Amillennialism

[keras]

Yes it is.

They are standing before the Throne.

Really now...

Your insistence that God's throne must be in heaven, in Revelation 7:11, is of course a major tenet of the pre-trib rapture and it can be proved that the Throne is on earth then, it follows that the pre-trib rapture is a lie.
Revelation 14:1-3 tells us the 144,000 are standing on Mt Zion with Jesus and are singing a new song before the Throne. There are several other scriptures telling us how God's Throne can be on earth. Psalm 97:8, Jeremiah 49:38, Ezekiel 43:7

RAPTURE REFUTED !!!!

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, Well, I hope you and Marcus are enjoying yourselves although a little less vitriol on both sides should be considered.

You wrote: “Nowhere does it state they are resurrected or raptured....if that is your resurrection and rapture where is the rest of the church? Since we are told the multitude come out of the great tribulation.”

Rev. 7:9 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

You are correct in observing that the verse doesn’t state that fact implicitly, however, with the use of the phrase “I beheld and lo” it does seem to imply that they seemed to appear there suddenly as he hadn’t noticed them before. Since the multitude is so great that “no man could could number” what makes you think part of the church is missing? The great trib is simply the last thing they were experiencing before they were raptured. In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

You wrote: “Secondly I do not buy the proof positive reliance on Rev 4, simlpy because John is taken to heaven, therefore whatever he sees must be in heaven, this is a false assumption, example can be given if you examine the souls under the altar, therefore they must be in heaven.
The preposition translated under (Greek hypokato) is a strong one, meaning "below" or "beneath" “

I think John is giving an accurate description. They can still be “in heaven” and below the altar at the same time. Why would you think otherwise?
You also wrote: “Like wise the great multitude in Rev 7, we dont need to be in heaven to be standing before the throne physically.Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”

Well, yes, while we can approach the throne of God with faith in the present, that doesn’t mean we won’t stand before the throne in the physical, in the future which this prophecy is depicting. Your Heb. 4 example clarifies this but it certainly does NOT imply that we are approaching the throne “physically”. We would actually have to be in heaven to do this. Remember in this part of Revelation, this isn’t Christ’s throne, He is sitting at the right hand. This is the throne of God the Father!

Trekson, I have in the past extended my hand out twice to marcus to only have that spat back....hence im not surprised I see the same volatile attacks on others by him.

Im sorry there is nothing in Marcus I see that comes from Christ....all I see is the same vanity satan has.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Marcus places himself above all testing - hence his volitile satanic nature.

Now back to our discussion....firstly thank you for your respectfull reply...like wise I tend to treat you with the same gentle manner.

You said the following : "what makes you think part of the church is missing"

You have to remember John asked who the great mulititude are and the answer was given

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Hence my question, John only has the great multitude that came out of the great tribulation in view....if this is the ressurection and rapture where is the rest of the church, specific to the ressurection of all christians who have died prior to the great tribulation over the past 2000 years....where are they?

You wrote: In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

No I must disagree here this does not fit and one of the issues I have with the prewrath doctrine and Ill explain why:

First - according to the Jesus' statement, the shortening of the days somehow affects the survival of all flesh, not just believers. So how does shortening the elect's time on earth help out anybody else? The time span must, therefore, be the same for all.

Second - the powers given antichrist for 42 months, one of them is "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7). No mention of a rapture interrupting that power.

Daniel agrees, "When he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel 12:7).

Both passages give antichrist full power for the full time without any abatement.

Third - this is the biggest flaw in the prewrath doctrine. The two witnesses are given 1260 days fall into this same period, this means 3.5 yrs to complete the rest of Christ ministry.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

There is no rapture until Christ ministry is completed in the latter half of the one seven.

The prewrath is teaching a false doctrine that we would have a rapture of all believers except the two witnesses.

So not only is the prewrath doctrine in violation of the rest of Christ ministry to be completed, it is in complete violation of Rosh Hashanah as well as prophetic templates such as the Battle of Jericho.

You wrote: "I think John is giving an accurate description. They can still be “in heaven” and below the altar at the same time. Why would you think otherwise?"

First - as a point of reference, it will be helpful to look first at the biblical account of the first martyr, Abel.

Abel's blood, not Abel himself, cried out to the Lord. Clearly this did not happen in a literal sense. Abel's shed blood cried out from the ground to the Lord symbolically, for justice to be done, for his blood to be avenged, just like in Rev 6:10.

Second - there will be two groups of martyrs. First group in Rev 6:9-11 are told they are to rest for a while until they are joined by a second group of martyrs, which are also mentioned in Revelation 14.

These dead christians in Rev 14 "rest" from their labors, asleep in their graves. They are not alive as an immortal soul in heaven, A similar verse about Abel being quite dead is found in Heb 11:4-

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Third - Christians should be aware, the animal sacrifices of the Hebrew sanctuary were symbolic for the sacrifice and death of the lamb of God, those sacrifices represented the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The animal blood poured out at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering was symbolic of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, spilled on the ground under the cross.

Therefore, the altar of burnt offering is symbolic of Christ's sacrifice, which occurred on this earth.

The altar of incense, is in the heavenly sanctuary before the throne of God, however because the golden altar of incense never had sacrificial blood poured out under it, it is not the altar spoken of in Rev. 6:9.

If you look at Rev 8:3-4 the prayers of the saints not the souls themselves but their prayers are the sacrifices that ascend like incense from earth to heaven--from "under the altar" the branze altar to the altar itself the incense altar.

you wrote: We would actually have to be in heaven to do this.

No you don't, hebrews 4:16 resolves the matter for you. Further rev 7:9 is certianly not that time of judgement before Gods throne.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Your insistence that God's throne must be in heaven, in Revelation 7:11, is of course a major tenet of the pre-trib rapture and it can be proved that the Throne is on earth then, it follows that the pre-trib rapture is a lie.

Here we have the reason rabbi keras posts.
Like at-in-christ, he is on a mission to destroy an eschatology.

Now I am not Pre-Trib, but most Evangelicals are.
So this means the false messenger has set himself against the grain.

They are linked in this endeavor and you can expect them to join together.
I am naturally opposed to seeking to destroy what people hold dear - but I will show how Pre-Wrath works, and other systems don't.

I leave it to the individual, who hardly ever changes their mind, to seek for themselves an answer.
However, when one sets out to destroy, especially a tenet I hold, I will defend.

And when someone's only motive is to destroy, I will show how they so motivated, and I will attack their false presumptions.
_________________________________________________


Here rabbi keras makes the argument personal.
It's not personal.
It's a matter of Scripture.

John is called up to Heaven in Rev 4:1 after having the first vision of the Churches on the island of Patmos.
He is a very good court reporter, and he documents what he sees.
We can surmise he has a writing kit. Such a thing is seen in another prophet's vision in Ezekiel 9:2, 3, and 11.

John wrote down what he saw when he was translated to the third Heaven of the Presence of the Father.
He chronicles, the Throne, the Father, the 24 Elders, the Four Living Creatures, the Lamb, and the many Angels.

This self-proclaimed prophet, rabbi keras, says it is I who insists that the Throne is in Heaven. IT IS NOT I, BUT SCRIPTURE which puts the Throne in Heaven.

Now if this weren't bad enough, this false self-proclaimed messenger, would now "lead" readers astray and he attempts to relocate the Throne to the Earth.
Why?
Because he has a whole eschatology of an earth-bound Heaven.

Where did he get this idea?
Well, quite frankly, after reading his posts, he has confused every instance of the Millennium with the Jews and appointed all those passages to the Church.
And this is why I call him rabbi keras.

So in his eschatology, he "needs" to move the Throne from Heaven to the earth.
And he will resist to his dying breath and lick of sense that says otherwise.
_______________________________________________________________


Devoid of evidence to support himself, he resorts to the ad-hominem attack.
This is a fallacy of argument.
So too does at-in-christ, which is my play of words on his name and anti-Christ.
He has also set out to destroy.

So get your popcorn and I'll unsheathe my sword.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

One of the things the reader must be aware is to keenly discern where an argument makes an illogical leap to a false conclusion, so as to not "buy" into it.

When anyone says, "It is clear..." I know for instance, that whatever they are talking about is anything but "clear."
The only thing that is "clear" at this point, is that they are set in their thinking and can broach no other thought to exist.
This happens even outside of eschatology.
Last week, with Hurricane Matthew, Hillary Clinton said, "The consensus of science is clear..."
Well first of all, science is NEVER by consensus, and the point she wants is to stand unopposed is "Climate Change."
This is laughable, the climate is always changing, but if you allow her to solve this problem, she gains power over your life.
And evil rulers want to have power over your life; the anti-Christ will attempt to rule your life or take it.

Here is another time when a conclusion is reached.
If you "buy" into it, you might not realize it.
This is done by the use of the word: "must."
What at-in-christ has done is try to force a fact into something else which is not a fact, but a conclusion on his part.

Let's pick up the argument where at-in-christ attempts to destroy a tenet of Pre-Wrath.
Remember, his motive is not to illuminate, but to destroy.
That is not edifying, nor is it beneficial.

You wrote: In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

No I must disagree here this does not fit and one of the issues I have with the prewrath doctrine and Ill explain why:

First - according to the Jesus' statement, the shortening of the days somehow affects the survival of all flesh, not just believers.

Mt 24:22 (1) Unless those days had been cut short, (2) no life would have been saved; (3) but for the sake of the elect (4) those days will be cut short.

There are four parts to this statement.

(1) This starts out with the conjunction "unless".
The Greek sets this first because it is the most important, so the sentence reads backward from the main subject: (no) life saved.
The key feature is that the days of the Great Tribulation have to be cut short for life to be saved.

(2) Many read this as all life.
One concept in the Hebrew concerning "all" (kol) is the that it is not the 100% inclusion we have in our culture.
kol can act in its capacity as "all that is applicable".
So in the end-times, it is said that all die. But then in a few instances, we find this statement, 'all die' with survivors.
So all do not die in the 100% sense we read it, but all that are applicable die, and in the case of the one 'seven', I'd estimate that as 99%.
However, we find in the end-times, like with the Flood, God has no problem with taking life.
The question then is what life is saved?
The applicable life God desires to save, and is said to save, are the Elect.
Indeed, this is the reason set in the adjoining statement following.

The first fallacy in at-in-christ's attack is that the shortening affects ALL life.
This sets up his "must" statement later.

(3) "for the sake" sets the reason for life being saved.
The only life worth saving is for the Elect, and "Elect" in the NT, when speaking of people: always refers to the (true) Church.
Remember: God has no problem with taking life.
The life is not theirs (or ours) - but belongs first to the creator of life: God.
God is going to take a LOT of life during the one 'seven'.
So it is NOT for ALL life to be saved, but only that which is applicable: the Elect.
The Elect are unfairly persecuted in the Great Tribulation.
And UNLESS that time is shortened, they will all (applicable again) die.
However - God has set a number for the martyrs, and the ensuing death of the Elect during the Great Tribulation will not exceed that.
Remember: Some of us will live to see Christ coming on the clouds with the Saints He has resurrected from Paradise. (1Th 3:13).

(4) Reaffirms the cutting short.
The Great Tribulation is cut short so that some of the Elect will live to see Christ come.
Remember, the two laws which go into effect with the midpoint abomination do not affect the wicked.
They are not threatened at all by its 'worship of die' condition.
Only the Elect are told not to follow either law and so they risk death to obey Christ.
And in losing their life for His sake, the Elect will gain eternal life.

My message to the Pre-Trib community echoes what is in the Bible:
Endure Patiently when you find yourself in a period of time you thought you would be protected from experiencing.

You wrote: In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

No I must disagree here this does not fit and one of the issues I have with the prewrath doctrine and Ill explain why:

First -So how does shortening the elect's time on earth help out anybody else? The time span must, therefore, be the same for all.

Answer: Shortening the time of the Great Tribulation and delaying no longer the Return of Christ, SAVES the Elect.

Having laid out that the applicable life is not just for the Elect, at-in-christ moves onto his second part meant to destroy:
The time span MUST, therefore (another conclusion amplifying the necessity of the first) be the same for all.

This conclusion of at-in-christ's is his alone.
He wants, however, to force you to accept his (false) premise and join his thinking.
He is now forcing the time span to be equal for all life: the Elect and the wicked.
Why?
He wants to set the Return of Christ to the last day of the one 'seven'.
He cannot have the Day of the Lord be thought of as coming a day sooner.

In the Olivet Discourse, the Day of the Lord comes after the shortened Great Tribulation.
In the Olivet Discourse, the Elect are gathered out of the world BEFORE the end of the one 'seven'.

In Rev 7, the Great Multiude show up IN heaven before the Wrath of God goes forth.
Likewise in Rev 14, the Harvest comes before the first bit of the Wrath of God on the Day of the Lord goes forth with fire and blood,
- and before the last of God's Wrath with the Bowl Judgments.

at-in-christ MUST destroy these concepts to keep his eschatology intact.
Pre-Wrath (and to a greater extent, Pre-Trib) conflicts with his thinking; so he has decided to destroy both of them.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

One of the tactics people use in "winning" an argument is to set up an impossible question.
Since the question cannot be answered in the affirmative positively, then they will gloat that they win by default.
This is a fallacy in argument in the Bible.
Just because God omits a fact from an account, does not mean it doesn't exist.
No account in the various prophecies about the end-times contains all the facts which will exist.
Each account is tailored, so to speak, toward a certain point, or point-of-view, some aspect which God desires to illuminate.

Second - the powers given antichrist for 42 months, one of them is "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7). No mention of a rapture interrupting that power.

Daniel agrees, "When he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel 12:7).

Both passages give antichrist full power for the full time without any abatement.

It is a false test to ask where the Rapture is in the book of Revelation.

This is one of those "GOTCHA!" statements people use to "win" their argument.
It is not something which shows their discernment.
It is something which shows the meanness in the lengths they will go to "win" and so destroy any faith others put in looking forward to physical salvation from Satan.

As a way of explanation, I look at Revelation's chapters 13-16 (inclusive) as one account: the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ.
I look at these four chapters as one linear narrative.
I say that these four chapters are the detailed, parallel view of JUST the one 'seven'.
This sets this as a parallel account to the broad overview of Revelation's chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

at-in-christ wants to blend the first half of the one 'seven' to the whole.
Remember, he is Post-Trib/last day.

Chapter 13 is set in chronological order.
It begins with the start of the one 'seven' and chronicles its FIRST HALF.
It takes us up to the midpoint abomination - now revealed as the talking image.

Daniel 12:7 is taken out of context and added to the first - and at-in-christ's point is to stretch it to the last day of the one 'seven'.
What he wants to drive home is that the anti-Christ is in power for the whole of the one 'seven'.

While the anti-Christ is the leader of the "North" through the whole of the one 'seven' - he is hardly in total control in its second half.
Indeed, he is thwarted repeatedly by God and is hedged into an ever narrowing path to an inescapable downfall: Armageddon.
The anti-Christ, even while killing the Elect, is first faced with God's "first responders" - the Two Witnesses, whom he can't kill.
Then - after the Day of the Lord, and its attendant rescue of what the Satan and the anti-Christ seek to destroy - the Elect - he is faced with desolations which "spoil" his plans.

So when at-in-christ says there is no abatement, remember his aim: to destroy both Pre-Trib and now, Pre-Wrath.
He didn't really know about Pre-Wrath at first, but he has found out about it recently, and he has added it to his list of targets to destroy.
However, he can't.
He can only seek to discredit it vis-a-vis his own thinking. Pre-Wrath can be found in Scripture.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

People who don't understand claim mistake.
The biggest complainers about Pre-Wrath usually just make broad claims of error.
They hardly ever get specific, because when they do, I can show how they are in error.

Third - this is the biggest flaw in the prewrath doctrine. The two witnesses are given 1260 days fall into this same period, this means 3.5 yrs to complete the rest of Christ ministry.

So we start with the presumption that Pre-Wrath is flawed. Ho-hum.

The second presumption is that the Two Witnesses are given the same period of time as is detailed in Revelation 13 - the first half of the one 'seven.'
This second presumption is in error.

The Two Witnesses act in response to the midpoint abomination in my opinion.
I call them God's First Responders.

They PRECEDE Christ's parousia. That is a fact from prophecy.
They call down plagues.
at-in-christ is a lousy scholar and he has already attempted to spin this fact to saying that is also all of God's desolations.
They are killed by a demon probably unleashed with the fifth Trumpet / first Woe.
They are "called up" at the end of the one 'seven' in 11:12.

The half that the Two Witnesses inhabit is the second half of the one 'seven' - not the first half chronicled in Revelation 13.

What at-in-christ wishes to do with this statement is to say that there is an ongoing evangelization of the world during the second half of the one 'seven'.
There is no direct evidence for this conclusion in the Bible.
It is an effort on his apriori conclusion of a last day Rapture, and so works backward to insist what cannot be found at all, is indeed there.

This is different than an omission from a single account.
This is the making up of whole cloth without any thread.

So when at-in-christ says "this means" it does not mean that at all.
What you are reading is his conclusion, and there is nothing to support it.
His premise is invalid, and so too, his conclusion.

Good morning, and good day!

 

[inchrist]

/quote]

Nothing gets past you, im in awe. Prewrath and pretrib eschatology belong in the trash can with all other false doctrines.

(1) This starts out with the conjunction "unless".
The Greek sets this first because it is the most important, so the sentence reads backward from the main subject: (no) life saved.The key feature is that the days of the Great Tribulation have to be cut short for life to be saved.

Yes congratulations for admitting that....

Now I want readers to be aware Marcus, has the great tribulation ending at the commence of the 6th seal. As the 6th seal they believe is the only place where the following happens

Matthew 24:29
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

But even on this basis both the saints and all other flesh still come out of the great tribulation at the same time. Where has it been shortend?

The tribulation period cannot be shorter than 3.5 years, because the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Jesus (Matthew 24:15) and Daniel (Daniel 9:27), coincides with the revealing of the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:8) and the fleeing of Israel (Matthew 24:16). Israel finds protection in the wilderness for 1260 days (Revelation 12:6) and the man of sin has power for 42 months (42 months times 30 days equals 1260 days) (Revelation 13:5). Revelation 12:14 defines the 1260 days in terms of years (compare Daniel 12:7). Since Revelation, gives the time in three different ways (days, months, years) so that there would be no doubt about it, and since this three-fold emphasis comes after Jesus spoke of shortening the days, then we know that the precise countdown still stands. I don't know about you, but I don't think I have the right to nullify all these clear Scriptures on the basis of one little obscure statement.

When in reality if the great tribulation lasted more than 1260 days certainly no life would survive. Hence the the time is cut short at 1260 days.

In Rev 7, the Great Multiude show up IN heaven before the Wrath of God goes forth.

Another false assumption this has been dealt with hebrews 4:16 i dont see the point in repeating myself.

One of the tactics people use in "winning" an argument is to set up an impossible question.Since the question cannot be answered in the affirmative positively, then they will gloat that they win by default.This is a fallacy in argument in the Bible. Just because God omits a fact from an account, does not mean it doesn't exist. It is a false test to ask where the Rapture is in the book of Revelation.

You clearly are a little illiterate, i never said it doesnt exist....just not in prewrath and pretrib. Thay is the test to prove it which yoi cant yet I can.

The readers need to understand neither the pretribs and prewraths can actually boast a literal resurrection.

Why Marcus is in complete violation of scripture concerning the timing of the resurrection and rapture.

We need to look at the prophetic template given in Jacob, Leah & Rachel

Jacob worked for seven years for Leah is symbolic of the seven-year ministry of Christ that was cut in half to only 3 ½ years at his first coming. Even though his ministry is for seven years, “in the midst of the week” he caused “the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” to be acceptable before the Father in Heaven (Daniel 9:27). And then, the latter part of his seven-year ministry for Leah will be fulfilled by his “Two Witnesses” in Revelation 11:3-4 as they will prophesy for 1,260 days (3 ½ years).

Leah and Jacob are a prophetic template of Christ marrying his church which is also symbolic of the house of emphraim which is the first bride at the last trumpet Rosh Hashanah aka the 7th trumpet

Christ will then proceed to marry his second bride the house of Judah on the last trumpet of this bride on Yom Kippur.

The second bride Jacob works an additional 7 years for Rachel after marrying her, this is a template of Christ marrying the Jews aka the house of Judah and this corrolates with Christ working the 7 years burning of weapons that we find in the millennium.

Remember Christ is to make one stick....hence the house of Ephraim and the House of Judah will become one wife....however until then CHRIST HAS TWO BRIDES.

Hence why Ill keep askinf marcus who is the greatest scholar the world over greater than the apostles to look at learning hebrew eschatology than the western concept of eschatology

Marcus since you alone arw the qorlds greatest scholar please translate the following into hebreq for me Tribulation 10 days....this is what is called a Hebrew idionism, what hebrew idionism is this?

Further Marcus since Im astounding ar your scholarship

Notice the hebrew idionsims:

1. The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord

2. The time has come for judging the dead,

3. for destroying those who destroy the earth

Do you know what feast this hebrew idionisms belong to?

Heres a hint...it involved two witnesses prior.

Do you know what this feast most famous idionism is?

Since im at awe.... you seem to possess the ability to also see all....marcus the seer.

He didn't really know about Pre-Wrath at first, but he has found out about it recently, and he has added it to his list of targets to destroy.

Really? It must of escaped you i grew up in a household with a catholic mother and a father who is a 3rd generation protestant preacher....ive been aware of many types of doctrines including prewrath since childhood...idiot!!!.

Anyother glories assumptions you wish to make up? Cos if this is all you got...what a waste of time.

 

[inchrist]

So get your popcorn and I'll unsheathe my sword.

Lol could you be anymore vain....you really love yourself hey

Also a bit of walking contradiction

Remember, his motive is not to illuminate, but to destroy.

 

[keras]

One Bible truth that seems to be very difficult for people to see, is how there is just one people of God. Galatians 3:26-29
The New Testament is plain in that there is neither Greek nor Jew, all Christians are one in God. His salvation is extended to anyone who will accept it.
Jesus bought by His blood, people of every tribe, race, nation and language.... Revelation 5:9-10

Therefore any talk about Jews still being God's ethnic people, is unbiblical nonsense.
The one people of God; all the true Christians, be they righteous Americans, Messianic Jews or faithful Eskimos, all the rest are ungodly walking dead people.

This truth also totally refutes any idea of a rapture to heaven. 1 Thess 4:15-17 happens at the Return of Jesus. It is when the angels gather His chosen people from around the earth. Matthew 24:31
All of the Lord's people will gather into the holy Land, soon after the Day of wrath, as many prophesies state. They are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them; Zechariah 14:1-2 Half will be taken to a place of safety on earth, Revelation 12:6, the rest remain to face further testing as Daniel 7:25 and Rev 12:17 say.

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, First a word about these type of statements you made: “The prewrath is teaching a false doctrine that we would have a rapture of all believers except the two witnesses. So not only is the prewrath doctrine in violation of the rest of Christ ministry to be completed, it is in complete violation of Rosh Hashanah as well as prophetic templates such as the Battle of Jericho.”

In my opinion, it’s not “okay” to discuss various understandings of prophecy and then “label” something you disagree with as a “false doctrine”. That shows me a level of immaturity. No one knows, until the prophecies are fulfilled, which belief is correct and which is not. If I am wrong in my beliefs, then I’m wrong. That’s all there is to it. I’m not promoting one over the other, I just share what I believe and why I believe it and it doesn’t always have to have a scriptural basis behind it because we ae speaking of the unknown. Secondly, it’s not wise to “judge” the understanding of others because as Christ taught in Matt. 7:2 we will be judged in the same manner by which we judge others. So, if you accuse your brethren of teaching “false doctrines” and we end up being correct, then you’ve set yourself up to be judged in a harsher manner than if you just disagreed with them over understanding of prophecy. Do you see the difference and the point I’m trying to make here? I may disagree with you but I’m not going to accuse you of spreading a false doctrine, that’s not Christ’s style. I will just explain why we see things differently. If you disagree, fine, I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise. You’ve simply asked for my input and I’m giving it so let’s just leave it at that! Now on with the discussion.

You asked: “Hence my question, John only has the great multitude that came out of the great tribulation in view....if this is the ressurection and rapture where is the rest of the church, specific to the ressurection of all christians who have died prior to the great tribulation over the past 2000 years....where are they?”

Seeing as you state a little later that you don’t believe souls go to heaven, you probably won’t accept my answer and I really have no scriptural basis for it, it’s just what I believe. I believe that at the rapture/resurrection there will be two different groups of people. The dead in Christ, whose glorified bodies will be re-united with their spirits (the resurrected), which were already in heaven and those who are alive at His coming (the raptured). The resurrected aren’t “new” to heaven so they wouldn’t be lumped together with the “new arrivals” (the raptured) so to speak. We aren’t given a detailed account of every little thing that occurs so often “reasonable conclusions” are the best we can come up with. To sum up, John is seeing the group of “new arrivals”, the raptured church, whose arrival ended the great trib of satan’s wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17.


Regarding Matt. 24:22 you said: “No I must disagree here this does not fit and one of the issues I have with the prewrath doctrine and Ill explain why:

First - according to the Jesus' statement, the shortening of the days somehow affects the survival of all flesh, not just believers. So how does shortening the elect's time on earth help out anybody else? The time span must, therefore, be the same for all.

I think you’re taking things out of context. IMO, the “elect” and the “no flesh” are the same group. I believe this is saying that if the great trib wasn’t shortened by the rapture there wouldn’t be any believers LEFT to BE raptured.

Second - the powers given antichrist for 42 months, one of them is "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7). No mention of a rapture interrupting that power.

This is where “rightly dividing the word of truth” comes in. Is the a/c given 42 months to continue his reign of power? Yes. "to make war with the saints, and to overcome them" is only part of that 42 months. The scripture does NOT imply that the whole of the 42 months is given to overcome the saints.

Third - this is the biggest flaw in the prewrath doctrine. The two witnesses are given 1260 days fall into this same period, this means 3.5 yrs to complete the rest of Christ ministry.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that the time of the two witnesses or the antichrist, for that matter is either the first half or the second as the bible doesn’t clarify that. It could very easily be some of both, all we know for sure is that somewhere in the context of the 70th week they and the a/c are given 1260 days to complete their mission and I believe that scripture implies that they ARE NOT the SAME 1260 days as the a/c is still in power AFTER the two witnesses are killed. In the opinion of pre-wrath, as God won’t leave the world without a ‘witness”, they take over whenever the church is raptured. There really would be no reason for them to be here at the same time as the church.

Your verse: Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

In the KJV the word “midst” is used. This does not mean the EXACT middle. It just means sometime within the context of the 70th week. Many people make that assumption and thus box themselves into prophetic timelines that really aren’t there. If you insist I could show you other scriptures using that same word that has meanings other than the “middle” as folks want it to be.


Your words: “So not only is the prewrath doctrine in violation of the rest of Christ ministry to be completed, it is in complete violation of Rosh Hashanah as well as prophetic templates such as the Battle of Jericho.”

You might need to explain that a little better but imo, there are no templates for these end time events and to squeeze God into a box of only fulfilling His purposes in one way is disrespectful of the sovereignty of God! The same goes with your example of Abel and in one of your responses to Marcus the example Jacob. They are NOT templates for any kind of future wedding!

You wrote: “Abel's shed blood cried out from the ground to the Lord symbolically, for justice to be done, for his blood to be avenged, just like in Rev 6:10.”

The emboldened part is an assumption. The scriptural account in Genesis does NOT say that!

You said: “Second - there will be two groups of martyrs. First group in Rev 6:9-11 are told they are to rest for a while until they are joined by a second group of martyrs, which are also mentioned in Revelation 14.”

There are not two groups, only one. Those who have been martyred already and the rest of those to be martyred. This one group, imo, are only those who have been/will be martyred within the context of the 70th week.

Your words: “These dead christians in Rev 14 "rest" from their labors, asleep in their graves. They are not alive as an immortal soul in heaven, A similar verse about Abel being quite dead is found in Heb 11:4-By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.”

The bible does NOT imply that they are in the grave. That is again, an assumption on your part. This rest is the eternal Sabbath rest which is the topic of Heb. 4. Your example of Heb. 11:4 doesn’t hold water because it is speaking of the time of the Genesis account. It is certainly not implying that Abel’s blood, symbolically or otherwise is STILL crying out from the ground!

You wrote: “Further rev 7:9 is certainly not that time of judgement before Gods throne.”

I never said it was.

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, First a word about these type of statements you made: “The prewrath is teaching a false doctrine that we would have a rapture of all believers except the two witnesses. So not only is the prewrath doctrine in violation of the rest of Christ ministry to be completed, it is in complete violation of Rosh Hashanah as well as prophetic templates such as the Battle of Jericho.”

In my opinion, it’s not “okay” to discuss various understandings of prophecy and then “label” something you disagree with as a “false doctrine”. That shows me a level of immaturity.

All you are asking me really is to be PC about the matter. The words false and incorrect are really interchangeable words. Something is either true (correct) or False (incorrect).

There is no offence to be found here.

Its very simply, the eschatological doctrines of pretrib, mid trib, prewrath & post trib cant all be correct/ true, so either one is true and the rest are false eschatological doctrines or the reality of the situation is all 4 of those eschatological doctrine are false.

This is easily determined by getting back to basics.

There are two fundamental principles, everything else has to fall in line with it.

1. Gods dealings with 2 specific groups
2. Gods holy feasts


1. Gods dealings with 2 specific groups

God is only dealing with two groups which ultimately saves humanity through Jesus Christ, who alone can achieve this

These two groups are called the house of Judah and the House of Ephraim
Now both these houses have gentiles attached to them.

The Jews have their gentiles who have converted to judaism and Ephraim has their gentiles who have converted to Christianity.

Ezeikel 37: 16-17
Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.'

Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

Remember Ephraims inheritance

but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Ephraims inheretance is the christian nations, how? By the spreading of the gospel that was sent out to Ephraim, where ever Ephraim was, gentiles started to convert to Christianity.

This is why God called Ephraim my firstborn son. Jeremiah 31:9

Because in order to be called the firstborn son of God one must be born of Christ.

And in order to join the house of Judah and the House of Ephraim into ine stick can only be done through marriage.

Hence Christ has two brides, as Christ has a double inheretence, which Christ will make into one wife.

Remember Christ come for his own (House of Judah) but they received him not.

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

However we also know that Christ was also sent to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24)

Remember when Israel was split into two kindoms, you had the southern kingdom of Judah and the northern kingdom of Israel.

2. Gods holy feasts

God declared his holy feasts to be a holy convercation

Lev 23:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

The word convocations means rehearsal....a rehearsal for what?

A rehearsal for a wedding, 2 sets of weddings for 2 brides who will become 1 wife

Christ fulfilled the first section of the wedding known as your spring feasts, Christ needs to complete the second part of the wedding for both brides which is known as the fall feasts.

Througj these fall feast we can determine when Christ will return for the first bride Ephraim and then the second bride Judah.

Christ gave us a clue on which fall feast he will come to marry the bride Ephraim.

Matthew 24:36
But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

The phrase about that day nk one knows is a hebrew idionism called Yom Teruw’ah: “The Day That No Man Knows” which is known as the feast of Rosh Hashanah.

Why is it called this? Well, it is because this is the only feast that is determined by the sighting of the new moon, therefore, “no man” can calculate the exact day or hour of when this feast day will begin.

And Rosh hashanah was announced by two witnesses.

These are the following themes associated with Rosh hashanah
Teshuvah (repentance)
Rosh HaShanah (Head of the Year, Birthday of the World)
Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast [Feast of Trumpets)
Yom HaDin (the Day of Judgment)
HaMelech (the Coronation of the Messiah)
Yom HaZikkaron (the Day of Remembrance or memorial)
The opening of the gates
Kiddushin/Nesu'in (the wedding ceremony)
The resurrection of the dead (rapture, natza1)
The last trump (shofar)
Yom Hakeseh (the hidden day)

Now that we have looked at the idioms of Rosh hashanah

We can safely place this at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever."........The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

All these idioms in Rev 11:15 & 18 are clearly found to be in Rosh Hashanah.

Further you will also notice before two witness are killed 3.5 days before Rosh Hashanah and then are resurrected and raptured.

So not only do we have the same idioms found in Rev 11:15&18 we have two witnesses within this time frame.

Further you will also notice as prophetic templates in the story of Lot who is escorted out by two angels, in the battle of Jericho we have rahab escorfed out by two witnesses. [spies]

Here in Rev11:15 with the commencement of Rosh Hashanah we have two witnesses resurrected and raptured to escort the church in resurrection and rapture.

This is the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Th 4:16....it is the last trumpet for the house of Ephraim.

Now we look at where does Christ come for his second bride the house of Judah. This is to be found in Rev 19

As Rev 19 and Zechariah 12 pictures the feast of Yom kippur the day of atonement which is also the last trumpet for the house of Judah.

Now we have also a prophetic marriage found in Jacob, leah and Rachal.

1: symbolism of the 12 tribes.

Leah ended up with 10 sons when Rachel died.

The two sons of Rachel born to her by her handmaiden Bilhah were still considered the sons of Rachel.

2: Jews reject their messiah

Rachel symbolizes the one whom Jacob loved and wanted to marry, but when he came for her, she did not receive him. In fact Rachel traded Jacob to Leah

Did Pilate not gave the Jews a choice between Jesus and Barabbas?

John 1:11

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

3: two weddings

First seven days correlate to the seven-day wedding of Leah & Jacob and tAnd then there is yet another seven days for the other bride typified in Rachel and this is when both brides (Leah & Rachel) symbolizing Ephrayim & Judah will be made “one stick”

Further Jacob works an additional 7 years for Rachel and this corrolates with the 7 year burning of weapons.

Jacob worked for seven years first for Leah before marrying her is symbolic of the seven-year ministry of Christ that was cut in half to only 3 ½ years at his first coming. Even though his ministry is for seven years, “in the midst of the week” he caused “the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” to be acceptable before the Father in Heaven (Daniel 9:27). And then, the latter part of his seven-year ministry for Leah will be fulfilled by his “Two Witnesses” in Revelation 11:3-4 as they will prophesy for 1,260 days (3 ½ years).

You might need to explain that a little better but imo, there are no templates for these end time events and to squeeze God into a box of only fulfilling His purposes in one way is disrespectful of the sovereignty of God!

I must reject this, if one studies the battle of jericho, one will see the prophetic template of Joshua as the messiah, rahab as the gentle church, Jericho as the beast world, and the 7 x 7 as the seals and trumpets which is ended by a loud shout.

God does not wage war randomly, nor are things simply a matter of coincidence, throughout scriputre we know God follows divine patterns.

God won’t leave the world without a ‘witness”, they take over whenever the church is raptured. There really would be no reason for them to be here at the same time as the church.

This is in violation of Christ work for his bride of Ephraim as it leaves his ministry to her incomplete.

In the KJV the word “midst” is used. This does not mean the EXACT middle.

Yet you are aware Christ ministry at his first appearance was 3.5 yrs placing it in the middle of the 1 seven.

I think you’re taking things out of context. IMO, the “elect” and the “no flesh” are the same group. I believe this is saying that if the great trib wasn’t shortened by the rapture there wouldn’t be any believers LEFT to BE raptured.

But thats the thing the great trib isnt shortened at all.Prewraths have the following order, you have the great tribulation then after that comes the shaken of heaven and stars falling then the sign of the son of man then the son of man appears

Have a look here.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

As a prewrath it would read as follows immediately after the great tribulation the sun will be darkened, heaven shaken,stars fall, then the sign of the son of man the the appearing of the son of man.

In otherwords both the saints and all flesh still come out of the great tribulation at the same time, both the saints and all other flesh still need to experience the shaking of heaven, stars falling after the great tribulation....so where exactly has the great tribulation been shortened? As both you and all other flesh is still here to witness the cosmic signs that occure after the great tribulation before christ appears?

There is still some thibgs I have left out concerning your reply and will get to those but for now I have shown you that the pretrib, midtrib, prewrath & post trib are all in violation of Gods wedding rehearsals.

Post tribs are in violation of Rosh hashanah and Yom kippur as both these feasts do not fall on the same day for Rev 19 as the rapture and resurrection, hence post tribs are in violation of Gods chronological order of oppointed feasts.

Prewraths, mid tribs and pretribs violate the completion of Christs ministry to his bride first before Christ can marry the house of Ephraim and further violate set prophetic patterns in this regard.

Inotherwords neither the pretribs, midtribs, prewraths or even post tribs can actually boast a literal resurrection in any of the eschatologies...yet a prebawl resurrection and rapture does.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Trekson, I see you're having the same problem getting through to at-in-christ.
He said:

You wrote: In our opinion, the rapture is what shortens the time of the great trib per Matt. 24:22.

No I must disagree here this does not fit and one of the issues I have with the prewrath doctrine and Ill explain why:

First - according to the Jesus' statement, the shortening of the days somehow affects the survival of all flesh, not just believers. So how does shortening the elect's time on earth help out anybody else? The time span must, therefore, be the same for all.

And you tried to offer an explanation:

I think you’re taking things out of context. IMO, the “elect” and the “no flesh” are the same group. I believe this is saying that if the great trib wasn’t shortened by the rapture there wouldn’t be any believers LEFT to BE raptured.

Which of course, was met with a wall and he just repeats his misunderstanding; unable to articulate his thoughts anyway else because, quite frankly, he's stuck in them.

In otherwords both the saints and all flesh still come out of the great tribulation at the same time, both the saints and all other flesh still need to experience the shaking of heaven, stars falling after the great tribulation....so where exactly has the great tribulation been shortened? As both you and all other flesh is still here to witness the cosmic signs that occure after the great tribulation before christ appears?

How do you explain to someone that you are looking at this one small point - and they don't "get it"?

Well, one reason is, is that he doesn't want to look at it any other way, because this particular way of his viewing, and thinking, allows him to deride and snicker in critique that Pre-Wrath does not make sense.

However, it's not that it doesn't make sense; it's that he either cannot understand because of his own limitations, or he doesn't want to understand because then he won't be able to poke his finger in our eye about it and do what he wants to do more than anything else - destroy.
___________________________________________________


Now as to ALL flesh being saved - we have to ask a very important question:

WHO is affected by the Two Laws that go into effect with the erection of the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15; Daniel 9:27; and Rev 13:14-15)?
The Wicked? - No. They bow and worship and take the mark of the beast and they are not affected AT ALL.
The Elect? - YES. They are martyred when they don't worship and they die of starvation without the mark of the beast.

So who's lives are in jeopardy?
ALL? No. The Wicked go on their merry way.
Only the Elect who follow the commands of Christ Jesus are in jeopardy!

And in fact, they are so much in jeopardy, that they are dropping like flies.
And in accordance with the parable of the five foolish virgins, the Bridegroom "tarries"... so the problem is that more and more of ONLY the Elect are dying.

THE ONLY LIVES THAT NEED TO BE SAVED ARE THE ELECT WHO DON'T WORSHIP THE TALKING ABOMINATION OR TAKE HIS MARK.

But at-in-christ will NEVER see that way.
No, he's having too much fun destroying not only an eschatological position he doesn't understand, but even more, just good, solid, exegesis of the Word with all its supporting Scripture in context.

 

[Trekson]

Hi InChrist, I'm sorry but your OT theories are way to out there for me. You said this one thing I will comment on: "Even though his ministry is for seven years, “in the midst of the week” he caused “the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” to be acceptable before the Father in Heaven (Daniel 9:27)."

This is not speaking of Christ, it is speaking of the anti-christ. Christ's time in this passage ended when He was "cut off" (crucified) I'll even give you a bigger shock, I do not believe the church is or will be the "bride" in any way, shape or form.

 

[inchrist]

Trekson, I see you're having the same problem getting through to at-in-christ.
He said:




And you tried to offer an explanation:



Which of course, was met with a wall and he just repeats his misunderstanding; unable to articulate his thoughts anyway else because, quite frankly, he's stuck in them.




How do you explain to someone that you are looking at this one small point - and they don't "get it"?

Well, one reason is, is that he doesn't want to look at it any other way, because this particular way of his viewing, and thinking, allows him to deride and snicker in critique that Pre-Wrath does not make sense.

However, it's not that it doesn't make sense; it's that he either cannot understand because of his own limitations, or he doesn't want to understand because then he won't be able to poke his finger in our eye about it and do what he wants to do more than anything else - destroy.
___________________________________________________


Now as to ALL flesh being saved - we have to ask a very important question:

WHO is affected by the Two Laws that go into effect with the erection of the midpoint abomination (Mt 24:15; Daniel 9:27; and Rev 13:14-15)?
The Wicked? - No. They bow and worship and take the mark of the beast and they are not affected AT ALL.The Elect? - YES. They are martyred when they don't worship and they die of starvation without the mark of the beast.

So who's lives are in jeopardy?
ALL? No. The Wicked go on their merry way.Only the Elect who follow the commands of Christ Jesus are in jeopardy!

And in fact, they are so much in jeopardy, that they are dropping like flies.
And in accordance with the parable of the five foolish virgins, the Bridegroom "tarries"... so the problem is that more and more of ONLY the Elect are dying.

THE ONLY LIVES THAT NEED TO BE SAVED ARE THE ELECT WHO DON'T WORSHIP THE TALKING ABOMINATION OR TAKE HIS MARK.

But at-in-christ will NEVER see that way.
No, he's having too much fun destroying not only an eschatological position he doesn't understand, but even more, just good, solid, exegesis of the Word with all its supporting Scripture in context.

Ok....then answer this for me

Prewraths have the following order, you have the great tribulation then after that comes the shaken of heaven and stars falling then the sign of the son of man then the son of man appears

Have a look here.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

As a prewrath it would read as follows immediately after the great tribulation the sun will be darkened, heaven shaken,stars fall, then the sign of the son of man the the appearing of the son of man.

In otherwords both the saints and all flesh still come out of the great tribulation at the same time, both the saints and all other flesh still need to experience the shaking of heaven, stars falling after the great tribulation....so where exactly has the great tribulation been shortened? As both you and all other flesh is still here to witness the cosmic signs that occure after the great tribulation before christ appears?

 

[inchrist]

Hi InChrist, I'm sorry but your OT theories are way to out there for me. You said this one thing I will comment on: "Even though his ministry is for seven years, “in the midst of the week” he caused “the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” to be acceptable before the Father in Heaven (Daniel 9:27)."

This is not speaking of Christ, it is speaking of the anti-christ. Christ's time in this passage ended when He was "cut off" (crucified) I'll even give you a bigger shock, I do not believe the church is or will be the "bride" in any way, shape or form.

Doesnt shock me but I am interested to hear who you think the bride is

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As a prewrath it would read as follows immediately after the great tribulation the sun will be darkened, heaven shaken,stars fall, then the sign of the son of man the the appearing of the son of man.

In otherwords both the saints and all flesh still come out of the great tribulation at the same time, both the saints and all other flesh still need to experience the shaking of heaven, stars falling after the great tribulation....so where exactly has the great tribulation been shortened? As both you and all other flesh is still here to witness the cosmic signs that occure after the great tribulation before christ appears?

See!

He can't get it.
You can explain it fourteen different ways until the cows come home and he just isn't going to "get it".

But this will not stop him from trying to say this is a critical failing of Pre-Wrath.
at-in-christ is not adopting the mindset of Pre-Wrath; he is falsely portraying it due to his own ignorance to try to destroy it.
But he can't destroy something he can't even grasp. His criticism means nothing because it is vapid; a complete cipher.

The length of time of the Great Tribulation will be shortened so that not all of the Elect die under the evil Two Laws which are enacted with the midpoint abomination (Rev 13:14-16).

According to Jesus, the sequence-of-events at this critical time in the one 'seven' is as follows:

1. The (midpoint Dan 9:27) abomination
2. The Great Tribulation
3. The Sun/moon/star event celestial sign
4. Jesus coming on the clouds
5. The Elect being gathered up from the whole earth.

And this happens at some nebulous, unknown time after the midpoint when the Bridegroom "tarries".
The Great Tribulation - which only affects the Elect - is abruptly, and sharply cut off - SHORT - as one "docks" and animals tail to but a nub.
And that is the word Matthew uses! To dock an animals tail! This is a vital clue within the passage as it is conveyed to us.

The Saints who are resurrected from Paradise, who precede the Elect being gathered up, come with Jesus on the clouds (1Th 4:16 / 1Th 3:13)
AND the Elect who remain and are left - after the Great Tribulation - are gathered up and then presented to the Father in Heaven as the Great Multitude.
- and no less an authority than an Elder proclaims that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation.

And then the Scroll is opened, and then God's Wrath goes forward with fire and blood on the second half of the Day of the Lord.

 

[inchrist]

S
AND the Elect who remain and are left - after the Great Tribulation - are gathered up and then presented to the Father in Heaven as the Great Multitude.
- and no less an authority than an Elder proclaims that the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation.

You seem to be a little slow.....you just said after the great tribulation the whole point of your argument is the great tribulation is shortend for the elects so they dont endure the entire length of the great tribulation....yet after thebgreat tribulation the saints still carry on enduring the cosmic calamities after the length of the great tribulation before your rapture....sooooo how is the great tribulation shortend from 1260 days?

By the way 1th 3:13 are angels not dead christians perhaps you need to study Lazarus and the rich man alittle bit more ;)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Folks: what you are seeing here above is the definition of 'stuck on stupid'.

And you can't "fix" stupid...

 

[inchrist]

Folks: what you are seeing here above is the definition of 'stuck on stupid'.

And you can't "fix" stupid...

Here is a tip chop......both the elect and all other flesh come out of the tribulation togther....how is your tribulation shortened from 1260 days when you still have the elect after the tribulation going through cosmic calamities....i mean really where has the great tribulation actualky been shortened than 1260 days?

So instead of making things up perhaps answer my simple question...chop

 

[keras]

Friends, we are all aware of soon to happen dramatic changes coming to this world.
The Bible prophets tell us, in great detail of many things that will take place , leading up to the glorious Return of our Lord Jesus for His Millennial reign.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-33, when the fig tree buds, [the fig tree: a metaphor for the Jewish people, Jeremiah 24:4-7] then the present generation, those alive when that happens, will live to see it all.
The State of Israel, the Jewish homeland was declared in May 1948, so for anyone born then, a lifetime of 70 years is up by 2018. Therefore the end time events must commence on or before May 2018. That this is a possibility/probability, is evident from our current world, but more particularly: the Middle East situation.

Jesus quoted the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His earthly ministry. Luke 4:18-21 He carefully left off the remainder of that chapter, for what was not to be fulfilled at that time was the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath.
This terrible world changing Day, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17, is what we can expect to happen in the near future. It will be triggered by an attack onto Israel by an Islamic confederation of peoples and nations and Iran will attempt to fire nuke missiles at Israel, but God will cause their weapons to explode upon themselves. Psalms 7:12-16, Joel 3:4, Jeremiah 49:35-37

Many prophesies say how all those who believe in God and keep His Laws, should call upon His Name, [Jesus] on that Day and they will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
He will protect us; sending [angels] from heaven to save His own people, Psalms 57:1-3, Isaiah 43:2, as He did for the 3 men in the furnace; Daniel 3:19-27
Then, we have the Lord’s promises of the gathering of His Christian people into all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-31, to live there as He always intended; being His witnesses and sending out missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Over 100 years ago, a teaching was promoted, saying that before any disasters would happen, God will take His people up to live in heaven and they would Return with Him for the Millennium.
This teaching is not found in the Bible, as Dr John Walvoord; a rapture proponent, did actually admit. Scriptures like John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 are touted as rapture proofs, but they pertain to the end of the Millennium and at the Return of Jesus respectively and in no way do they, or any other verses say anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus refutes that false idea in John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

What we Christians are all exhorted to do when disaster strikes, is to pray for the strength and God given protection to survive that Day, 1 Cor 10:11-13, 1 Peter 1:7 and to be found worthy to live in the holy Land, as the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16
Remember this truth: all the promises of God to Israel now applies to Christians. Galatians 3:26-29 Jesus came to extend salvation to all who will accept it and now we are His people, bought by Jesus’ blood, formed by Him and destined to be with Him on earth. Isaiah 49:8, Revelation 5:9-10