Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

[GEN2REV]

Did the sun rise this morning? Since there was a morning, that would be a yes. Have you been to measure the foundations of the earth? I'm going to go out on a limb, and say, no, you have not.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Why would you not think God will keep His promise?

Much love!

His land promises are complete.

The rest of His promises to Israel are to the spiritual race, not the physical. Plenty of scriptures to toss back at ya to prove that when you say go. Most have been worn out in this Forum and seen many times by most, but .... evil doesn't sleep. Neither are we allowed to when it comes to God's Word.

 

[Daniel L.]

it is not a legitimate argument to say that Christ is fully God, therefore he can have no sin in Him.

I already argued against sin in the Human Jesus,
When I showed you God cannot be tempted and yet Jesus was tempted, yet without sin:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Human Jesus has no sin. That is why you can't place the abomination of desolation there. He can only carry our iniquities on the outside of Himself, like he carried the cross on His shoulders. Not "in the Holy Place" as you try to present it.

the physical worldly temple was only a foreshadowing

It is already proven that can't be the case, your "foreshadowing" theory comes from you, not Scripture:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, only One is true while all others only point to the One.

Yes, Jesus said to the Jews in the Temple, "destroy this Temple," is true, as we know that the Jews were responsible for destroying the Temple from the historical accounts from that time.

Since this has not yet happened completely, and is still happening, "and in three days {of the Lord} I will rebuild this temple," we can only assume that it will be true when the three days {of the Lord}, has run its full course.

If my memory is not playing tricks on me, I seem to recall, from what I have read, that it was the Jews who set fire to the Temple and then the Romans pulled the stonework of the Temple apart to get to the melted gold that had flowed between the stones of the floor. The evidence of this can be seen in Jerusalem as the Temple is not longer standing where it once was. Now, no stone of the Temple is standing, one upon the other, as Jesus had foretold in Matt. 24.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

A lot of concepts, and traditions, in the church, or Christianity at large, are made out to be more complicated than they really are in a rather successful attempt to withhold power, and knowledge of the Bible, from the common man. Ring any bells? This is a very old tactic used all the way back to the earliest Roman Catholic Church. (Many professions do this as well; medical, mechanical, pharmaceutical, etc.)

Dispensationalism is, in layman's terms, simply the idea/belief that God will 'dispense' specific promises to two different parties at the end of time. The church, or all saved and baptized believers in Christ and God's Word, and the physical nation of Israel.

Is that your basic understanding?

It is very important for Christians to understand this concept because it is what is taught in 99.9% of churches today and less than half of the congregation understand what is being taught, or discussed, when it is presented.

And Amillennialism is the belief that there will be no Millennium time period after Christ's return (Rev. 20) for specific reasons.

I wish some would discuss this topic because it is very important for Christians to understand and/or become familiar with contemplating.

Thanks...I actually looked them up

My understanding was that dispensationalism was one dispensation to the Jews and a different dispensation to the gentiles. Not sure I have/had it right...I'm not really into it. But I am into God (and He in me)...I'm just not that kind of scholar.

As for amillennialism, I guess I understood that correctly. But again, what I know of God comes from God...without certain $5 words.

 

[ScottA]

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The Human Jesus has no sin. That is why you can't place the abomination of desolation there. He can only carry our iniquities on the outside of Himself, like he carried the cross on His shoulders. Not "in the Holy Place" as you try to present it.

That is not the point, or the issue, nor would I dispute that.

The point from the scriptures is--Jesus said there is an abomination "standing in the temple", and also that His body is the temple only portrayed to by the physical temple built by hands.

What you are saying does not account for both being true without violating one of those statements. Which makes your understanding and explanation not biblical.

But what I have said, the scriptures also say: that Jesus has reconciled evil man and the Father through the sacrifice of His body. Which is only possible because He was truly and fully man, and truly and fully God.

It is already proven that can't be the case, your "foreshadowing" theory comes from you, not Scripture:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

All that you have proven is that you have failed to consider Jesus fully man and fully God, in whom all of what the scriptures say is true in Him.

 

[marks]

Dispensationalism is, in layman's terms, simply the idea/belief that God will 'dispense' specific promises to two different parties at the end of time. The church, or all saved and baptized believers in Christ and God's Word, and the physical nation of Israel.

Is that your basic understanding?

That's just a small part of what dispensations are. Before Jesus died, people came to God through His covenant with Israel. If you were not part of Israel, you had no opportunity to enter a covenantal relationship with God. If you wanted to have a covenantal relationship with God, you had to become part of Israel to do that.

Now, gentiles can come directly into a covenantal relationship with God, not by joining Israel, but directly through Jesus. And now there is no more sacrifice that can be offered.

In the previous dispensation, sacrifices had to offered continually. In the subsequent dispensation, Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrifice.

Anyone who recognizes these things is seeing the dispensational differences, and holds a dispensational view.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And Amillennialism is the belief that there will be no Millennium time period after Christ's return (Rev. 20) for specific reasons.

My understanding of ammillennialism is that the "1000 year kingdom" is a metaphor for Christ's unending reign happening now. Is that you're understanding?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What you are saying does not account for both being true without violating one of those statements. Which makes you understanding and explanation not biblical.

Well said!

 

[Daniel L.]

Jesus said there is an abomination "standing in the temple", and also that His body is the temple

If you know there can be no sin in Him, then you know the abomination of desolation can only stand in the wordly temple, because it is impossible for sin to stand in the temple of His Body, even His Human Body. So you must be confusing the two.
In Matthew 24 there is no mention of the temple of His Body, you brought that up from a completely different context, and that passage was fulfilled at cruxifiction. They are two different prophecies.

 

[GEN2REV]

Thanks...I actually looked them up

My understanding was that dispensationalism was one dispensation to the Jews and a different dispensation to the gentiles. Not sure I have/had it right...I'm not really into it. But I am into God (and He in me)...I'm just not that kind of scholar.

As for amillennialism, I guess I understood that correctly. But again, what I know of God comes from God...without certain $5 words.

Right.

I think we're basically on the same page. I'm certainly not an expert, but I've been studying up on it recently to have a better grasp of the go-to Wild Card that so many throw up in your face when debating certain concepts.

Yes, the big 'seminary scholar' words are just a smoke screen to make people feel inept when discussing these things. A cheap trick for those who don't have a legitimate hand to play.

ETA: And yes, you're probably right on the two dispensation groups. I think I've heard it both ways. Church and Israel, and Jews and Gentiles. Hmmm...

 

[GEN2REV]

That's just a small part of what dispensations are. Before Jesus died, people came to God through His covenant with Israel. If you were not part of Israel, you had no opportunity to enter a covenantal relationship with God. If you wanted to have a covenantal relationship with God, you had to become part of Israel to do that.

Now, gentiles can come directly into a covenantal relationship with God, not by joining Israel, but directly through Jesus. And now there is no more sacrifice that can be offered.

In the previous dispensation, sacrifices had to offered continually. In the subsequent dispensation, Jesus' sacrifice put an end to animal sacrifice.

Anyone who recognizes these things is seeing the dispensational differences, and holds a dispensational view.

Much love!

My understanding of ammillennialism is that the "1000 year kingdom" is a metaphor for Christ's unending reign happening now. Is that you're understanding?

Much love!

Thank you for those, Marks.

Yes, that is where I'm at with it all. Been studying the Bible well over a decade, but new to the official concepts of Amil. and Dispensationalism.

Amil. fits my existing foundational understanding of all integrated concepts; all the passages that pertain to end times events, as well as Christ's current status as King of the kingdom.

 

[marks]

His land promises are complete.

The rest of His promises to Israel are to the spiritual race, not the physical. Plenty of scriptures to toss back at ya to prove that when you say go. Most have been worn out in this Forum and seen many times by most, but .... evil doesn't sleep. Neither are we allowed to when it comes to God's Word.

That's why I like the specificity of that particular passage. It seems to me that it answers every objection someone could make. "Seed of Israel", "remain a nation", "won't cast out for all they have done". What would be the reason God would have cast them out? Nothing they've done, according to this. So it's not about them, it's about God Who selected them. Which is a point made many times in the Scriptures.

And God's promise has the same duration as the sun and moon and star. So when did it end?

And by the way, His land promises are not complete, there is prophecy about that also. There is an whole other set of land allotments to be apportioned to the tribes than what was done before.

Jesus made promises, gave prophecy, that the 12 Apostles would judge the 12 tribes of Israel. I believe this is true prophecy, and will be fulfilled. The OT prophesies David will rise and be king of Israel. So we have 12 Apostles judging the tribes, with David king of Israel, under Jesus King of Kings. It all sounds very plausible, Biblical, and shouldn't be rejected for seeming "dispensational", but should be accepted as valid.

Yeah, I know, I've seen, participated in a lot of the back and forth on this subject, so I like to go to the heart of the matter.

For what reason would God cast out Israel, and when did it happen? Any answer you might give is simply refuted by Jeremiah's prophecy.

He has blinded part of Israel, branches were broken off, but just the same, He will keep His promises, won't He?

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

That's why I like the specificity of that particular passage. It seems to me that it answers every objection someone could make. "Seed of Israel", "remain a nation", "won't cast out for all they have done". What would be the reason God would have cast them out? Nothing they've done, according to this. So it's not about them, it's about God Who selected them. Which is a point made many times in the Scriptures.

So the fact that He promised to destroy them in Joshua has no bearing on it at all? And that He did destroy them, and bring them into captivity to other nations, over and over again, throughout Judges?

"... and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass ... Therefore it shall come to pass ... (that) the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you."
Joshua 23:14-15

The land promises ended prior to all of this in Joshua 21:43-45. Then we see here that the land promises are ended and God has promised to destroy Israel; and does just that repeatedly in the following book. What other, alternative/additional, land promises are you referring to?

Another aspect of all of this is that physical vs spiritual Israel must be specified. Or we wouldn't have:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: ... That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God (Israel): ..."
Romans 9:8

So what changed, and when? I dunno. You tell me. I'm still learning.

For what reason would God cast out Israel, and when did it happen? Any answer you might give is simply refuted by Jeremiah's prophecy.

I dunno, but the above verses in Joshua are a ripe candidate for first inspection. And something must've changed since the OT presents the physical race/nation of Israel as God's people; while the NT shows them to be a spiritual Nation in more than one place, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[ScottA]

If you know there can be no sin in Him, then you know the abomination of desolation can only stand in the wordly temple, because it is impossible for sin to stand in the temple of His Body, even His Human Body. So you must be confusing the two.
In Matthew 24 there is no mention of the temple of His Body, you brought that up from a completely different context, and that passage was fulfilled at cruxifiction. They are two different prophecies.

No, that is the thinking of men. The clay is not the Potter.

And there is only One context in the revelation of Jesus Christ. It all points to Him.

 

[marks]

The land promises ended prior to all of this in Joshua 21:43-45. Then we see here that the land promises are ended and God has promised to destroy Israel; and does just that repeatedly in the following book. What other, alternative/additional, land promises are you referring to?

Destroy you from off of that land.

Finish the quote, then see if you find any parallel passages, such as in Leviticus, others, where if they remain disobedient, the droughts and famines and invasions would finally result in exile.

I'm curious, if that is so, what then was Jeremiah prophesying in that passage?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I dunno, but the above verses in Joshua are a ripe candidate for first inspection.

Again, God's wording was that He would not cast them out from being a nation before Him for anything they had done. Anything! But you say there was something God cast them out for. But you dunno what that was. Maybe their disobedience. Something they had done.

Destroy them from out of the land and will not stop being a nation before God have very different meanings, one referring to enjoying the land promises, and the other having identity before God. And with all the prophecies that God will regather them from where they'd been scattered, it seems both remain true, that they were scattered from their land, and that they retained their national identity with God.

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm curious, if that is so, what then was Jeremiah prophesying in that passage?

What passage are you referring to?

I saw your comment on that and looked back at your previous posts and didn't locate any posted verses from Jeremiah. Did I miss it/them?

 

[GEN2REV]

Again, God's wording was that He would not cast them out from being a nation before Him for anything they had done. Anything! But you say there was something God cast them out for. But you dunno what that was. Maybe their disobedience. Something they had done.

Destroy them from out of the land and will not stop being a nation before God have very different meanings, one referring to enjoying the land promises, and the other having identity before God. And with all the prophecies that God will regather them from where they'd been scattered, it seems both remain true, that they were scattered from their land, and that they retained their national identity with God.

Much love!

If you could use more verses from scripture, it would help the discussion.

 

[marks]

If you could use more verses from scripture, it would help the discussion.

I get confused between posts and threads, and I lose track of what I've posted the whom.

This one is rather specific in my view.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 LITV
31) Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32) not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34) And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.
37) So says Jehovah, If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be searched out, I will also reject all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, declares Jehovah.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette Seems to be linked with WHO a passage is speaking about, as well as WHAT. Like, as regards the aspects of the Lord's coming, if the church is supposedly the same as Israel, then ppl's understanding of the aspects of the Lord's coming will likely differ also.

Well we can rest assured that the church is not the same as Israel. While faithful Israel is saved, they are not members of the body of christ and have a different destiny in the millenial kingdom.