the locusts, and other such things, to take care of those suffering, or hurt, or hungry, and then be imprisoned by the AntiChrist, and killed publically, that we might cause some others still hiding, still undecided to see and hear our willing death?

If you see a pretrib rapture, please, tell me where the scriptures state it's occurance, and what happens to those raptured, for I have not found any such, though I have searched long and hard for them. Are you Pre-Wrath? Does that mean being caught away just before the vials are poured out, but still meeting Yeshua in the air along with the Resurrected Believers? Are you aware of the approaching end, and playing games with scripture to stay focused and unafraid on the End of Days, or are you seeking to find more than what you yourself have found?

Please be specific, and also, could you treat one scene or occurence within the entire vision of John at a time, without jumping back and forth, and in and about, comparing this to that, and leaving those of us who want to learn from you, and discuss with you, what is soon coming upon us. There is only one vision in Revelation, but there are many different scenes, and several different occurences being explained, although some of it is happening sequentially, others simply seem to be breaking down the effects of a seal into several trumpets, and a trumpet into vials, while all along, other things are happening...the 7 Thunders, and the 3 woes, which do seem to match with specific Trumpets, rather than being seperate scenes of other happenings within the Revelation of Yeshua to John.

I for one would like to first know if the seals are already opened, when they opened, and if so, which ones? And also, is the First seal an image of Christ going forth at the time of His visitation, His ressurection, or is it an image of the AntiChrist?

And also, please specify by what you mean for the 'Day of the Lord'. Are you speaking of the 'Day of Jacob's Trouble'? Or just the vials being poured out upon the world?

And which 'Wrath of God' do you speak of, the 'Tribulation of the Last Days' which punishes the living wicked, or the entire 'Wrath of God' which is the final 'White Throne Judgement', which doesn't occur until the Millenium is over.

 

[veteran]

Having read the entire thread twice, I find myself stymied. Each of you on this thread have knowledge, some of which may not contradict each other if it were properly explained by each of you.

For instance, the phrase 'rapture' has an unfortunate connotation of being pre-tribulation timing due to their understanding of scripture, with Darby's and Schofields teachings.

Other's speak of a 'pre-wrath rapture', as if that somehow clarifies the matter, but we are still using a word with the connotation of 'special evacuation' to describe the harpazo, the catching up of the living believers into the air, above the earth, to join the just prior ressurrected ones of the believing dead, to meet Yeshua in the air, 'that where He is, there we may be also'.

It would be really nice to stop using the word 'rapture' at all, since it doesn't describe the same event properly to all readers.

'Catching Away' would be accurate, as would 'The Rising' as in 'Rising to Meet Christ as He returns', but all of you are ignoring the very crucial part of the Catching Away, in that we go to meet Yeshua AND the Resurrected Believers.

So please, don't call it a 'Pretrib Rapture', a 'Prewrath Rapture', which MAY happen somewhere, although I find no scriptural evidence of it, meaning being caught away to a protected place. Please stop tainting the final return of Christ, complete with the Resurrection of the Believer's in Christ, AND the catching away of those Believers that survive to just prior to the wrath of God.

Christ's coming in the clouds just above the earth, to meet with all his Elect is something that happens here, just above the earth, just before Yeshua with the sword of His mouth, kills all those who in battlement stand against Israel. This is the time of Israel realizing with wailing, and terrible sorrow, their mistake. This is Yeshua ushering in the Millenium, into which the remnant of the Jews, which have been protected, and those who survived to the end of the Tribulation without taking the mark, will enter.

The 'Elect' will be in bone and flesh bodies, just like Yeshua's body, and Yeshua will reign with a rod of iron from Jerusalem as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, with all the 'Elect' able to make sure that the world is governed rightly, taught rightly, and encouraged to come into belief in Yeshua. Who is to teach the living ones, or to decide their quarrels, but those who are the elect servents of the Most High? Who is to teach those that are Jews, caught in the Torah, to turn from their customs, and to listen to the Ruach haKodesh? And who is to teach those with no exposure to the Scriptures that survived the Tribulation anyway?

All of the events of the Tribulation have to be set in context in order to have meaning. There is little point in pinpointing what is to happen next if we are not also discussing what is expected of us, who have the hope in us to get through the Trib witnessing, or die in the Trib witnessing to the Gospel of the Kingdom, in which Yeshua reigns triumphant.

Are we believers to take care of those who with the mark are being attacked by demons that we might be a witness to Yeshua by our actions to those that are still unmarked? If the elect are sealed against the weather, and the locusts, and other such things, to take care of those suffering, or hurt, or hungry, and then be imprisoned by the AntiChrist, and killed publically, that we might cause some others still hiding, still undecided to see and hear our willing death?

If you see a pretrib rapture, please, tell me where the scriptures state it's occurance, and what happens to those raptured, for I have not found any such, though I have searched long and hard for them. Are you Pre-Wrath? Does that mean being caught away just before the vials are poured out, but still meeting Yeshua in the air along with the Resurrected Believers? Are you aware of the approaching end, and playing games with scripture to stay focused and unafraid on the End of Days, or are you seeking to find more than what you yourself have found?

Please be specific, and also, could you treat one scene or occurence within the entire vision of John at a time, without jumping back and forth, and in and about, comparing this to that, and leaving those of us who want to learn from you, and discuss with you, what is soon coming upon us. There is only one vision in Revelation, but there are many different scenes, and several different occurences being explained, although some of it is happening sequentially, others simply seem to be breaking down the effects of a seal into several trumpets, and a trumpet into vials, while all along, other things are happening...the 7 Thunders, and the 3 woes, which do seem to match with specific Trumpets, rather than being seperate scenes of other happenings within the Revelation of Yeshua to John.

I for one would like to first know if the seals are already opened, when they opened, and if so, which ones? And also, is the First seal an image of Christ going forth at the time of His visitation, His ressurection, or is it an image of the AntiChrist?

And also, please specify by what you mean for the 'Day of the Lord'. Are you speaking of the 'Day of Jacob's Trouble'? Or just the vials being poured out upon the world?

And which 'Wrath of God' do you speak of, the 'Tribulation of the Last Days' which punishes the living wicked, or the entire 'Wrath of God' which is the final 'White Throne Judgement', which doesn't occur until the Millenium is over.

Well, that's pretty much the Pre-Wrath Rapture idea you yourself have agreed to.

The harpazo event is about the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, a change to the "spiritual body" he mentioned there. He contrasted that "spiritual body" with the body of flesh corruption we have today.

That change happens for ALL ... that are alive upon the earth at Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord". The main difference between the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" is the unjust will not have 'put on immortality' through Christ Jesus.

That change is what God's consuming fire on the day of The LORD is about per 2 Peter 3:10, burning man's works off the surface of this earth with Christ's coming "as a thief".

 

[Questor]

Well, that's pretty much the Pre-Wrath Rapture idea you yourself have agreed to.

The harpazo event is about the change at the twinkling of an eye Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, a change to the "spiritual body" he mentioned there. He contrasted that "spiritual body" with the body of flesh corruption we have today.

That change happens for ALL ... that are alive upon the earth at Christ's coming on "the day of the Lord". The main difference between the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" is the unjust will not have 'put on immortality' through Christ Jesus.

That change is what God's consuming fire on the day of The LORD is about per 2 Peter 3:10, burning man's works off the surface of this earth with Christ's coming "as a thief".

Veteran, I respect your knowledge...you seem to have said that you have only received knowledge from the Ruach haKodesh, and the Scriptures.

I have stayed away from all men's churches, since my baptism at 15, as they seem only to have their own customs and beliefs. I then searched everything...the occult, the natural, the spirituality of the east, including the ideas of the ascetics. Then the teachings of Evangelicals, the Puritans, and the Roman teachings, then finally, only scripture, and the Ruach haKodesh, and the forums in whch men debate doctrine.

I believe that Yeshua was raised as a spirit body, that has power to take on human form, as Yeshua so plainly did.

I believe that we are raised accordingly, in incorruption, in spirit, and in power, else we cannot be like Yeshua.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
1 Cor 15:35-50 (KJV)

Christ was raised in Spirit, yet had body and bone, and could be handled and felt by any He allowed to touch Him. And yet, He appeared or disappeared at will, having no need to open a door. He simply assumed a psysical shape, just as Angels often do.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)


As to being prewrath, I never heard of that position until I ventured into a Reformed Bookstore, and although better than any pre-trib seperate rapture schemes, it does not seem to cover all the elements of the Parousia.

Please, do not make assumptions about my beliefs, but answer my plain questions plainly, and if I state something that is incorrect in your belief, pleasd be specific with the Scripture, line by line, precept by precept, or we will end up attacking what we think the other said, rather than what is in Scripture.

I see no evidence of everyone, dead and alive being raised to face the wrath of God unless you are skipping the extra 45 days in the time line, the Jewish Remnant repenting, then also the Millenium, and going straight to the White Throne Judgement.

If that is your position please say so, then explain what the Kingdom of God is, that Yeshua speaks of so plainly, and that the Jews are casting their belief towards, Yeshua in Majesty as King of Kings on earth.

Peter speaks of the Day of the Lord, which is at the end of the Millenium, not the Parousia, which occurs just before the 45 days that follow the tribulation, where the Jews are focused upon, in the Day of Jacob's Trouble.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
and exhorts them to holiness of life
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:8-18 (KJV)

 

[teleiosis]

So you think the Day of the Lord is at the Millennium. And you do not associate Christ's coming with that, but put that after the one 'seven' and the 30 days... and you don't associate the Day of the Lord with the time of Jacob's trouble: very strange indeed.

Everyone is entitled to their own way of thinking; no one has to be right though.

Your belief that Jesus was "raised" as a "spirit body" (your words) is also very strange to me. To say He only "took on human form" is not quite right either.

What "quest" are you on?

 

[Questor]

So you think the Day of the Lord is at the Millennium. And you do not associate Christ's coming with that, but put that after the one 'seven' and the 30 days... and you don't associate the Day of the Lord with the time of Jacob's trouble: very strange indeed.

Everyone is entitled to their own way of thinking; no one has to be right though.

Your belief that Jesus was "raised" as a "spirit body" (your words) is also very strange to me. To say He only "took on human form" is not quite right either.

What "quest" are you on?

Uh, oh...I have offended already, and I wasn't even trying to. I try to keep the nasty ink away from my writings, so I'm not really sure what is troubling you. I thought I was just being plain.


I am seeing an overdependence here on labels.


So you think the Day of the Lord is at the Millennium. And you do not associate Christ's coming with that, but put that after the one 'seven' and the 30 days... and you don't associate the Day of the Lord with the time of Jacob's trouble: very strange indeed.

The Day of the Lord in my mind is wrath being poured out, in the seals, trumpets, thunders, and vials.

The Day of Jacob's Trouble is when, just after the Tribulation, they see Yeshua in the air, and total comprehension is given them of what is going on, while they are being attacked by the forces of the AntiChrist. The Remnant of Israel is in hiding, in the 'sheepfold' protected by YHVH.

How the unbelieving among the Jews not in the remnent, if they have not taken the mark, are treated by Yeshua, is not clear to me as yet. I believe that they may get to be in the Millenium, since I believe there is one. Those believing Jews will be in the air, meeting Yeshua, along with the just resurrected dead in Christ.

However, I have heard those that are amillieniel, call the White Throne Judgement the Day of the Lord, and used the Day of the Lord shortcut phrase, hoping to find out his stance. I was asking Veteren in a round about way, wheher he was amillianiel.


What "quest" are you on?


Oddly, I thought I was being upfront about what I wanted, since you all seem to know each other's timeline's intimately, since you rarely put out a quote to underly your opinion.


I want to know why Veteran see's us in the Fifth trumpet, when I have no scripture to show me that the first seal is even open.

If the first seal is open, and I am in ignorance, I really would like to know. I am not unwilling to learn.


By the way, how do I turn on the editing features of your reply box?


Q

 

[tgwprophet]

Questor wrote: " Having read the entire thread twice, I find myself stymied. Each of you on this thread have knowledge, some of which may not contradict each other if it were properly explained by each of you. "

I agree with you on this point... and some other points as well.

Questor, I don't think you can edit someone else's post. But, to edit your own post... move your cursor to the bottom right on your post. If it is available, just to the left of " Multiquote " you should see " Edit " show up under your cursor. Click on it.

OH yeah!!!.... and Merry Christmas to you and yours.

 

[Trekson]

Pre-wrath believes that the signs that precede the Day of the Lord are those of the 6th seal. I believe the Day of the Lord begins with 7th seal/1st trumpet judgment, goes through the latter part of the 70th week, extends itself all the way through the millennium and concludes with the GWTJ.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, I respect your knowledge...you seem to have said that you have only received knowledge from the Ruach haKodesh, and the Scriptures.

I have stayed away from all men's churches, since my baptism at 15, as they seem only to have their own customs and beliefs. I then searched everything...the occult, the natural, the spirituality of the east, including the ideas of the ascetics. Then the teachings of Evangelicals, the Puritans, and the Roman teachings, then finally, only scripture, and the Ruach haKodesh, and the forums in whch men debate doctrine.

Yeah, I've been through much of that too, as I was raised in the Church but not baptized until 40. I've also had the opportunity to travel along with getting into various fields of study. But most of that is irrelevant, because like Peter showed, no prophecy in God's Word is of any private interpretation.

I believe that Yeshua was raised as a spirit body, that has power to take on human form, as Yeshua so plainly did.

I believe that we are raised accordingly, in incorruption, in spirit, and in power, else we cannot be like Yeshua.

I believe what God's Word reveals about it, not what we would like to think about it. There's more Scripture witnesses to show that Christ's resurrected body was different after His resurrection than those where some doubted He had risen and He told them to touch Him and feel. There are many Scriptures that require searching before The Holy Spirit will put them all together in our mind for understanding. Even understanding about God's image in the Heavenly per Gen.1 is a requirement for this matter. So I could continue this subject and it would require much writing here to only barely touch upon it.

Christ's body was transfigured, our flesh bodies won't be. When He appeared to His disciples, suddeny appearing in their midst with the doors and windows shut, that did not mean His resurrection body suddeny took on "human form" in order to do that. The outward image likeness of man originates from the heavenly, not from the flesh. We're given Scripture witnesses of angels along with Christ in Abraham's day on earth eating man's food, and the children of Israel eating manna from Heaven.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
1 Cor 15:35-50 (KJV)

Christ was raised in Spirit, yet had body and bone, and could be handled and felt by any He allowed to touch Him. And yet, He appeared or disappeared at will, having no need to open a door. He simply assumed a psysical shape, just as Angels often do.

The idea of assuming a physical shape is a convention of fleshy men, not a Biblical convention. Like Gen.1:26-27 reveals, the outward image likeness of man originates from God's Own Image in the heavenly, not from flesh. The majority still struggle with this idea of what type body the resurrection is, even after Paul clearly revealed it in 1 Cor.15 and 2 Cor.5. Even our Lord Jesus revealed that those of the resurrection are as the angels of God in Heaven. Therefore, the resurrection body is actually an angelic type body. One of the problems many have is with wordly thinking having programmed them to think an angelic type body is a ghost. It's simply a body of the other dimension of existence, the heavenly dimension, and we will not fully understand it until we either die, or we are changed at Christ's coming.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)


As to being prewrath, I never heard of that position until I ventured into a Reformed Bookstore, and although better than any pre-trib seperate rapture schemes, it does not seem to cover all the elements of the Parousia.

The Pre-Wrath theology is a modern invention. Like the Pre-trib Rapture theory, it assumes The LORD is not able to protect His people on earth while handing out discipline upon the wicked in their midst. And by that they have gotten away from quite a few Scripture examples of how God showed He is able to hand out punishment upon the wicked with His faithful right in their midst and not being harmed. The hot firey furnace in the Book of Daniel is a major example for us, as it relates to God's consuming fire that will end this present world time at Christ's coming.

Please, do not make assumptions about my beliefs, but answer my plain questions plainly, and if I state something that is incorrect in your belief, pleasd be specific with the Scripture, line by line, precept by precept, or we will end up attacking what we think the other said, rather than what is in Scripture.

I'm not making assumptions, to hold to the idea that we must be raptured prior to God's cup of wrath being poured out is... the Pre-Wrath theological position of man.

I see no evidence of everyone, dead and alive being raised to face the wrath of God unless you are skipping the extra 45 days in the time line, the Jewish Remnant repenting, then also the Millenium, and going straight to the White Throne Judgement.

I don't see that either, reason is because only the wicked suffer God's wrath, and not those in Christ Jesus. Doesn't mean the Church that remains on earth until Christ's coming has to be taken off the earth for that though.

With that 45 days idea, I assume you're speaking of the Dan.12 Scripture, the 1290 and 1335 day periods? The latter half of the one seven is 1260 days. Christ's return is at that end point of that latter 1260 day period. That is when God's cup of wrath is poured out, on the "day of the Lord". The 45 days from 1290 to 1335 is later, after the wrath event, after Christ has returned. The day Christ returns that begins the first day of His Millennium reign. After the thousand years is God's great white throne judgment. Then the new heavens and a new earth Eternity.

If that is your position please say so, then explain what the Kingdom of God is, that Yeshua speaks of so plainly, and that the Jews are casting their belief towards, Yeshua in Majesty as King of Kings on earth.

With the blessed are the barren parable Christ mentioned in Luke, it shows deceived Jews will not repent to Christ until the time of the end with His coming. The 6th Seal events reveal this also (OT prophets reveal it also). As long as the coming pseudo-Christ is at work here on earth, the unbelieving will remain blinded.

Peter speaks of the Day of the Lord, which is at the end of the Millenium, not the Parousia, which occurs just before the 45 days that follow the tribulation, where the Jews are focused upon, in the Day of Jacob's Trouble.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
and exhorts them to holiness of life

The "day of the Lord" is... the time of Christ's second coming and gathering of His Church, and the pouring out of His wrath upon the wicked. THAT is... the timing of the 2 Peter 3:10 verse of the elements burning up on that day. The Greek word for "elements" there does not mean earthly material elements. It's a word put for a 'worldy order', man's works on the earth.

As God destroyed man off the earth with a flood in Noah's days, so likewise with Christ's coming but with fire this next time. The main difference is it will produce the 'change' at the "twinkling of an eye" that Paul was speaking of. This is why our Lord Jesus said in Rev.16:15 that He comes "as a thief", and why both Apostle Paul and Peter linked the "day of the Lord" with that "as a thief" metaphor. The idea originates in the OT prophets like Isaiah, where God speaks of the events coming suddenly, at an instant.

 

[Questor]

Major Blessings to you, Veteran, for being so careful in your reply...I seem to agree with the majority of what you are saying, however, I will have to go line by line, which unfortunately takes me some time. Still, I wanted to thank you, before starting work on a reply.

It is, as I feared, a matter of terminology messing up communication.

I still do not know how you interpret what is what is in the Seals and Trumpets...is there a thread where the lot of you have hammered this out that I can go to? I searched under Seals, and found no plain explanation of which Seal happened when, and why the conclusion was reached.

Since I have a few people who rely on me to do the research, and find the explanations of what happened, in your view, and others, that matched worldwide events to the seals, and how the Trumpets are involved, I need to pull on more learned brothers who have their opinion set, and backed by scripture, and knowledge of events.

I had an idea we were somewhere in the Fifth Seal, awaiting the next major events as new Believers are sealed by the Ruach haKodesh. In regards to the Trumps, I had assumed they occurred sequentially within the opening of the Seventh Seal, with the Vials within the Seventh Seal happening after the Parousia, which I think is the only time we are csught up into the air.

I had assumed that the sealing of the witnesses protected us from the Trumps, Thunderings, and Woes because we are needed to be witnesses during the Tribulation, the last 42 months of the final seven year sequence in Daniel’s Seventy Sevens (Heptads).

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 7:1-17 (KJV)


It appears, however that we are not sealed against the AntiChrist, except as YHVH allows. If a perfect witness is needed, I presume that a Believer or two or me, are going to publically teach against taking the mark, will then refuse to take it themselves, and will die for it.

I then see the Parousia, the resurrection of the dead, caught up in the air to meet Yeshua, along with any living Believers. If Shadach and Co. were protected by Yeshua from mere fire, I see no difficulty of Yeshuakeeping us around for the vials to be poured out. I do see them coming rather all at once, as the wrath of YHVH is poured out on the rest of the world.

After that, I see the finishing up of the Kings of the Earth, and the repentence of the surviving Jewish unbeliever’s, and any others that refused the mark of the Beast, and stayed alive. Then basically I see a lot of cleanup, as the Millenium begins.

I do not think there will be a lot of unmarked individuals, which leaves a few sheep, and many goats to be separated out by Yeshua, which is why our witness is going to be so important as soon as the mark of the Beast is announced.

If this is the Pre-wrath viewpoint, I am glad to have found a term to use for speaking with those who believe in the pretib rapture.

I welcome your thoughts, and that of others.

Q


P.S. Which browser do the fonts and colors, etc. work in?...obviously, not in I.E.8!


P.S.S

Aha!!!

Veteran!

Found the explanations in the thread "Events to come". I have a few questions, of course...who wouldn't?

Lots more to read, digest, and write a screed on!!!!!


Q

 

[veteran]

Major Blessings to you, Veteran, for being so careful in your reply...I seem to agree with the majority of what you are saying, however, I will have to go line by line, which unfortunately takes me some time. Still, I wanted to thank you, before starting work on a reply.

Blessings to you too brother.

It is, as I feared, a matter of terminology messing up communication.

I still do not know how you interpret what is what is in the Seals and Trumpets...is there a thread where the lot of you have hammered this out that I can go to? I searched under Seals, and found no plain explanation of which Seal happened when, and why the conclusion was reached.

Since I have a few people who rely on me to do the research, and find the explanations of what happened, in your view, and others, that matched worldwide events to the seals, and how the Trumpets are involved, I need to pull on more learned brothers who have their opinion set, and backed by scripture, and knowledge of events.

I had an idea we were somewhere in the Fifth Seal, awaiting the next major events as new Believers are sealed by the Ruach haKodesh. In regards to the Trumps, I had assumed they occurred sequentially within the opening of the Seventh Seal, with the Vials within the Seventh Seal happening after the Parousia, which I think is the only time we are csught up into the air.

Sorry, I can't put you on a specific thread where I may have covered all the Seals, or Trumpets, or Vials. I have done that to a certain degree, but I can't say where.

It's the 5th Trumpet that hints towards a sealing for those in Christ. The 5th Seal is about a delivering up, which suggests Christ's elect already having been sealed by that point. I believe the sealing for our generation today is specifically in prep for the tribulation period.

I do not hold to the order for the seals, trumpets, and vials you speak of, which actually is... the order they were given to Apostle John by vision. That is also the order which both the Pre-trib and Pre-wrath schools abide by, but they both insert a rapture into the Scripture at some point where there is no mention.

Study in the OT prophets helps with the proper order of the seals, trumpets, and vials, since Revelation pulls certain events directly from the OT prophets. But the main help is Christ's Olivet Discourse where He gave only 7 signs for the end, the final one being the sign of His coming and the "day of the Lord" events. I rely on the events to understand the proper order, not the sequential layout you're speaking of that most rely on instead. We know the last 3 trumpets are in order, since 3 Woe periods are attached with each one of those, so that's a special emphasis our Lord Jesus wants us to understand.

I had assumed that the sealing of the witnesses protected us from the Trumps, Thunderings, and Woes because we are needed to be witnesses during the Tribulation, the last 42 months of the final seven year sequence in Daniel’s Seventy Sevens (Heptads).

Per that Rev.7 chapter, God's sealing is in order to not be deceived during the tribulation. The first sign our Lord Jesus gave was about deception, and that's the main area of battle for the end. The Seals open information about the end, the Trumpets are like a battle order of events, and the Vials show judgments. Yet Christ only gave 7 signs for the end in His Olivet Discourse when His disciples asked Him about the end time events. If you add up the seals, trumpets, and vials that's 21 signs, so how does one contrast that to the 7 signs He gave in His Olivet Discourse? Simple, in His Revelation He gave 3 sets of events for the same 7 signs, expanding on what He was covering in His Olivet Discourse.

It appears, however that we are not sealed against the AntiChrist, except as YHVH allows. If a perfect witness is needed, I presume that a Believer or two or me, are going to publically teach against taking the mark, will then refuse to take it themselves, and will die for it.

I feel that our Lord Jesus has, and still is preparing those of His that are to give a major witness by The Holy Spirit during the tribulation period, which is also what the sealing is about. I don't believe everyone is going to be delivered up to councils and synagogues to give that testimony for Him, since Paul revealed some of Christ's Church will remain alive on earth all the way up to His coming, and those are sealed too, which again shows God's sealing is against temptation from Paul's "strong delusion".

I then see the Parousia, the resurrection of the dead, caught up in the air to meet Yeshua, along with any living Believers. If Shadach and Co. were protected by Yeshua from mere fire, I see no difficulty of Yeshuakeeping us around for the vials to be poured out. I do see them coming rather all at once, as the wrath of YHVH is poured out on the rest of the world.

That I think many are confused about. All the 7 Vials are about God's wrath really, but the specific event of God pouring out His cup of wrath on the "day of the Lord" timing (per the OT prophets like Zeph.3:8), that cup is specifically reserved for the day of Christ's return. With the Daniel hot firey furnace example, Christ was seen in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and they were not harmed. Yet the king of Babylon's servants got incinerated by just coming near the furnace. That serves as an example of God's consuming fire being poured out upon the earth on that day, as per the OT prophets. That's actually what the final vial being poured out into the 'air' represents. That shows Christ's servants can be right in that fire and it will not touch them.

After that, I see the finishing up of the Kings of the Earth, and the repentence of the surviving Jewish unbeliever’s, and any others that refused the mark of the Beast, and stayed alive. Then basically I see a lot of cleanup, as the Millenium begins.

Notice towards the end of Zech.14 there are some of the nations that come up against Jerusalem that will be left to bow to Christ during His future reign. I don't want to say who among the wicked will be destroyed at Christ's coming, but some will be, which is what the 7,000 of Rev.11 also reveals. Scripture like Rev.3:9 reveals the wicked will bow to Christ throughout His Milennium reign.

I do not think there will be a lot of unmarked individuals, which leaves a few sheep, and many goats to be separated out by Yeshua, which is why our witness is going to be so important as soon as the mark of the Beast is announced.

If this is the Pre-wrath viewpoint, I am glad to have found a term to use for speaking with those who believe in the pretib rapture.

The specific point of a Pre-Wrath belief is that of a rapture of the Church to Heaven prior to the event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the earth. The main problem with that idea is how the change at the twinkling of an eye event per Paul is to occur on the day of Christ's return, which is "day of the Lord" timing. That means a rapture is not possible until that "day of the Lord" timing, which is when our Lord Jesus returns "as a thief in the night," and also is when His wrath is poured out upon the earth. So the Pre-Wrath position is jumping the gun slightly, while the Pre-Trib position is jumping the gun way too early.

I welcome your thoughts, and that of others.

Q


P.S. Which browser do the fonts and colors, etc. work in?...obviously, not in I.E.8!


P.S.S

Aha!!!

Veteran!

Found the explanations in the thread "Events to come". I have a few questions, of course...who wouldn't?

Lots more to read, digest, and write a screed on!!!!!


Q

Glad to be of help.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran Wrote: " The specific point of a Pre-Wrath belief is that of a rapture of the Church to Heaven prior to the event of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the earth. The main problem with that idea is how the change at the twinkling of an eye event per Paul is to occur on the day of Christ's return, which is "day of the Lord" timing. That means a rapture is not possible until that "day of the Lord" timing, which is when our Lord Jesus returns "as a thief in the night," and also is when His wrath is poured out upon the earth. So the Pre-Wrath position is jumping the gun slightly, while the Pre-Trib position is jumping the gun way too early. "

As a Believer in "Pre Wrath" maybe I should first explain what I consider that wrath to be. The wrath requiring protection is Satan making the Mark of the Beast manditory. Is it a rapture of the Church? No... It is the rapture of those that could not deny the Beast's Mark for whatever reason. Is this rapture prior to God'scup of wrath... a very little undecided... but most likely not of consideration of God's wrath at all, only Satan's wrath as per the Beast's Mark. An so, the twinkling of an eye event creates no disturbance with any movement of God. It rains on the just and unjust alike... explains why God's wrath is not a reason for the rapture, Who the rapture is used explains why it is not the church.

Other, perhaps All Other pre-wrathers may fall into the category as you spelled out Veteran, I however, do not follow their beliefs and do not fall into their gategories. To be clear... I am not a pre-trib rapture believer either nor a post-trib believer.