Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

[Ronald Nolette]

A lot of concepts, and traditions, in the church, or Christianity at large, are made out to be more complicated than they really are in a rather successful attempt to withhold power, and knowledge of the Bible, from the common man. Ring any bells? This is a very old tactic used all the way back to the earliest Roman Catholic Church. (Many professions do this as well; medical, mechanical, pharmaceutical, etc.)

Dispensationalism is, in layman's terms, simply the idea/belief that God will 'dispense' specific promises to two different parties at the end of time. The church, or all saved and baptized believers in Christ and God's Word, and the physical nation of Israel.

Is that your basic understanding?

It is very important for Christians to understand this concept because it is what is taught in 99.9% of churches today and less than half of the congregation understand what is being taught, or discussed, when it is presented.

And Amillennialism is the belief that there will be no Millennium time period after Christ's return (Rev. 20) for specific reasons.

I wish some would discuss this topic because it is very important for Christians to understand and/or become familiar with contemplating.

Your understanding of dispensationalism is wrong. And yes Amillenialism does not believe Jesus will establish a physical kingdom on earth upon His return but move right into eternity ( at least the super majority of amills.) This is not biblical but an allegorical reinterpretation of Scripture.

 

[GEN2REV]

35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

Well, this is really interesting because all of those ordinances, the sun, the moon, the sea, all do depart from before God at the second coming of Christ, at the Day of the Lord/Wrath of God.

Matthew 24:29
Isaiah 13:9-11
Revelation 20:11
Revelation 21:1

So if they cease to be a nation at that time, what does that mean?

 

[GEN2REV]

Your understanding of dispensationalism is wrong.

This is not helpful without explanation. What part of my assessment of Dispensationalism is wrong?

And yes Amillennialism does not believe Jesus will establish a physical kingdom on earth upon His return but move right into eternity (at least the super majority of amills.) This is not biblical but an allegorical reinterpretation of Scripture.

Your opinion of this is wrong.

 

[Daniel L.]

The clay is not the Potter.

We are talking about Jesus, so even tho He became clay He still is the Potter:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It all points to Him.

Except in the temple of Matthew 24, because of the abomination of desolation, which can't stand in the "Holy Place" of the Temple of His Body, without it beeing blasphemy. Meaning it can only be in the wordly temple, in the world, not in His Holy Body.

 

[GEN2REV]

the abomination of desolation, which can't stand in the "Holy Place" of the Temple of His Body, without it beeing blasphemy. Meaning it can only be in the wordly temple, in the world, not in His Holy Body.

Are you saying it cannot be in a human physical body that has the Holy Spirit?

 

[ScottA]

We are talking about Jesus, so even tho He became clay He still is the Potter:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Except in the temple of Matthew 24, because of the abomination of desolation, which can't stand in the "Holy Place" of the Temple of His Body, without it beeing blasphemy. Meaning it can only be in the wordly temple, in the world, not in His Holy Body.

No, there are no exceptions.

As for you quoting 1 John 4:3...it was only a few posts back that it was I who pointed out to you that Jesus was fully man (come in the flesh)-- which you denied by your "exception" of the physical temple. So, yes, 1 John 4:3 is a good test and testimony. Unfortunately you have failed it by making exception.

You are not rightly dividing the word of truth, and it is causing error at your every turn.

 

[marks]

Well, this is really interesting because all of those ordinances, the sun, the moon, the sea, all do depart from before God at the second coming of Christ, at the Day of the Lord/Wrath of God.

Matthew 24:29
Isaiah 13:9-11
Revelation 20:11
Revelation 21:1

So if they cease to be a nation at that time, what does that mean?

I don't think you are seeing the point of the passage.

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

I don't think you are seeing the point of the passage.

I don't think you have an honest desire to discuss this.

 

[marks]

I don't think you have an honest desire to discuss this.

OK.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, this is really interesting because all of those ordinances, the sun, the moon, the sea, all do depart from before God at the second coming of Christ, at the Day of the Lord/Wrath of God.

The ordinances of the sun and moon depart? I've never seen that in the Bible. How is it you are certain that the darkening of the sun and moon are not actually within their ordinances? Do you feel that the ordinance of the sun is ended by a solar eclipse? Doesn't that establish the ordinance?

Answering from a different direction here . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't think you have an honest desire to discuss this.

It seems like you want to find some wiggle room in the prophecy. I realize you want to make it work with your view, but that's why I want to uncourage to not come to Scripture that way.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, this is really interesting because all of those ordinances, the sun, the moon, the sea, all do depart from before God at the second coming of Christ, at the Day of the Lord/Wrath of God.

Matthew 24:29
Isaiah 13:9-11
Revelation 20:11
Revelation 21:1

So if they cease to be a nation at that time, what does that mean?

You need to read more carefully. they do not disappear. That happens after the millenial kingdom when the great white throne judgment is set up!
Mt. 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

If one star fell to earth- no more planet and life! Darkened does not mean depart!

Is. 13:

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

YOu are correct about rev. 20 and 21 but that is after jesus reigned on earth for 1000 years.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is not helpful without explanation. What part of my assessment of Dispensationalism is wrong?

You wrote:

Dispensationalism is, in layman's terms, simply the idea/belief that God will 'dispense' specific promises to two different parties at the end of time. The church, or all saved and baptized believers in Christ and God's Word, and the physical nation of Israel.

Now some extreme fringe group may hold this but this is not dispensational theology. We believe that when jesus returns and establishes His kingdom Jews will rule the earth and the church rules from heaven as jesus said. It is not at the end of time but when jesus returns to establish His kingdom.

as for the physical nation- well all of Israel will be saved at the end of the tribulation (the 1/3 that survives as declared in Zech.), and all the resurrected jews of the OT. They are not part of the body of Christ and have a separate promise than does the church. And it is not "dispenses" but a form of how god governs during the Millenial kingdom.

 

[Daniel L.]

Are you saying it cannot be in a human physical body that has the Holy Spirit?

Yes, the abomination of desolation cannot be in the same body as the Holy Spirit. Light and darkness were seperated very early on in the Story. They can't share the temple, 1 John is all about this: either saint or sinner, there is no in between. You can't serve two Masters.

Jesus was fully man (come in the flesh)-- which you denied

The only thing I denied was your blasphemy:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

-The "Human Jesus" was tempted, proving His humanity, yet there is no sin in Him, as John already told us, but this verse proves there is no sin in the "Human Jesus". So, you cannot have the abomination of desolation standing on neither the natures of Jesus, not even on His Human Nature, because He is Fully Holy, King of Righteousness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

His land promises are complete.

The rest of His promises to Israel are to the spiritual race, not the physical. Plenty of scriptures to toss back at ya to prove that when you say go. Most have been worn out in this Forum and seen many times by most, but .... evil doesn't sleep. Neither are we allowed to when it comes to God's Word.

No HIs land promises are not complete. Israel never occupied all the Land god promised to Abraham! In another thread I showed two maps. The land promised to Israel, and the furthest they reached and the two are very different.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your opinion of this is wrong.

Well this is not helpful without you explaining.

 

[GEN2REV]

It seems like you want to find some wiggle room in the prophecy. I realize you want to make it work with your view, but that's why I want to uncourage to not come to Scripture that way.

Nope, I simply want to discuss scripture. You want to find a cop out and evade. I already posted multiple verses to support MY points. You prefer to make opinionated comments with no scripture to support them. There's a real obvious reason for that.

This is nothing new from you, Marks. That's why I normally have you on ignore, but I thought I'd give you a chance to have an honest discussion of scripture. A leopard just never changes its spots.

It's all good, I don't have to discuss it with you.

Take care.

ETA: And for the record, you claimed it was YOUR view to start the discussion - which I didn't buy from the get-go. Once a snake, always a snake.

 

[ScottA]

The only thing I denied was your blasphemy:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

-The "Human Jesus" was tempted, proving His humanity, yet there is no sin in Him, as John already told us, but this verse proves there is no sin in the "Human Jesus". So, you cannot have the abomination of desolation standing on neither the natures of Jesus, not even on His Human Nature, because He is Fully Holy, King of Righteousness.

It is no blasphemy to quote scripture of the full matter, rather than only part as you have done. Thus, you make a false accusation.

I never said that God can be tempted. But the scriptures say that Jesus was tempted. You error, and this you do against the word of God.

 

[GEN2REV]

You wrote:


Now some extreme fringe group may hold this but this is not dispensational theology. We believe that when jesus returns and establishes His kingdom Jews will rule the earth and the church rules from heaven as jesus said. It is not at the end of time but when jesus returns to establish His kingdom.

as for the physical nation- well all of Israel will be saved at the end of the tribulation (the 1/3 that survives as declared in Zech.), and all the resurrected jews of the OT. They are not part of the body of Christ and have a separate promise than does the church. And it is not "dispenses" but a form of how god governs during the Millenial kingdom.

Ok so you didn't mention the land promises to Israel, which I know for a fact is a big deal to Dispensationalists. I guess you didn't want to bring it up because there's been so much evidence presented against it lately. All good.

So when is it that you believe Jesus will establish His kingdom? Because 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 clearly shows Christ returning v. 23, then the end of the world in v. 24 where He delivers up the 'ended' kingdom to His Father and puts down all rule, authority and power.

See, this is why I don't agree with this doctrine because plain scripture refutes it completely. The only way this can be explained away is for somebody to say "Well, those verses don't mean what they say."

That's literally the ONLY way it can be argued against.

V. 25-26 state that He's put all enemies under His feet. So how's the devil gonna be released at the end of 1,000 years after that?

 

[marks]

Nope, I simply want to discuss scripture.

So then support your statement, that a darkened sun is the end of the sun ordinance, and therefore the end of Israel. I don't see that.

you claimed it was YOUR view to start the discussion

I'm not sure what you mean here, but yes, there may have been a misunderstanding. I may have sensed that without realizing fully.

But I never meant to give any other impression than that I understand that Israel as an ethnic people remain so in God's eyes, and that God has made promises to them that He will keep, as He always keeps His promises.

I wonder how much this has to do with my questioning you about the sun and moon ordinances. Maybe unloading on me is easier than supporting that statement. But I truly don't know, and I apologize if I've offended!

Much love!