An article of faith

Your theory makes no sense Brakelite.

Here are the facts: The Protestant revolutionaries broke away from The Church 500 years ago to start their own churches with their own doctrines because they believed that The Church was not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Then the men that were following those revolutionaries had a revolution of their own and broke away from them because they believed that the original revolutionaries were not being guided by the Holy Spirit. This revolutionary cycle (in general historical terms for sake of argument) has continued for 500+ years! There is no, as your theory suggest, a "coming closer together over time through the leading of that same Spirit". Christianity is imploding because of all you revolutionaries who keep saying things like you said in your above post. Everyone else is wrong and Iam right!

If it is "coming closer together" which direction is it going Brakelite? Back to the oldest Orthodox/Catholic teachings of The Church? No, it is not, so your theory has been debunked.

 

Actually no, the only thing you've debunked is your own strawman. When I have time tomorrow I'll straighten you out.

 

Lol....don't waste our time. You revolutionaries have recently decided that gay marriage is God approved according to Scripture but abortion isn't. Then the revolutionaries inside that cult broke away and said gay marriage AND abortion is God approved according to Scripture. When will your friends who have a 'static understanding of doctrine' that share, according to you, "a common fabric of understanding based on scripture" going to stop revolting. Your theory is debunked and your fellow revolutionaries are the ones who need straightening out!

 

Ah! broad brush strokes of inclusion eventually includes everybody in the same place or destiny and it is not the place they originally wanted to go to, but it is the only place that they can go to because of their hard hearts.

Shalom

 

You don't think I'll be honest with you about protestant history and their many failings? I promise, I will be as honest about protestant failure as I am about Catholic failure. But I will also be honest about both sides in the good that they do, in the loving hope that God has for us all, the bigger picture of God's working through His people (on both sides) in the past, and where we all fall short today. I don't hide behind religiosity and sectarian prejudices. Others of your church here accuse me of being anti Catholic. That's a lie along the same lines that left wing woke people call others homophobic, racist, misogynist, intolerant etc etc. It's just a ploy to diffuse truth and obfuscate the argument. I think you are more intelligent than to do that, and resort to pretty generalizations in order to beat down anothers thoughts and smother ideas different to your own. The post above... Are you trying to prove me wrong???

 

And i will be honest with you all . I used to be in boyscouts and did many good deeds , YET i was headed right to perdition .
My advice is we better learn well the JESUS of said bible and all doctrine they left us . Cause i was a pagan
yet i could do many good deeds . A pagan . Keep that in mind when the CC and her protestant unified let us be one daughters
try and sway folks from the path .

 

I do not know or care if you will be honest about Protestant failure. That is not what we are discussing.

You will never convince me that The Church that Jesus started and the Truth that Jesus preached ever went away. Jesus said you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Your theory suggest that all denominations have some part of the truth and they will eventually come together and figure out what that truth is.

You will never convince me that once the Apostles died The Church no longer had men leading it that had the authority to fulfil Matthew 18:17. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth; just like Scripture says. You can't find the pillar and foundation of Truth that can fulfil Matthew 18:17. I found it. With that said...I am not trying to prove you wrong, your own theory proves you wrong.

 

Then why bring it up?????

 

Jesus started a lot of churches in different places and different times. What particular one are you suggesting I think went away? As for the truth that Jesus taught, no, that never went away, we've always had scripture. There was a long time however where the Catholic Church decided to not allow people to read it.

 

I don't need to prove or disprove anything. I am simply encouraging others to obey the truth as they find it in scripture. Summer won't of course because they have no desire or love for truth. They prefer other teachers. Commentators. Scripture for them is too straight. Too pointed. Too truthful. Scripture is what convicts us of right and wrong through the power of the holy Spirit. Not me. I'm nothing.

 

There were such leaders. Certainly. But the Catholic Church chose leaders who were not in subjection to Christ, and began to murder those who were.

 

Yes-

 

Which leaders were murderers? Yes, we know there were some bad popes, but that does not discredit the doctrine of the papacy, it discredits the person holding the office, not the office itself. You have to go back centuries to scrape up dirt you seem to love so much. Most popes were good servants of the Gospel, many of them were martyred. We will not abandon Peter because of Judas.

 

Ok Brakelite....You made an affirmative statement. Now back it up with facts.

1. Who were those leaders that were leading The Church after the last Apostle died?

2. Who was murdering who?

 

Complete and utter lie. Not logical. Historically not true and can't be proven via Scripture or any historical Christian writing.

What man taught you this?

 

Complete and utter lie. You don't even know Christian history or world history; do you?

 

Why did I bring up the fact that you Protestants are still protesting? Because it's an undeniable fact and there is nothing you can say that will change that sooooo that is why I said I don't care if YOU will be honest about Protestant failures! Because what YOU think on the matter doe not matter to ME one bit. The truth is undeniable....

 

First among those who protested against heathen practices in the church was Helvidius I (c. A.D. 250-420 [sic]). It is interesting to note that three of the outstanding opponents of the papal innovations in Latin Christianity were from northern Italy. These were Helvidius, Jovinian, and Vigilantius. As for Helvidius, all that was written by him and for him has been destroyed. Though he lived a century and a half after Justin Martyr and more than a century after Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen, and Clement, their writings have been preserved, while his were destroyed. Helvidius belonged to the church which strove to hand down the doctrines of the Bible in the pure form. He is famous for his exposure of Jerome for using corrupted Greek manuscripts in bringing out the Vulgate, the Latin Bible of the Papacy. If the thunders of Jerome had not been turned against Helvidius, we would know less concerning him. “Helvidius, a so-called heresiarch of the fourth century, a layman who opposed the growing superstitions of the church... He was a pupil of Auxentius, bishop of Milan, and the precursor of Jovinian.”
Duchesne points out that Auxentius, for twenty years at the head of the diocese of Milan, was from Asia Minor and impressed on those regions the Syrian leadership in Christianity. Daring in his scholarship, Helvidius accused Jerome, as Jerome himself admits, of using corrupt Greek manuscripts. ⁷That part of the ecclesiastical system of the fourth century, which was peculiarly ascetic and rigid, found an impersonation in Jerome, who exhibited its worst and most repulsive traits in the whole tenor of his life and conversation. Sourness, bitterness, envy, intolerance, and dissatisfaction with every manifestation of sanctity which did not come up to his own standard, had become habitual to him, and were betrayed in almost everything that he wrote, said, or did. Censoriousness, and the spirit of invective, were amongst his most strongly marked failings, and the very best men of the age did not escape his censure.”
The second renowned reformer in north Italy and forerunner of Vigilantius was Jovinian (A.D. 330-390). He was so superior in scholarship that the united attempts of such learned advocates of the Papacy as Jerome, Augustine, and Ambrose failed to overthrow his scriptural and historical arguments. Of him Albert H. Newman says: That the protest of Jovinianus awakened great interest and received influential support is evident from the excited polemics of Jerome, and from the public proceedings that were instituted against him in Rome and Milan.... The persistence of the influence of Jovinianus is seen in the movement led by Vigilantius. It is not unlikely that followers of Jovinianus took refuge in the Alpine valleys, and there kept alive the evangelical teaching that was to reappear with vigor in the twelfth century.” Beuzart relates how a learned French historian speaks of the relentless persecution carried on as late as 1215 by monks against so-called heretics named Jovinianists, Patarines, and Albigenses. Jovinian drew the wrath of Jerome because he taught that the lives of married people, all other things being equal, are fully as acceptable in the sight of God as those who are not married; that eating with thanksgiving is as commendable with God as abstemiousness; and that all who are faithful to their baptismal vows will be equally rewarded at the day of judgment. Because of this, Jerome said that Jovinian had “the hissing of the old serpent,” “nauseating trash,” and “the devil’s poisonous concoction.” Vigilantius was convinced that the new system (as opposed to the diastolic system) of austerities, processions, and sacraments did not result in making men preeminently happy and holy. Vigilantins witnessed too many of the ecclesiastical riots of the day.
When Damasus was elected pope, A.D. 366, the dissentions in Rome were so violent that the gates of the basilica, where his rival was consecrated, were broken open, the roof was torn off, the building was set on fire, and one hundred and thirty-seven persons were killed.” Similar ecclesiastical riots were seen at this time in Palestine. Jerome, in one of his epistles, declares that their private quarrels were as furious as were those of the barbarians.