An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Lapidem]

You cannot use human logic to find out God. And you haven't really offered an answer to the premise in the post you quoted. Your first premise, that God's foreknowledge influences your decision making, is unproven.

My premise is that if the outcome of a future choice can be known in advance with 100% certainty then it can't actually be a free choice. I haven't asserted that God influences the choice. What I assert is that if an outcome CAN be known in advance then there MUST be a load of factors which can be computed which lead to the information about that future event. This is why I use the dice rolling as an example. It is possible to KNOW how any dice thrown on Earth will end up because every aspect of the throw is a physical thing being influenced by a gazillion factors, examples of which I've previously given (air temp, pressure, friction, earth's gravity and rotation etc).

Now we as fickle humans don't have the computing power to know and process those gazillion variables BUT if we did we could KNOW in advance how the dice will end up.

Our life choices are no different. They are made because of a gazillion influencing factors which include our past memories, our state of health, the day and time, the chemicals racing around our bodies etc etc. Again as humans we just don't have the computing power to be able to process all those variables. BUT if we did we could know in advance every choice and every action that every human takes.

If there exists an Omniscient and Omnipotent God (and I don't believe there is) then he would have the power and ability to compute all these variables. Consequently the entire future of the universe, absolutely everything is known to him and it's just like a giant movie which he can view at any point, past, present and future. He knows the ultimate end point of mankind and the universe itself.

All this being the case then it should be evident that we don't have choices at all. We are simply acting under the principles of cause and effect. Those gazillion factors MAKE us do the things we do. We can't avoid it. No-one chose to crucify Jesus, it was always going to happen the moment the universe was created or came into being. Cause and effect. No-one chose to kill millions of people with a virus, it was always going to happen via complex cause and effect.

There's just no running away from this.

We have to accept that we either do not have any free will or choices or that there does not exist a being that is Omniscient.

Occam's Razor suggests the latter is the case.

Just because God is omniscient, does not mean He removes your choices.

He doesn't remove anything no. But the fact that he is Omniscient means IT MUST be possible to compute every variable in the universe and thereby know what will happen in the future. If that's possible then we have no choices.
We can in fact remove God entirely from this discussion. It is actually just the concept of Omniscience itself which is the problem.
If we are going to entertain the very notion of Omniscience then we must simultaneously accept there are no free choices. Omniscience basically means that everything is computable and thus knowable in advance and if that's the case there are no free choices, everything is predetermined.

Just because He is omnipotent, does not mean there are things He will not, even can not do. For example, He cannot do anything that contradicts His own innate character and nature, like lie, or do anything that denies His love. And that love demands choice. To deny choice negates love, and God is love.

I disagree with the above. For God to NOT be able to do something would undermine the concept of Omnipotence. God CAN and HAS done many things which are not loving. He has murdered men, women, children and babies. He has killed even unborn babies. He has sent bears to maul children, engaged in ethnic cleansing and ultimately genocide.
If it had been Hitler or Pol Pot that had done this you would be utterly outraged and think him repugnant. Christians are sadly indoctrinated to compartmentalise these wicked actions recorded in the OT and sweep them under the carpet and ignore them. That is why most can not critical think. I've been there myself. Luckily I broke free.

 

[Mr E]

Let me give an example:

Let's say that people reincarnate. First as a rich man then as a poor man.

Your first life as a rich man, you indulge in luxuries, which don't make you happy, and you ignore the poor.

Then in your second life, you incarnate as a poor man. You suffer hunger and all the plagues of the earth, then die without hope.

Next life, you are a rich man again, and have some instinctive recollection of your past life, call it empathy, and donate to the poor. This leaves you feeling more spiritually fulfilled.

Im the next life, you are poor again and benefit from the generosity of others.

In each cycle, a man has complete freedom to act as he chooses, but begins to learn how to be happy, and makes better choices each time. This is how God transforms a man from evil to good, without removing free will.

Many, many days ago, a man crawled up from the great ocean coughing and spitting water. He climbed naked up the shore through the mud, covering himself with earth. He looked back into the water- and seeing his face reflected, now covered in earth this way, said—“I know not this person.”

He looked out into the vastness of the waters and turned to see a mountain rising high above him, -and with the water behind him, he began to climb.

After a time, a great wind blew from the North and swept him down from the mountain and far out to sea.

Many more days passed, and once again a man crawled from the great ocean coughing and spitting water. He climbed naked up the shore again, through the mud- covering himself with it in the process. He looked back into the water and again, he didn’t recognize himself in the image he saw, covered in earth as it was. “I know not this person.”

Behind him, a mountain- so he turned and began to climb. Along the way as he climbed he saw what looked like tracks- indications of someone’s passing, but he met no one as he climbed.

The sun was hot, and after a short time the mud that he was covered with began to dry and crack- and from his stiffened joints he stumbled and fell from the cliff into the waters below.

As before, a man crawled from the great ocean coughing and spitting water. He climbed naked up the shore through the mud covering himself with the earth. He looked down at the water and said- “I know not this person.”

He looked out into the vastness of the waters and turned to see a mountain rising high above him, -and with the water behind him, and he began to climb.

Along the way as he climbed he looked and saw what really seemed to be the indications of someone’s passing, but still he met no one as he climbed.

The sun grew hot. The mud began to dry and cake and crack and he struggled against the weight of it, but then it began to rain. The rain was fierce and the mountain often gave way, sliding and tumbling beneath his feet with each step, but the man climbed on and as he did the rain washed the earth from his face and body. He looked down into a small puddle of standing water and seeing his reflection free of all that earth he said-- “I know not this person.”

He climbed onward and upward and seeing signs along the way, he realized that it was he that had passed this way many times before.

 

[I.O.U]

The traits of God are taken to be: omnipotence (absolute power), benevolence (absolute love) and omniscience (absolute knowledge). These three traits are actually in fact the same trait, because with ultimate knowledge comes ultimate power and ultimate understanding. The lack of any one of these things is a deficiency born out of ignorance. Once a man has elevated his perspective, he cannot go back to the ignorance he left behind, he will always progress in some form towards gaining wisdom and power. Because the soul exists forever, it can evolve forever. Inevitably, everything will achieve ultimate understanding, and thus "submission" to God (1 Corinthians 15). They will no longer be a separate being with a separate will.

So, take for example the classical understanding of the trinity, you have 3 entities (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) which are in fact the same entity, because any being which has omniscience will essentially be God and will have the same mind as God.

So the ultimate fate of all things will be, to come by either benevolence or knowledge of sin (IE pain and repentence), to this unity which I spoke of.

You humans are so insane. You just can't own up to the fact that your beliefs are causing all this misery. I can't stand looking at people knowing what they believe is destroying everything. What's even worse is that you keep inventing new beliefs to correct the old ones, not even realising that no matter how much you believe it ends the same way. I've got to die, I can't conceive any other way to co-exist with you believer's. I don't think I can deal with one more Christmas.

 

[I.O.U]

(let's see if you delete this)

 

[Adam]

You humans are so insane. You just can't own up to the fact that your beliefs are causing all this misery. I can't stand looking at people knowing what they believe is destroying everything. What's even worse is that you keep inventing new beliefs to correct the old ones, not even realising that no matter how much you believe it ends the same way. I've got to die, I can't conceive any other way to co-exist with you believer's. I don't think I can deal with one more Christmas.

I don't even understand why you are upset

 

[Gottservant]

You can't continue to accuse God of knowing in advance what people will do, when He remains focused on the transition from free-will to spiritual-will.

God may know what someone is going to do something with their "free-will", but He cannot say for certain what the point of that freedom will be - so He can't step in and say "no, you are not to do that". Likewise, God may know that someone is a believer, but He cannot say for certain what they will do with their spiritual-will - so He cannot step in and say "here is your reward already, you don't have to suffer through it".

The qualification you are missing then is, God knows as much as is possible to know. In other words, God can see a square circle, but He can't create it; likewise God can create the illusion of a square circle, but He can't force you to see it.

You've got to get out of your head, that God somehow schemes to grow in power, when He has already done all good that can be done, in Christ Jesus - it's like you're saying "If God was really God, He could have done more through Jesus on the Cross" it doesn't make sense, nothing more could have been done!

 

[I.O.U]

I don't even understand why you are upset

I am more than upset about this whole thing. Hang on a minute (Why is it that I feel completely calm today?) This is not the usual emotional bombardment I have been putting up with for years. Odd that it dropped out after I posted about ending my life on a public forum. Odd indeed. I do figure if I destroy my body the connection will also be destroyed.
What do you think?

 

[I.O.U]

Now I can feel that outside emotion gripping me with (Like being knifed to my heart) or more like (Emotional jabs in my heart) and that other feeling (I dare not go into that)

 

[I.O.U]

I'm outa here.

 

[I.O.U]

I have noticed that when people believe in something they claim to be a truth, there is always another group who'll be opposed to that truth with their belief. Does a God give us total freedom or not? Yes and no says each side, and then there's some who'll say it's both. But so long as belief remains as a belief there will always be conflict between people. We can apply this concept to every possible facet of believing in our society. It works the same way when elected officials believe in their truths, or what the retail industries beliefs are, or the homosexual communities beliefs, the fashion industries and their beliefs. It's an endless list of piling one belief on another, till the bitter end.

 

[Adam]

I am more than upset about this whole thing. Hang on a minute (Why is it that I feel completely calm today?) This is not the usual emotional bombardment I have been putting up with for years. Odd that it dropped out after I posted about ending my life on a public forum. Odd indeed. I do figure if I destroy my body the connection will also be destroyed.
What do you think?

I'm not familiar with your situation

I have noticed that when people believe in something they claim to be a truth, there is always another group who'll be opposed to that truth with their belief. Does a God give us total freedom or not? Yes and no says each side, and then there's some who'll say it's both. But so long as belief remains as a belief there will always be conflict between people. We can apply this concept to every possible facet of believing in our society. It works the same way when elected officials believe in their truths, or what the retail industries beliefs are, or the homosexual communities beliefs, the fashion industries and their beliefs. It's an endless list of piling one belief on another, till the bitter end.

People believe different things. It doesn't mean that an objective truth doesn't exist or that it cannot be revealed.

 

[I.O.U]

I'm not familiar with your situation


People believe different things. It doesn't mean that an objective truth doesn't exist or that it cannot be revealed.

I myself am not even familiar with that situation. I am not sure the emotional entanglement I think is originating from my daughter isn't just another belief that is manufacturing those emotional experiences for its own survival. I can see logically how a belief could have formed over the year's (But I am stuck) I know that when I push against it and treat it as a belief that shouldn't be there, it becomes hurt, leaves, then returns soon enough all kissy kissy like. It's totally weird.

 

[Adam]

I myself am not even familiar with that situation. I am not sure the emotional entanglement I think is originating from my daughter isn't just another belief that is manufacturing those emotional experiences for its own survival. I can see logically how a belief could have formed over the year's (But I am stuck) I know that when I push against it and treat it as a belief that shouldn't be there, it becomes hurt, leaves, then returns soon enough all kissy kissy like. It's totally weird.

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

You should love your daughter. God split himself apart so that he could love himself.

 

[I.O.U]

I still have no idea what you're talking about.

You should love your daughter. God split himself apart so that he could love himself.

When did God split himself apart? As in 3 in 1 trinity?

 

[Adam]

When did God split himself apart? As in 3 in 1 trinity?

At the very minimum, 100 billion in 1, since that is the number of people who have ever lived in our world, each of them a vessel for the spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

And that is not counting other forms of life and the likelihood of other worlds and dimensions.

 

[humbleseeker]

Revelation says the names were entered into the book of life before the foundation of the world. This could only be done by God knowing our final status regarding salvation or damnation. So God knew this before we were born because he knew what happened in the future - but what happened in the future was based on decisions made of our own free will. Notice we are describing the future here as if it happened in the past but that's ok for God because time is a human construct and God is not bound by human constructs.
God knowing our decisions vs God causing our decisions are two very different things. Free will remains intact. For example - you can choose to accept God this very moment and have your name added to the book of life, or not.

 

[Matthias]

When did God split himself apart? As in 3 in 1 trinity?

The one true God - the God and Father of Jesus - is indivisible.

Trinitarians should be telling you that their deity is also indivisible.

 

[I.O.U]

The one true God - the God and Father of Jesus - is indivisible.

Trinitarians should be telling you that their deity is also indivisible.

I don't know what to say. I'd like to say something about your post, but I feel okay (Weirdly okay) to leave it for another day. I have no idea what that means so I guess that's it.

 

[[email protected]]

I confess I gave up on this waffle about half way down. It seems your whole schtick here is to try and redefine what the term Omniscience means which I think puts pay to your entire spiel. Omniscience is all-knowing. Christianity maintains that God is all-knowing. To put it in simple terms there is nothing that he does not know. It's not a difficult term to understand nor does it need your attempted diversion to suggest there are different types of Omniscience. This is a Christian forum/website so the only type of Omniscience that is relevant is that which Christianity claims for its God. Here's the definition from Christianity.com:

What Does it Mean That God Is Omniscient?

God’s knowledge is unlimited. Knowing that God is omniscient should allow us to trust His will, His Word, and His timing. Though we don’t know all the answers, God does.

www.christianity.com

"When Christians say God is omniscient, they mean that God knows all things — the past, present, and future. God is the source of all knowledge. God also knows all the potentialities of any situation. God knows every person’s thoughts — even before they think it."

You can read the rest of the article at your leisure.

We can cut to the chase pretty simply here. The Christian God is either Omniscient or he is not. Christianity claims that he is and claim it in the way stated above. i.e. that God knows all things even before they happen, past, present and future.

Now whether you accept that is totally irrelevant. It IS what Christianity claims. This isn't a thread discussing what Christianity claims. It begins from the position that Christianity DOES claim that its God is all-knowing, period.

On that basis my opening gambit stands. If everything can be known in advance of it happening then everything is predetermined. If an Omniscient God knows you are going to make choice C from A, B or C and that God is perfect and incapable of error, then you can not choose anything but C. Options A and B are therefore illusions. False options. Not really options at all. It's really this simple.



No it is NOT an offered choice. It may appear to a human to be a choice but if God already knows what the outcome will be it can not be a true choice at all. It is what stage magicians refer to as Hobson's choice, the kind of choice where a magician says "pick a card" as if it were a free choice but the reality is that he knows exactly which card you are going to pick because the whole thing has been set up.

The only way anyone can ever have a totally free choice is:

1. If absolutely no-one can predict the outcome in advance with 100% certainty
2. If there are no adverse consequences to any of the choices that force you to pick one of the other choices

So the fact that the Christian is alleged to be Omniscient and thus knows all our decisions before they are made means that they are not real decisions/choices at all. Humans simply don't understand the aspects of the set up environment and so to them it appears to be free choice.

Christianity claims God is all knowing?

One can use scripture to justify any dogma. Adolph Hitler claimed "Gott mitt uns" Meaning 'God is with us.' Was He? HE was NOT.

Americans like to cry "God bless America". It's the same cry as Nazis used. Has He blessed? We've not won a war since 1945 and our economy, the dollar, is currently in free fall. Is this evidence of blessing or proof of a country and a people who have turned their back upon God and are reaping the consequences of their CHOICE?

God does not bless nations that adopt Genocide, slavery and endless war as Germany AND America have done. (Ask any Native American or African-American)

Where is God in history?

Your assertion that God is all knowing is good only as far as human understanding leads.
Your assertion that God is all knowing assumes that human destiny is predetermined.

Human destiny is the grave. That's it and that's all.

What isn't explained in the simplistic assertion that no one has a CHOICE. Salvation is by grace AND CHOICE.

What isn't admitted is that God allows choice. Without it the necessity of Christ's death upon the cross becomes an unnecessary academic exercise.

What is assumed is that humans are automatically and Totally depraved - doomed to destruction. They aren't.

God in His divine mercy has given humans the opportunity to CHOOSE life or death, faith or denial. (Joshua 24:15a)

The statement of divine omniscience is a perverse definition of the character of God - stretching it to the point God's mercy goes off the rails and He becomes nothing more than a Holy Satan - murdering innocent people without justification.

Nowhere does the Bible assert that God decides who will be saved and who won't. This doesn't mean that certain perverse types haven't tried to force it into the minds of men. They've tried, but it doesn't work.

God's LAW, not Calvinist antiSemitic dogma, states a choice is available to the sons of man.
God's LAW hasn't changed nor has it been abolished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

God's LAW, not a tulip, tells us we have the opportunity to CHOOSE grace to be saved.......or not.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[I.O.U]

At the very minimum, 100 billion in 1, since that is the number of people who have ever lived in our world, each of them a vessel for the spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

And that is not counting other forms of life and the likelihood of other worlds and dimensions.

This is all about you. Just getting me to believe the beliefs in your head. You don't give a rat's about knowing me and being personally involved, it's all about getting another notch on your belt. I know you'll flat out deny it, flat out turn the tables around. Sorry but Christian love stinks.