ALL TIMELINES NEED TO BE REVISED

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, teleiosis.

The Messiah does not prevail by military might or strength any limited time covenant.

One does not "prevail (by military might or strength) a limited time covenant." The word is an INTRANSITIVE verb, not a transitive one! You're not using the word correctly! Okay, since you are UNWILLING to do the work, SOMEONE should for the sake of those who are reading along. I'll be that SOMEONE:

The Random House Webster's College Dictionary says this:

prevail
intransitive verb
1. to be widespread or current; exist generally.
2. to appear or occur as the most important or frequent feature or element; predominate.
3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually followed by over): to prevail over one's enemies.
4. to succeed; become dominant; win out.
5. to use persuasion or inducement successfully (usually followed by on or upon): Can you prevail on him to go?

Here are some simple sentences that use the word:

Liberty and justice prevail in the USA. = Liberty and justice are widespread in the USA.
God said, "I shall prevail!" = God said, "I'm going to predominate!"
The LORD shall prevail over haSatan. = The LORD shall prove superior to the Enemy.
And, the LORD prevailed! = And, the LORD won out!
So, God prevailed upon Pharaoh to remain stubborn. = So, God persuaded Pharoah to remain stubborn.

The Hebrew word "gavar," which you said is "gabar" (although the "bet" is a "vet" because it is undotted with the dagesh), is defined by Webster's NewWorld Hebrew Dictionary as...

gavar/ -rah/ -artee
verb
overpowered; defeated; (present gover; future yeegbor)

The pronoun inherent in the 3rd person singular conjugation of gabar does indeed refer back to the last person mentioned in Hebrew grammar.

Yes, it does. However, this cannot refer to "naagiyd" because "naagiyd" ("of prince") is NOT BEING USED AS A NOUN IN THE SENTENCE!!! It serves as an ADJECTIVE modifying the word "`am" ("people") answering the question "WHICH people?" as our prepositional phrase "of prince" does. Which "people"? The "people" "of the prince!" Since it is not a noun in the sentence, it cannot be the "last person mentioned!" The "last person mentioned in Hebrew grammar" is "MASHIACH" or "MESSIAH!"

(I wouldn't keep trying if you weren't important to me.)

 

[teleiosis]

He forced a covenant upon many for one 'seven.'

Jesus did not do that. You can't show that ANYWHERE ELSE in the Bible. Yet you want to say it is so.

Waltke says your interpretation of Hebrew grammar is in error. The antecedent is the last person mentioned, that is is the prince (a noun) further defined by the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary. Interpreting the 3rd person singular of the Hiphil for gabar to a Roman source then has Daniel 9:27 in agreement with Daniel 2 whereby the last Kingdom of man which has sway over Israel is destroyed by Jesus as being Rome.

gabar in the Hebrew in Daniel 9:27 is in the Hiphil stem showing a causative action. It is not an intrasititve verb, hence, I will revert back to my original "to force" because "to confirm" loses the meaning of gabar in translation as the verb is commonly used today.
_______________________________________

The first and second woe are both recorded after they occur. The third is not except in Rev. 12:12. To deny that is not taking scripture at face value. Will it mess with your timeline? Yes!, but you can't deny it and assume something else when no other woe is recorded in scripture.

There is a change of scene and focus between Revelation chapter 11 and 12.
At the end of chapter 11, we are in Heaven after Jesus'; second Advent, judging the wicked (the captured anti-Christ and false prophet) and rewarding the Saints.
At the beginning of chapter 12, we are seeing the birth of Christ at Jesus' first Advent and the event whereby He is born and murder is attempted take place on earth.

Further, for another indicator of parallel accounts, we go from the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Rev 11:1-13 (which has the same end as v.19 in chapter 11) which has both halves of the one 'seven' to chapter 12 with its two mentions of the same timeframe - the second half of the one 'seven.'

Chapter 12 is in parallel to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of the Sidebar account).
Chapter 12 include two, twin parallel accounts. The first focuses on natural Israel the nation; the second focuses on Satan.

Rev 12:12 is not the third Woe. It comes before the Great Tribulation where the anti-Christ turns his attention to eliminating the Christians.

 

[Elle]

Hi Trekson,

You said:
"As we all know the highlighted, underlined phrase means 3 1/2 yrs. So here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week. That is in no one's timeline that I have ever heard. It's playing havoc with mine, that's for sure.

So I've spent the day trying to make sense of this and asking God for understanding. I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative. Please I'm asking for some serious guidance here and not a mockery by those who are unwilling to bend in the face of revealed truth.

Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?"

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 4th seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week?

What do you guys think? Serious answers only, please."

Actually, the red highlighted text above, is exactly what I believe. I posted this same belief on another discussion. You can view after my outline what I said. Here is what I believe, but it is not set in stone. I believe the 4 horsemen started out 2000 years ago, first at a walk, then a trot, then a canter and finally a gallop into our time. I believe the 1st through 5th trumpets are blown between seals 4 and 5. Seal 5 depicts the souls under the altar which to me are those who died in the past up until our time. They are told to wait until their fellowservants and brethren were killed as they were. These fellowservants and brethren would be the 144,000 and the great multitude. When the 5th trumpet sounds Abaddon and his demons are released, they are told to hurt only those who do not have the seal of God. This proves the 144,000 are still on the earth at this time. This is also the last mention of those who are sealed, unless you take into account the 2 witnesses who I believe are the 144,000. I also believe that the 2 witnesses die in Babylon (USA), not literal Jerusalem. Babylon is called the "great city" and that great city is New York. The United States as a whole is Great Babylon and New York is the great city of Babylon. I believe the 2 witnesses could die either literally on the streets of New York or figuratively. By this I mean it would be from N.Y. that their dead bodies are televised out of N.Y. to the whole world. I know the scriptures say "where also our Lord was crucified". Just as Jerusalem of old was where the false Jews of Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 dwelled, so is New York today the nest of the serpent seed. Think spiritually, not literally. Anyhow the prophesy of the 2 witnesses is tied to the 6th trumpet, for right after they ascend the angel says in Revelation 11:14 that the 2nd woe is past and the 3rd is coming quickly. I believe the man child that ascends up in Revelation 12:5 is the same as the 2 witnesses/144,000. Their resurrection is the sign of the Son of man as stated in Matthew 24:30. Their resurrection and Yeshua's 2nd coming, also foretold in the same passage, are separated by 3.5 years give or take. It could be between the 6 and 7th trumpet that the 30 extra days of the 1290 come into play. Anyhow, once they ascend Satan is cast out to go after the remnant of the woman's seed. This is the 7th trumpet, the 3rd woe. Here is an outline to explain how I see it:

Seals 1-4
Sealing of the 144,000
Trumpets 1-5 Catastrophes and 1st woe
Seal 5 - Souls under the altar
Trumpets 6 &7, 2nd and 3rd woes
7 thunders - 3.5 years of Great Tribulation
Seal 6 - Return of Yeshua
7 Vials - God's wrath
Great White Throne/Resurrection/binding of Satan/1000 years/release of Satan/Gog/devours nations with fire/eternity.

• 
  

http://www.christian...st-mean-to-you/

What I said in another discussion:
"Yeshua receives his kingdom when he is brought before the Ancient of days (Daniel 7:13) which occurs at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 12:10). Now you may not agree with me, but the 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, but Revelation seems to be quiet on what exactly that 3rd woe is, until you do a word search for the word "woe". The only woe mentioned that is not tied to a trumpet is the casting out of Satan as depicted inRevelation 12:12. We know the 5th and 6th trumpet are the 1st and 2nd woes, the last time the word "woe" is ever mentioned in Revelation is in Revelation 12:12 when Satan comes down to us which must also tie in with his being cast out in Revelation 12:9. So, if Yeshua takes control of the kingdom at the same time Satan is being cast down, then this means Yeshua is given the kingdom and officially made King before the last 3.5 years of the entire 7 year tribulation, which is known as the Great Tribulation, even starts."

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Trekson.

Hi Retro, I see it this way. For the average printed work I would agree with you, however, I believe the bible is different. God foreknew that the majority of folks throughout history would be non-jews and as such I believe it is written in a manner that all peoples from all languages could easily understand without an advanced study in Hebrew and Greek. If we believe the bible is inspired "by God", than all the concern about coming from "eastern thought" is unnecessary and we should, for the most part, take it as meaning what it seems to mean, but that doesn't eliminate the necessity of a Strong's, ie as "translators" weren't always as accurate as they could have been and words don't always mean what we believe them to mean at first glance.

Secondly, I don't believe Christ accomplished what you seem to believe He did in vs.27, thus disqualifying Him for being a contender for "he".

First, with regard to your statement, "At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week," I'm with Elle, except that I would have worded it differently. (Again, that's a simple case of symantics.) The first six shofars or warning sirens are concluded WITHIN the middle of the 70th week, and before the last half of the 70th week starts. If you understand number lines as time lines, it might look like this:

First half of Seven...(2000-yr gap = "tribulation" on Jews)...Last half of Seven
<-----[--------]-------------------------------...---------------------------------(---------]-------->

(They say, "A picture's worth a thousand words.") The trumpets are just before the parenthesis. The first opening square bracket was Yeshua`s baptism. It was also soon after this that Yeshua` first presented Himself as the Messiah in the Temple by overturning the money-changers' tables. The first closing square bracket represents when Yeshua` declared them "desolate" and was soon after crucified. The opening parenthesis represents Yeshua`s second coming, and the second closing square bracket represents when Yeshua` calls all those in exile back home to Isra'el and He takes His rightful place as Isra'el's King

He was BORN the "King of the Jews," already selected ("mashah") by God, thus the "Messiah" ("Mashiach"), and that's how He died, as it was written above His head on the cross. He will return STILL "King of the Jews," but must become (1) King of Isra'el and then (2) King of kings or World Emperor, as He grows His Empire throughout the Millennium!

Second, He DID accomplish the things written of Him, prophesied about Him, in Dani'el 9:27!

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:...

In Hebrew this is...

Dani'el 9:27
27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaavuwa` echaad...

Vhigbiyr = And-he-increased/strengthened
briyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
echaad = one

And he strengthened a covenant to many one seven...

He strengthened the Davidic covenant by being obedient to undergo baptism. By being ritually cleansed, the Father was satisfied and the Spirit of God came upon Him for proof that He was God's Anointed, God's Mashiach, God's Messiah, God's Selection for King. (Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22 cff. 1 Chronicles 22:9-10; Psalm 89:20-29)

And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...

Vachatsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zebach uwminchaah...

Vachatsiy = And-halfway/in-middle
hashaavuwa` = of-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-cease
zebach = sacrifice
uwminchaah = and-gift/donation

And in middle of the seven he shall cause to cease sacrifice and donation,...

He DID cause the sacrifice and the donation to cease at His death by fulfilling the ULTIMATE Sacrifice! He offered His own body on the cross and shed His own blood, causing the veil in the Temple between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies to rip down the middle from the top to the bottom! (See Matthew 27:50-54.) This ended the need for sacrifices from God's point of view. (See Hebrews 9:1-10:22.) God would no longer accept the sacrifices of animals; therefore, He caused the sacrifice and the donation to cease! Even if the priests continued to offer sacrifices for the next 40 years, God no longer accepted them. After all, whose perspective defines reality, mankind's or God's?!

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,...

V`al knaf shiquwtsiym mshomeem...

V`al = And-above/over/upon/against
knaf = an-extremity/a-wing/a-flap
shiquwtsiym = of-abominations
mshomeem = he-shall-make-desolate...

And upon an extremity of abominations he shall make desolate,...

Because of their continual rejection of Him - their abominations - He DID make them desolate! (See Matthew 23:37-39.)

even until the consummation,...

v`ad kaalaah

v`ad = and-as-far/long/much-as
kaalaah = a-completion/an-end

and-as-long-as a-completion,...

We have witnessed and can testify to the stubbornness of the Jewish people who are adamantly Yeshua` the Messiah; therefore, we are STILL WITHIN the desolation of the Jews! It will not be until they can say, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH" (translated in the KJV as "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord") that He will return.

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

vnecheraatsaah `al titakh shomeem.

vnecheraatsaah = and-that-decided
`al = above/over/upon/against
titakh = shall-flow-forth-upon
shomeem = [the]-desolated

and that decided against (the desolated) shall flow forth upon the desolated.

Until the Messiah returns, God's verdict against the Isra'elis and Jews will remain in effect and all that God has decreed against them will be poured out on them, the desolated.

Third, God inspired the Holy Scriptures as penned by the authors and they has been preserved by well-meaning, well-intensioned translators and scribes (transcribers) of God's Word, but AT NO TIME are we promised that ANY translation or interpretation of the Bible would be so inspired! They are HUMAN attempts to preserve God's Word, and even though God preserves His truth within the pages of the Holy Bible, they are NOT the Bible as written, word for word! Furthermore, there's no such thing as a perfect translation (nope, not even the KJV) because there's no such thing as a perfect one-to-one translation from one language into another! What we DO have are VERY GOOD COPIES of the Bible, even in the Greek and Hebrew versions!

Therefore, the deeper we want to understand God's Word, the more we need to learn the original languages and study the most ancient of copies that we have with the preponderance of evidence in agreement, because every time God's Word changes hands from human scribe to human scribe and human translator to human translator, more and more human error is injected! (It's called informational thermodynamics.) Even with the BEST of intentions, human error can't be helped! For instance, some translators will come along (or have already come along) and added a phrase here or there that says "this means ...." They MEAN (or MEANT) well, but what if they were wrong in their assessment of that passage of Scripture?! Then, they have ALTERED God's Word to mean what it didn't mean at all! They thought they were helping and really ended up HINDERING God's Word!

No, when God had his authors pen the various books of the Bible, they did so with their own perspectives, languages, cultural backgrounds, idioms, and phrasings that made them particularly unique! Therefore, even the WAY they would say things and report historical events (including visions of prophecy) would be unique to the individual. We can see that importance had more priority than chronology, particularly in the OT; however, even in the NT, these people, who were Jews, were also of similar mindset.

 

[veteran]

Hi Folks, As I was praying and studying the Word, God pointed out something to me that I must have read a thousand times but never made the connection until today. Let me first say that this in no way backs up my timeline POV. In fact, it destroys it just as it will if you're pre-trib, pre-wrath or post -trib, if you're willing to accept the truth of God's word. We all have our little timelines that we create to make sense and put in order the events of the 70th week. Well, this nugget will assuredly destroy them all. Perhaps you think I'm being overly dramatic, well you tell me. The topic is the Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - "[sup] [/sup]And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The 2nd Woe is NOT after... the 6th trumpet. The great earthquake, etc., happens DURING the time of the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period...

Rev 11:11-15
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither." And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Verse 14 is simply saying the events of the 2nd Woe - 6th trumpet is past, and with its ending the final 3rd Woe - 7th trumpet comes quickly thereafter...


15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
(KJV)

What MUST happen for all the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of The LORD and His Christ, and He then reigns over all those kingdoms from that point to eternity? Christ's 2nd coming back to this earth, of course.


Trekson on other threads has refused to accept that the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe timing is when our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming happens per the Rev.11 Scripture. That's why he's trying to find a way AROUND the Scripture instead of simply heeding IT as written. It's because of the doctrines of men that he is desiring to hold onto involving the Pre-Wrath theological seminary position.

 

[Trekson]

Vet, I'm still pre-wrath and haven't claimed differently but this is not away around your 7th trump, 3rd woe scenario. If one takes God's word as written, your eschatolgy falls flat and needs to be tossed out. As was scripturally shown the 7th trump sounds and the third woe commences before the middle of the 70th week. Denial of this fact just makes one sound egotistically desperate clinging onto straws of false theology. Those who aren't hung up on spiritual pride will just ask God for more answers, others will just blather on about things that have been proven wrong. So instead of blustering about how correct you think your view is, why don't you just pitch in and help figure out the truth. You're obviously a man that does his homework and I respect that but blindly clinging to something that has been proven wrong is just, weird.

 

[veteran]

Vet, I'm still pre-wrath and haven't claimed differently but this is not away around your 7th trump, 3rd woe scenario. If one takes God's word as written, your eschatolgy falls flat and needs to be tossed out. As was scripturally shown the 7th trump sounds and the third woe commences before the middle of the 70th week. Denial of this fact just makes one sound egotistically desperate clinging onto straws of false theology. Those who aren't hung up on spiritual pride will just ask God for more answers, others will just blather on about things that have been proven wrong. So instead of blustering about how correct you think your view is, why don't you just pitch in and help figure out the truth. You're obviously a man that does his homework and I respect that but blindly clinging to something that has been proven wrong is just, weird.

What, you didn't think I would catch your false claim with your saying, "The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake..."?

You said:

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The 2nd Woe is tied TO the 6th trumpet. It begins at Rev.9:13 and ends at Rev.11:13. That whole... 6th trumpet period is the 2nd Woe period. All the events of Rev.9:1 up to Rev.9:13 are the 1st Woe.


Rev 8:13
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
(KJV)

That "by reason of" phrase is Greek 'ek' which is a preposition denoting origin. The Woes are because of the EVENTS that occur within each trumpet period.

 

[teleiosis]

Whereby is it written that the Last Trumpet assembling the Elect is the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath?
Does it not come with the sixth Seal, which comes after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation, which gathers up the Great Multitude which suddenly appear in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence?

Does the second Woe come after the earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:1-13? Or is that a sidebar account which is injected in when the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 are interrupted and John is told not to write?

Does not Rev 11:14 re-introduce the interrupted timeline at the point it left off, the passing of the second Woe, and literally skips all mention of any desolation associated with the third Woe and instead goes directly to the conclusion of the one 'seven' with the same earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 -> Rev 11:19?

How can the second Woe be "tied" to the sixth Seal? Don't all seven Seals must be broken in order to open the Scroll? They are sequential, listed in the linear order in which they occur. To say otherwise is to make the Bible say what you want it to say - in this case to support a "last day" Post-Trib eschatology.

How can we know the "last day" is the last day of the one 'seven' when no one can know that Day?

 

[Trekson]

Vet, Your words: "What, you didn't think I would catch your false claim with your saying, "The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake..."?" The 2nd Woe is tied TO the 6th trumpet. It begins at Rev.9:13 and ends at Rev.11:13. That whole... 6th trumpet period is the 2nd Woe period. All the events of Rev.9:1 up to Rev.9:13 are the 1st Woe."

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along or what? I think scripture is quite clear that the three woes begin with the 5th trumpet. You can't go back willy-nilly and claim that the first four trumps are part of the 1st woe! There's no scriptural justification for backwards thinking. The 5th trump is the 1st woe and ends at the beginning of the 6th trump! The 1st woe only consists of the 5th trump and nothing else! The 5th trump, 1st woe only consists of Rev. 9:1 - Rev. 9:11. The 6th trump is the 2nd woe and ends when the scripture says it does, after the Jerusalem earthquake. The 6th trump, 2nd woe begins at Rev. 9:13 and ends at Rev. 11:13.

Your verse: " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound."

This clearly show that the three woes are tied to the last three trumpets only. They are the "voice of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound." The sounding of the 5th, 6th and 7th trumps which ALL occur before the midpoint of the 70th week. These are not long term events (periods). The only thing we know for sure is that the 1st woe lasts for 5 months, Rev. 9:5.

Your words: "The Woes are because of the EVENTS that occur within each trumpet period."

If you're speaking of the obvious last three trumps 5-7, I agree.

 

[veteran]

Whereby is it written that the Last Trumpet assembling the Elect is the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath?
Does it not come with the sixth Seal, which comes after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation, which gathers up the Great Multitude which suddenly appear in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence?

A simple look back to Rev.9 about the 6th trumpet events ought to clear that up easily. They are not signs of Christ's return and gathering of His elect. The Rev.11:1-10 events are 6th trumpet timing also, which show clearly Christ's coming is not in that period, but right after it with the final 3rd Woe.

Does the second Woe come after the earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:1-13? Or is that a sidebar account which is injected in when the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11 are interrupted and John is told not to write?

The great earthquake in Jerusalem at Rev.11:13 is still 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe timing. Read the Rev.11:14 verse.

Does not Rev 11:14 re-introduce the interrupted timeline at the point it left off, the passing of the second Woe, and literally skips all mention of any desolation associated with the third Woe and instead goes directly to the conclusion of the one 'seven' with the same earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 -> Rev 11:19?

The mention in Rev.11:14 that the 2nd Woe is past, and the 3rd Woe is coming next very quickly is just what it says. The 7th trumpet - final 3rd Woe comes quickly right after the ending of the 2nd Woe period. That's not suggesting the insertion of a delay, it's a warning about the final Woe happening with Christ's coming.

How can the second Woe be "tied" to the sixth Seal?

Tied to the 6th trumpet, not the 6th seal. Did I say 6th seal in previous posts? I don't think so. But in other posts I did link 'certain' events given on the 6th seal of Rev.6 with the 6th trumpet events. And I gave plenty of hints as to how and what that link is. The 6th seal is covering events of both the 6th trumpet and the 7th trumpet.

Don't all seven Seals must be broken in order to open the Scroll? They are sequential, listed in the linear order in which they occur. To say otherwise is to make the Bible say what you want it to say - in this case to support a "last day" Post-Trib eschatology.

Since Christ is opening each Seal and showing the events of each Seal after each one is opened, what does that show? The Seals are given to impart information about the events of the end, not necessarily the specific order. We run hard into that fact with the 6th Seal events at the end of Rev.6 which covers the time of Christ having returned, yet the final 7th Seal isn't even mentioned yet at that point.

Rev.6 should be fairly easy to know that the order of the seals there are not all in sequential order. The very first sign given there is about the rider on the white horse that conquers. Whether one believes that's Christ on the white horse, or the Antichrist, neither come on the first seal. I think we've had this discussion before about the fallacy of trying to make the way John was given the visions as the exact ordered sequence of the events.

How can we know the "last day" is the last day of the one 'seven' when no one can know that Day?

It's because when the 'last day' of this world comes, we all... will know... it is the 'last day'. Thus knowing about Daniel's final "one week" periods and events doesn't mean knowing the exact final day it will happen.

 

[Trekson]

Vet, Your words: "We run hard into that fact with the 6th Seal events at the end of Rev.6 which covers the time of Christ having returned, yet the final 7th Seal isn't even mentioned yet at that point."

It's not "hard" at all, it's just the one of the "proofs" of the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture.

 

[teleiosis]

Veteran: Rev 11:1-13 contains both halves of the one 'seven' - Rev 11:1-13 is not the sixth Trumpet's "timing" no matter what you say.

Christ's coming is not mentioned at all in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11. That does not mean His parousia does not happen then; an omission of an event in a sequence of events is not a commission of an error.

The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 happens at the end of the one 'seven.' It is matched by parallel accounts which also show the "end" of the one 'seven' in Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18-19. The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 is not the sixth trumpet desolation no matter what you say.

The sixth Seal does not portray events of the sixth Trumpet and the sixth Bowl no matter what you say.

The seven Seals come in their numbered order and they are set in that order as well by the linear narrative no matter what you say to the contrary. You have inverted and pulled Revelation inside-out to make your eschatology work - which means it doesn't work - no matter what you say.

Your eschatology dictates a last day of the one 'seven' "last day." Trying to squirm out of that dicotomy whereby your eschatological position comes up against what Jesus said and shatters into a thousand pieces means what you say doesn't matter at all.

Are 5000 posts trying to browbeat everyone else into your way of thinking working? I don't think so. If I don't answer, it doesn't mean you win. It just means that arguing with you isn't edifying at all to me.

 

[revturmoil]

Christ's coming is not mentioned at all in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11. That does not mean His parousia does not happen then; an omission of an event in a sequence of events is not a commission of an error.

Really? Does the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 have a backpack? OR! Is it that...That does not mean he does not have a backpack then; an omission of an event(item) in a sequence of events is not a commission of an error.
An event as tremendous as the Lord's return would certainly be mentioned in God's Word between Revelation chapters 4-11 if it were to happen there...BUT IT IS NOT!

You need a HERMENEUTIC!

The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 happens at the end of the one 'seven.' It is matched by parallel accounts which also show the "end" of the one 'seven' in Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18-19. The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 is not the sixth trumpet desolation no matter what you say.

That I agree with since the earthquake is part of the second woe. And it say's in verse 14 that the "second woe is past." And... the seventh and last trumpet isn't sounded until verse 15. Common sense and logic can go a long way in understanding these things and a small part of a good hermeneutic!

The sixth Seal does not portray events of the sixth Trumpet and the sixth Bowl no matter what you say.

That I agree with too. I've asked veteran several times to show me how he arrived at that conclusion but he never has. Maybe it's the #6 that throws him!

 

[teleiosis]

I have no use for someone's criticism that my hermeneutics are wrong when they so badly butchers Hab 1:9 in their signature line so as put words in the prophet's mouth. What you have done "kaotic-profit" is unacceptable.

No singular linear narrative contains all the events which transpire in the end-times. The fact that the Great Multitude suddenly show up in Heaven with the breaking of the sixth Seal after John has been a faithful court reporter and has listed those in attendance in God the Father's Court in the Temple in Heaven - begs the question of HOW they got there - out of the Great Tribulation! The answer is the Rapture.

Furthermore, the break of scene AND focus separates Rev 11:1-13 from the rest of the Seal/Scroll chronology, the broad overview of the end times, in Revlation chapters 4 through 11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses - which just happen to include the WHOLE of the one 'seven' with its respective halves, told in linear, sequential order and has the "end" of the one 'seven' in v. 13.

Repeated events, like the FIVE mentions of one half of the one 'seven' between Revelation chapters 11, 12 and 13 -AND- the four times we find the "end" of the one 'seven' in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:13, Rev 11:19, Rev 16:18, and Revelation chapter 19 which also concludes the battle of Armageddon said to start in chapter 16) -- are indications of parallel account construction in conveying complex events and timelines in the Bible.

That you and veteran don't get it, can't see it, and probably never will is not a reflection of the truth of the matter. You're so blind to any thinking other than your own, your mind is completely closed to any other idea.

 

[veteran]

Vet, Your words: "We run hard into that fact with the 6th Seal events at the end of Rev.6 which covers the time of Christ having returned, yet the final 7th Seal isn't even mentioned yet at that point."

It's not "hard" at all, it's just the one of the "proofs" of the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture.

You're just... not thinking.

The 7th Seal isn't even mentioned until the Revelation 8 chapter.

Especially, IF you want to follow the Revelation flow sequentially as written, then you MUST keep to the idea of the Seals being in order. I've shown the fallacy of trying to do that in my coverage of the seals, trumpets, and vials. So it's not 'my' requirement, but that of others here instead, and I believe you're one of those who tried to make that requirement. You're above statement reflects that fallacy, because it's going against that ordered concept you've held to about the flow of the seals, trumpets, and vials.

Veteran: Rev 11:1-13 contains both halves of the one 'seven' - Rev 11:1-13 is not the sixth Trumpet's "timing" no matter what you say.

The 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe events BEGAN back at Revelation 9:13.

Rev 9:12-14
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
(KJV)

The 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet period is NOT past until the Rev.11:13-14 verses...

Rev 11:14-15
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)

How is it you've not understood that the last 3 trumpets and the 3 woes are chronological, and DIVIDES the events given in between each one of them???

The only difference is the Rev.10 chapter, which is a parenthetical type chapter supplying specific information that when the 7th trumpet sounds, it's all over, and... the concept of John being called to 'take' The Book into his heart and mind to prophesy to many peoples. (For those not aware, the idea of 'parenthetical' is like something put in parenthesis to give more detailed info about a matter, like I did right here).

Christ's coming is not mentioned at all in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11. That does not mean His parousia does not happen then; an omission of an event in a sequence of events is not a commission of an error.

I didn't know any... of the Seals were given in any chapters other than Rev.6 and 8. So the idea that anything about the Seals are given in those other chapters doesn't work, regardless of your argument that Christ's coming isn't mentioned in any of them.

As to Christ's coming being in any in the Rev.4 thru 11 chapters, you're definitely wrong about that. If an event is mentioned in those chapters that we 'know' only takes place AFTER Christ's second coming, what then? Your argument falls.

Just so happens, there's events there that only occur AFTER Christ's second coming which ARE mentioned within the Rev.4 thru 11 chapters. Can they come to pass without Christ's coming first? No, of course not. The events of the 6th Seal of Rev.6:14-17 is one huge... case in point. To miss this point is to not 'rightly divide' God's Holy Writ as given.

How many times must I remind folks about the way Revelation is written down? The timelines of the events are scattered throughout... the whole Revelation Book! It's too bad that we cannot treat our Lord's Book of Revelation like a sequential building manual with the events in a simple 1,2,3... sequence. That's not how He showed the events to John. And I'm glad our Lord Jesus did scatter a lot of the timelines, because it means we MUST stay in all of His Word to know how the order fits together. Instead what are most doing? They haven't gotten the ordered flow from the OT prophets, Gospel Books and other NT Epistles first where our Lord Jesus gave it, and instead think they can just go right into Revelation and understand its proper flow by itself.

The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 happens at the end of the one 'seven.' It is matched by parallel accounts which also show the "end" of the one 'seven' in Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18-19. The earth-changing earthquake of Rev 11:13 is not the sixth trumpet desolation no matter what you say.

The Rev.11:13 "great earthquake" in Jerusalem is the same "great earthquake" of Rev.16:18 on the 7th vial. The 3rd final Woe of Rev.11:15 rides upon that great earthquake. The timing written there is given in a very quick sense for those events happening with the ending of the 2nd Woe and beginning of the 3rd Woe. But yet, the 7th TRUMPET - 3RD WOE doesn't occur until the 2nd Woe is OVER!

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)

v. 13 = 2nd Woe - STILL 6th Trumpet timing.
v. 14 = 2nd Woe is passed (6th Trumpet events OVER); 3rd Woe next...
v. 15 = BOOM! 3rd Woe comes with the 7th TRUMPET!

How is it you cannot understand that the 6th Trumpet is a PERIOD of time, as also the 2nd Woe is linked to it? The trumpets and woes MARK the beginning and ending of their given events. If you can understand all the events given right after the 4th Seal mean 4th Seal timing and NOT 5th Seal timing, then why can't you grasp that same idea with these last 3 Trumpet - 3 Woe time periods? Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or can you just not see that?

The sixth Seal does not portray events of the sixth Trumpet and the sixth Bowl no matter what you say.

That's not the topic we're actually discussing at the moment. That's another subject. The subject is... the 5th Trumpet and 1st Woe as the 1st Period of time, the 6th Trumpet and 2nd Woe as the 2nd Period of time, and the 7th Trumpet and 3rd Woe as the final or 3rd Period of time. And all... the events given in between them, the whole starting back in the Rev.8 chapter and continuing to the end of the Rev.11 chapter.

The seven Seals come in their numbered order and they are set in that order as well by the linear narrative no matter what you say to the contrary. You have inverted and pulled Revelation inside-out to make your eschatology work - which means it doesn't work - no matter what you say.

There comes that "linear narrative" term again. Such terms mean nothing when understanding the flow of our Lord's Book of Revelation. Parts of it are linear, parts of it is in parallel, and you used both of those terms. So is it a 'parallel linear narrative'? How does such terms help those here that are trying to understand?

What you reveal with your ignorant mocking is that you don't really have a clue as to the proper order of the Revelation events, but instead are after MONEY with pushing your BOOK of nothing but more... of the traditions of men! Done too much work in one direction per men's traditions to back out now, haven't you?

 

[Trekson]

Veteran: You are so close to the truth you could spit in it's eye but you are blinded by one false piece of prophecy you cling to like a man on a life raft. Once you can find it within yourself to get rid of the false notion that the day of the Lord is on the last day of the 70th week, the sequentialness of Revelation makes a whole lot more sense. As you seem to admit the signs of the 6th seal hail the coming of the day of the Lord. Instead of recognizing that fact you make up a scheme in which events parallel each other and bringing the 6th seal to the end of the 70th week just to justify your stubborn adherence to the last day of the 70th week being the day of the Lord.

It has been scripturally shown to you how that doesn't work. The day of the Lord is an extended period of time not one 24 hr. day. The defs. in the Greek and Hebrew all back that up. The day of the Lord begins with the 7th seal goes through all seven trumpets, through all seven vials and continues on with Armageddon and doesn't end until the GWTJ.

Also the notion that the earthquake of Rev.11:13 is the same one as the 7th vial one is without foundation. This earth is going to be rocked by several monumental earthquakes during the 70th week. To believe all the earthquakes spoken of are a singular event isn't logical nor does it show common sense.

 

[veteran]

Veteran: You are so close to the truth you could spit in it's eye but you are blinded by one false piece of prophecy you cling to like a man on a life raft. Once you can find it within yourself to get rid of the false notion that the day of the Lord is on the last day of the 70th week, the sequentialness of Revelation makes a whole lot more sense. As you seem to admit the signs of the 6th seal hail the coming of the day of the Lord. Instead of recognizing that fact you make up a scheme in which events parallel each other and bringing the 6th seal to the end of the 70th week just to justify your stubborn adherence to the last day of the 70th week being the day of the Lord.

Got a news flash for you bro, I've always held that the "day of the Lord" happens with the end of the final 70th week. One can easily see that by the chart I made for the flow of Daniel's final "one week" in the threads discussing it.

You might want to 'check' your wording above, because you first admit agreement that the 6th Seal contains "day of the Lord" event timing (which I've taught all along), and then you reverse and infer I'm creating some scheme that destroys that.

So which do you believe, that the Rev.6:14-17 verses are "day of the Lord" timing as it's showing there or not? Since the "day of the Lord" time events are given in that 6th Seal at the end of the Rev.6 chapter, and then in Rev.8 with the 7th Seal there's a period of silence, what do you think that's revealing? It's showing that Christ has come, and it's all over for the wicked on this earth. When that event begins, it means the first day of Christ's Milennium reign. If that's not showing a parallel of the 7 signs for the end that our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse in alignment with the 7 trumpets and 7 vials written of later, then I don't know what is. Can we find the same events of those Rev.6:14-17 verses in parallel with the final trumpet in Rev.11? Yes. Can we also find the same events in Rev.16 in parallel with the final vial? Yes.

It's because of what's contained within the events given that causes this relationship between the seals, trumpets, and vials. It's not something I've made up like you're wrongly suggesting.

It has been scripturally shown to you how that doesn't work. The day of the Lord is an extended period of time not one 24 hr. day. The defs. in the Greek and Hebrew all back that up. The day of the Lord begins with the 7th seal goes through all seven trumpets, through all seven vials and continues on with Armageddon and doesn't end until the GWTJ.

The only thing most have shown about it here is that they still... do not understand what I'm talking about; mainly because of their NOT keeping to what's actually in the events given in the seals, trumpets, and vials. Case in point: when I mention the Rev.16:15 verse given within the 6th Vial timing, where our Lord Jesus is giving a warning to His Church that He's coming "as a thief", and others want to say the Church is already raptured by that point, then what and who are they following? Men's traditions instead of the actual written Scripture there. They're kind of like old people with their comfortable things they don't want to give up, following whatever denominational organizational system teaching is more important to them than what the actual Scripture is stating there. Being in that state is a mark of what Apostle Paul taught in the Rom.11 chapter about those of God's people that have been 'blinded' with the "spirit of slumber", a lethargic mind-sleep.

Also the notion that the earthquake of Rev.11:13 is the same one as the 7th vial one is without foundation. This earth is going to be rocked by several monumental earthquakes during the 70th week. To believe all the earthquakes spoken of are a singular event isn't logical nor does it show common sense.

It's not IF one marks the type of events given on that 7th trumpet and the 7th vial. My foundation on that is the Scripture foundation Itself which The LORD gives by that comparison. By the time the 7th trumpet comes, it's over. By the time the 7th vial comes, it's over. Both are about the time of Christ's coming and taking over reign upon this earth, literally. It takes more time to read about the sequence of events there than the time it takes for them to occur, very quickly.

 

[mark s]

As we all know the highlighted, underlined phrase means 3 1/2 yrs. So here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week. That is in no one's timeline that I have ever heard. It's playing havoc with mine, that's for sure.

Hi Trekson,

I'm finally just reading this thread. I came to this same conclusion some years ago. The logic is sound. And there's no reason why this does not allow for the pre-70th week rapture.

So I've spent the day trying to make sense of this and asking God for understanding. I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative. Please I'm asking for some serious guidance here and not a mockery by those who are unwilling to bend in the face of revealed truth.

Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 4th seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week?

What do you guys think? Serious answers only, please.

My view . . . the seals are opened all at once at the very beginning of the 70th week, and the opening of the 6th seal corresponds to the great earthquake in Ezekiel 38, that begins in Israel.

The 7th seal begins the 70th week. The first trumpet corresponds to the destruction of the Gog/Magog invaders. And on it goes.

Love in Christ,
Mark

BTW . . . to whomever . . . I'll not engage in discussion with anyone who chooses to comment on me personally - how well I can think, whether I do or don't understand, can or can't read, have a mind like a cucumber, and so forth. I have no patience for that. If you want to engage with me on this topic, show some respect.

 

[veteran]

Hi Trekson,

I'm finally just reading this thread. I came to this same conclusion some years ago. The logic is sound. And there's no reason why this does not allow for the pre-70th week rapture.

Since you're just throwing out that tradition of men about a pre-70th week rapture, then you must prove it Biblically.

I can prove it is not a Biblical idea, but a tradition from men, those who began it in some Churches in the 1830's in Britain, like Edward Irving, Darby, and then later Schofield in America.

And all I need do is point to Christ's warning to His Church on earth within the 6th Vial timing of Rev.16:15.

 

[mark s]

Since you're just throwing out that tradition of men about a pre-70th week rapture, then you must prove it Biblically.

I can prove it is not a Biblical idea, but a tradition from men, those who began it in some Churches in the 1830's in Britain, like Edward Irving, Darby, and then later Schofield in America.

And all I need do is point to Christ's warning to His Church on earth within the 6th Vial timing of Rev.16:15.

Hi Veteran,

Since you've already decided that I'm just parroting someone's "tradition", and since you've already concluded that I'm wrong, there's nothing for us to discuss, is there? And especially as I'm not particulary interested in convincing you of my view.

Since you are already ignoring my request for a respectful discussion, in that you denigrate my statements as "just throwing out that tradition of men . . .", and not considering that it could actually be the results of my own careful, thoughtful, and Spiritual study, our conversation doesn't look like it's going to have a long shelf life.

Concerning Rev. 16:15 . . .

You would have to demonstrate that this is directed to the people on the earth at that time, and not to the reader of the prophecy in advance of that time.

You would have to demonstrate that, if this first condition be proven, that those on the earth at the time to whom it is (presumably) directed, are the New Testament Church as addressed in the letters such as Ephesians, Romans, and even in the first chapters of the Revelation, as opposed to, say, the Israelites for whom the time of affliction is intended to save.

Given that you could prove these first two items, you would have to then go on to demonstrate that somehow this concept precludes the notion that any Christians could be removed before that time, particularly by being caught up to Jesus.

Personally, I don't see how you could prove these things, but . . . maybe you'd like to . . . for whomever may be interested.

BTW . . . it's "Scofield".

Love in Christ,
Mark