Am I wrong

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Marymog

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no but I don't recall either of us telling you that you had to believe some ersatz fact did we? Atleast i hope not
OK....soooo neither you, he or I are not the arbiter of Scripture......who is? It stands to reason if you KNOW that the three of us are not then you MUST know who is. ;)

Scripture makes it clear that there are false teachings and sound doctrine. If what he is saying is sound doctrine then that means he is not a false teacher. Since you agree with him on this issue then you must believe he is not a false teacher and he has sound doctrine.

What say you?

Mary
 

Marymog

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no but I don't recall either of us telling you that you had to believe some ersatz fact did we? Atleast i hope not
If neither of you are the arbiter of Scripture why should I listen to you?
 

FHII

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There is no such thing as "baptizing by teaching". There is no such thing as being baptized by being immersed in Christ. Your theory is not based on Scripture.

Matthew 3:11 KJV
I [John] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [the spirit of truth], and with fire :

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 11:16 KJV
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:3 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized [immersed] into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 KJV
For as many of you as have been baptized [immersed] into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 5:26 KJV
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Peter 3:21 KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5 KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I would say these verses say otherwise. You may say the last two aren't speaking of teaching, but they certainly aren't talking about water.

In every instance of baptism in Scripture there was first the teaching to convince (convert) and then once they believed (were converted) they were baptized....WITH WATER! Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 16, Acts 22
Ok... Let's have a look:

Acts 2:38,41 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Two in Acts 2 an there is no mention of water.

Acts 8:12-13,16,36 KJV
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [36] And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Three in Acts 8; one mentions water.

Acts 10:47 KJV
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

One in Acts 10 which mentions water.

Let me cut to the chase... Neither Acts 19 or 22 mention water either, and you list is far shorter than every time someone was baptized. Even in that short list, you are 2 for 8!

Once again, I have no problem with water baptism. I have acknowledged it was done. I have no problem with those who are compelled to be baptized with water. I say in that case you should be.

I have a problem with the doctrine that says you must be water baptized. Are you saying if you aren't that you aren't really saved and not a Christian?
 
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FHII

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Since you agree with him on this issue then you must believe he is not a false teacher and he has sound doctrine
Are you accusing me of being a false teacher?
 
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Truth

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Hi Truth,

Can you please give the passages from Scripture that buttress points 1-4?

Points #2 and #4 are foreign to me.

Mary

Hebrews 6:2- Paul states that there are Baptisms?
Matthew 3:11 John states - I indeed baptize you with water unto 1. repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to loose. He will Baptize you with 2. the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 10: 48 - And He [Peter] commanded them to be baptized in the 3. NAME pf the LORD {Identification]
Matthew 20:22 Are you able to drink the cup that I [Jesus ] am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am Baptized with?
Verse 23 Jesus states that these two brothers will indeed drink His cup, and be baptized with His Baptism! What Cup, what Baptism - Suffering and death. All the Apostles and many other's suffered as He did, Persecutions, and death!-4
 
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bbyrd009

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OK....soooo neither you, he or I are not the arbiter of Scripture......who is? It stands to reason if you KNOW that the three of us are not then you MUST know who is. ;)

Scripture makes it clear that there are false teachings and sound doctrine. If what he is saying is sound doctrine then that means he is not a false teacher. Since you agree with him on this issue then you must believe he is not a false teacher and he has sound doctrine.

What say you?

Mary
i say that water has other connotations, as well as "baptize," but there is no sin in adhering to the ritual if you choose to read literally there. I might ask where your ritual for a baptism of fire is, or how is it you did not know I was not talking about bread, but again i am not your arbiter either. This is really about he who says he knows, does not imo.
If neither of you are the arbiter of Scripture why should I listen to you?
exactly, yes.
 

CharismaticLady

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My husband and 4 kids moved to a small town in Tennessee a few years ago. We had always attended Calvary Chapel but none here. We have tried a bunch of churches but they always reject me because I was not baptized properly.

I was born to parents that actively hated the church God, Jesus w extreme passion. I can say that I was born to love Christ. Even as a tiny girl, I can remember secretly reading my bible. I contribute this to a praying MIL but another story...my dad was very violent, like a trip to the ICU at age 3 violent. I was baptized at 15 at a football game by sprinkle and I really was putting myself in a lot of danger doing that.
Fast forward 30 years..everytime we try to join a church, they say I need to be baptized. I feel baptized..and my baptism came at personal cost that few will ever know and meant more to me accordingly. Getting baptized again makes me want to vomit, my skin crawls when idiots tell me that this extremely important spiritual moment where God spoke to me w prophetic news that came true was all a lie and God is a liar.
I quit trying to even go to church bc my husband would get so mad when they rejected me and then none went to church. Am I wrong not to go to church? Should I just take a bath in sanctuary to make idiots happy?

I believe you are baptized in water. Can I ask who baptized you at a football game? Sounds interesting.
 

Marymog

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Matthew 3:11 KJV
I [John] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [the spirit of truth], and with fire :

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 11:16 KJV
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:3 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized [immersed] into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 KJV
For as many of you as have been baptized [immersed] into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 5:26 KJV
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Peter 3:21 KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5 KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I would say these verses say otherwise. You may say the last two aren't speaking of teaching, but they certainly aren't talking about water.
Thank you.

In Matthew 3 John taught THEN he baptized. Two different events that do not support your baptism by teaching only.

Matthew 28 says teach and THEN baptize. Two different events that do not support your baptism by teaching only.

Acts 11 refers how when he "began to speak" the Holy Ghost fell upon them which supports baptism by teaching.

It seems you are suggesting that "immersed" in Romans 6 and Galatians 3 and Ephesians 5 means being immersed in the teaching only. That theory nullifies all other passages about WATER immersion but supports baptism by teahing.

1 Peter 3:20 references being saved by water which is the "like figure" in vs 3:21 which supports water baptism.

The Revelation passage you referenced has nothing to do with baptism by word or water so I fail to connect your dots.

Baptism is not by water alone, nor the word alone. They should be united, not pitted against one another. Even though these passages conflict it does not invalidate one or the other. The new birth in water baptism was the result of the word being implanted earlier.

Scripture sometimes uses the same image for different aspects of divine truth. The Church is said to be built on the foundation of Christ (1 Cor 3:11), AND the apostles and prophets (Eph 2:20, cf. Rev 21:14), AND Peter in particular (Mt 16:18). The image of a lion is applied to both the Lord and the devil.

I agree with you that there is a "baptism" by teaching. However there is ALSO a baptism by water and both are necessary for salvation.....Just like Scripture says.

I hope I have clarified what Scripture and Christianity has taught for 2,000 years. I am not disagreeing that there is baptism by teaching. I incorrectly said "There is no such thing as "baptizing by teaching". I left out the word "ONLY" and I apologize for that. It muddied the water!

Mary
 

Marymog

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Ok... Let's have a look:

Acts 2:38,41 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Two in Acts 2 an there is no mention of water.

Acts 8:12-13,16,36 KJV
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [36] And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Three in Acts 8; one mentions water.

Acts 10:47 KJV
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

One in Acts 10 which mentions water.

Let me cut to the chase... Neither Acts 19 or 22 mention water either, and you list is far shorter than every time someone was baptized. Even in that short list, you are 2 for 8!

Once again, I have no problem with water baptism. I have acknowledged it was done. I have no problem with those who are compelled to be baptized with water. I say in that case you should be.

I have a problem with the doctrine that says you must be water baptized. Are you saying if you aren't that you aren't really saved and not a Christian?
Thank you.

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus, the Apostles and the NT Christians practiced/preached water baptism. Jesus told his Apostles to baptize. Jesus was our example to follow. He set the example and he taught to baptize with water. The Apostles were our example and teachers. They set the example and water baptized.

The historical writings from the 1st Century Christians show that they followed this example and practiced what was taught; water baptism. They taught/believed that water baptism was necessary.

You and many others have decided not follow His example. You believe you know better than the NT and 1st century Christians.....and I can not figure out why.

I am not "saying if you aren't (water baptized) that you aren't really saved and not a Christian". I am only telling you what Scripture says and what has been taught for 2,000 years: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). And St. Paul tells us that this new birth through baptism is salvific, stating that God “saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). And again in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

This has been the teaching of Christianity for 2,000 years and you appear to be rejecting it. Instead you accept the teachings of the men who disagreed with the reformers since you belief is only about 500 years old. :(
 

Marymog

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i say that water has other connotations, as well as "baptize,".
Really???

Would you care to share those passages about water and baptism in Scripture that have "other connotations"?

Or in those other "connotations" are you referring to "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (water and Spirit) OR how the ark went through the water and a dove (representing the Spirit) hovered overhead with an olive branch (water and Spirit) OR how the nation of Israel was saved by passing through the WATER of the Red Sea with the cloud and fire of the Holy SPIRIT overhead (water and Spirit) OR how Ezekiel describes what the New Covenant will look like and he said we will be sprinkled with clean WATER and his SPIRIT will be placed in us (water and Spirit).


You know....kind of like the John 3:5 connotation????;)

Mary
 

bbyrd009

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and obviously imo, yes; how is it you did not know that I was not talking about bread?
The spiritual symbolism of water is available in Scripture, and imo your literal understanding of Baptism as a ritual breaks down...ha, well, at the precise point you will not address, for one, that being that you have no ritual for the Baptism of Fire?
Would you care to share those passages about water and baptism in Scripture that have "other connotations"?
wadr no, as you are not here to hear anything, Mary, no offense meant. I have abs no problem with you believing in ritual baptism, ok? I did it too, twice i think, mostly bc of ppl like you insisting about stuff they "knew." I'm not sorry for either one, they were a part of my walk, and i dont even counsel against ppl who feel the desire to do so getting ritually baptized any more; rituals are not worthless, after all imo
 
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Marymog

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and obviously imo, yes; how is it you did not know that I was not talking about bread?
The spiritual symbolism of water is available in Scripture, and imo your literal understanding of Baptism as a ritual breaks down...ha, well, at the precise point you will not address, for one, that being that you have no ritual for the Baptism of Fire?
wadr no, as you are not here to hear anything, Mary, no offense meant. I have abs no problem with you believing in ritual baptism, ok?
Got it....you have ZERO passages from Scripture to back up your opinion.

Thank you for your time....I am sorry I wasted mine. :(
 

bbyrd009

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Got it....you have ZERO passages from Scripture to back up your opinion.

Thank you for your time....I am sorry I wasted mine. :(
yes ty BoL
how is it you did not know
is Scripture, whether your scribes have scribed it out of the DRB or not, and of course we all know that you will never acknowledge the Baptism of Fire, as long as it does not comport with your beliefs, right. So bam just toss it or ignore it or whatever, and perceive yourself as having won this discussion, if thats all you are after anyway?
 

bbyrd009

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Matthew 3:11 KJV
I [John] indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [the spirit of truth], and with fire :

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 11:16 KJV
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Romans 6:3 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized [immersed] into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Galatians 3:27 KJV
For as many of you as have been baptized [immersed] into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 5:26 KJV
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

1 Peter 3:21 KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5 KJV
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I would say these verses say otherwise. You may say the last two aren't speaking of teaching, but they certainly aren't talking about water.


Ok... Let's have a look:

Acts 2:38,41 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Two in Acts 2 an there is no mention of water.

Acts 8:12-13,16,36 KJV
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [36] And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Three in Acts 8; one mentions water.

Acts 10:47 KJV
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

One in Acts 10 which mentions water.

Let me cut to the chase... Neither Acts 19 or 22 mention water either, and you list is far shorter than every time someone was baptized. Even in that short list, you are 2 for 8!

Once again, I have no problem with water baptism. I have acknowledged it was done. I have no problem with those who are compelled to be baptized with water. I say in that case you should be.

I have a problem with the doctrine that says you must be water baptized. Are you saying if you aren't that you aren't really saved and not a Christian?
nice :)
 
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Marymog

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yes ty BoL
how is it you did not know
is Scripture, whether your scribes have scribed it out of the DRB or not, and of course we all know that you will never acknowledge the Baptism of Fire, as long as it does not comport with your beliefs, right. So bam just toss it or ignore it or whatever, and perceive yourself as having won this discussion, if thats all you are after anyway?
What is the fire in Matthew 3:11?

I haven't won this discussion since you still hold fast to your false beliefs. I will have only won when you stop!
 

FHII

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I agree with you that there is a "baptism" by teaching. However there is ALSO a baptism by water and both are necessary for salvation.....Just like Scripture says.
Well, I appreciate that. Whether you are retracting what you said or clarifying your stance,I appreciate it, and accept your apology.

I am not "saying if you aren't (water baptized) that you aren't really saved and not a Christian". I am only telling you what Scripture says and what has been taught for 2,000 years: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). And St. Paul tells us that this new birth through baptism is salvific, stating that God “saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). And again in 1 Peter 3:21: “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Is this your list of scriptures that say water baptism is necessary for salvation? Or are there more verses you would like to submit?
 
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Yehren

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The Catholic Church says that one must be baptized, but besides water, there is the baptism of blood, (those martyred for Him before being baptized) and the baptism of desire, such as that of the Good Thief whose act of faith and desire for God on the cross saved him.

Not every Christian is a Catholic, but I believe the scriptural support for these is very solid.
 

FHII

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Would you care to share those passages about water and baptism in Scripture that have "other connotations"?
I understand bbyrd009's frustration and not wanting to continue. But I will pick up that task and hope he doesn't mind.

First of all, you slightly changed his statement. You said, "Would you care to share those passages about water and baptism in Scripture that have "other connotations"

What he actually said was, "i say that water has other connotations, as well as "baptize," but there is no sin in adhering to the ritual if you choose to read literally..."

The difference is subtile. You are looking for verses that include "water" and "baptism" and asking for "other connotations. Well, in that sense, no there aren't any. If a verse says they were baptized in water it's talking about literal H2O. But that's not what he said. When I read his statement, I see he is saying "water" has other meanings. Likewise, "baptism" has other meanings. He separated the two, but also said he had no problem with "water baptism". I agree.

"Baptism" does indeed have other meanings besides "water baptism". I feel we have come to that understanding. "Water" itself has other connotations as well. There are two great examples: John 4:14 and Eph 5:26. Do you really believe he was talking about literal H2O in these verses? I don't!

Again, people were baptized in water, and in those verses it was talking about literal water. Bbyrd009 and I have both said we have no problem with that. I can't speak for bbyrd, but I don't believe he's suggesting they were baptized in spiritual water in those verses.

But where it can cloud things up is John 3:5, which for me is the closest verse you have to saying water baptism is necessary.

The funny thing about that verse is that it doesn't say we must be baptized in water.