An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Any existence would end up being a prison that you would want to escape from. What you would want is the power and ability to change existence to your will. If there exists a God then this is where he is at. He has the power. We do not. Such power is denied us. The secret knowledge is denied us. God forbade us to partake of that knowledge. He wants to be the master, the dictator, the boss. He rules at our expense.
<ignored>
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sin is a false concept peddled by the Church. It's the key psychological trick use to get people to voluntarily place themselves in a position vulnerability and need so that the Church can offer the solution. The universe has no concept of right or wrong. God has engaged in all manner of actions that humans would deem wicked, evil and wrong. He has done whatever he wanted to do. He has killed men, women and children at will. He has killed unborn children. He has engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Church is a despotic organisation peddling lies and preying on vulnerable people using psychological warfare to bludgeon people into conformity. I'm so glad I woke up to it an escaped.
<ignored>
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Any existence would end up being a prison that you would want to escape from. What you would want is the power and ability to change existence to your will. If there exists a God then this is where he is at. He has the power. We do not. Such power is denied us. The secret knowledge is denied us. God forbade us to partake of that knowledge. He wants to be the master, the dictator, the boss. He rules at our expense.
Not true. The Bible says that God will make his faithful servants ruler over all that He owns. If you are the child of God, then what does a child grow up into? If God is omniscient, then isnt any being which is also omniscient, therefore also God?

God will give you whatever power and experiences you seek, but only if you have the wisdom to use them correctly. Imagine being alive for ETERNITY and, as you stated you wanted, only being able to feel one thing, forever. Would you not, after countless aeons, wish for a death that could never come? What kind of experiences would you create if you could create anything? If you seek fleshly pleasures then there will come an aeon of eternity when all the wine and women will be loathsome to you. I am sure you might have more creativity than that, but the same principle applies, of being unable to amuse yourself infinitely. Gaining the wisdom to live forever, responsibly, is why we are here.

Matthew 24

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


Sin is a false concept peddled by the Church. It's the key psychological trick use to get people to voluntarily place themselves in a position vulnerability and need so that the Church can offer the solution. The universe has no concept of right or wrong. God has engaged in all manner of actions that humans would deem wicked, evil and wrong. He has done whatever he wanted to do. He has killed men, women and children at will. He has killed unborn children. He has engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Church is a despotic organisation peddling lies and preying on vulnerable people using psychological warfare to bludgeon people into conformity. I'm so glad I woke up to it and escaped.
Have you ever felt unhappy in your life? That is the result of sin. The church didn't invent unhappiness.

Imagine being God. EVERYTHING that exists is a part of you. You cannot hate anything that exists, because if you did, it would mean you hate yourself.

Now imagine being alive, forever, with the seeds of unhappiness and hatred. Magnify them across eternity in an endless feedback loop, and your existence is now hell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

I.O.U

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,813
329
83
Brisbane
Faith
Agnostic
Country
Australia
Have you ever heard me requesting blind faith from you? I believe that a person should exercise their judgement, and neither should they believe in a contradiction.

I have heard all sorts of nonsense and lazy half-answers from Christians on Christianity; university professors on history and social science; politicians on the state of the economy; etc. All people who are supposed to be experts but are utterly incompetent or deceitful at explaining their position. Yet I don't suppose we should set fire to museums or the department of the treasury? Just like Galileo used a flawed argument from the tides to push heliocentrism, a woefully incorrect proof, his conclusion was correct, regardless of his botched thesis. An authority putting forward a flawed proof does not necessitate a flawed conclusion. A correct conclusion exists even if all the fools in the world fail to explain it.

If you asked me what "surrender" meant in the context of Christianity, I wouldn't say that it meant to surrender your judgement, but to surrender your resistance to that "rain", to whatever fate may bring you; and rather than focus on that outer world, focus on the inner world of what your experiences bring out in you. It is a matter of personal development, not of blind faith. The faith comes first, through whatever means it may come to you, logic or intuition, and then once you have the faith, then comes the surrender to the knowledge that your life is in God's hands and the universe will always, forever, inexorably work to your spiritual benefit.
I am returning to Melbourne Australia. Got that! L
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
Not true. The Bible says that God will make his faithful servants ruler over all that He owns. If you are the child of God, then what does a child grow up into? If God is omniscient, then isnt any being which is also omniscient, therefore also God?
Nope. According to your definition of God you need to be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omni-benevolent. One of those doesn't make a God does it?! God isn't seeking to make us like him. He's seeking worshippers, followers, subjects. No man will ever have his power or knowledge. They might be granted snippets of certain powers or abilities, like Jesus giving the Philosopher's Stone to his close disciples but little more. There is a pecking order always. This is seen throughout thee world for eons. The pyramid structure. Dictators, rulers, freemasons etc etc.

Only when we are free of dictators and such rulers are we free ourselves and that we never will be whilst trapped in the prison we are born into.

God will give you whatever power and experiences you seek, but only if you have the wisdom to use them correctly.
No he won't. Even Jesus failed to give the Stone to everyone. Kept it for himself and his disciples.

Have you ever felt unhappy in your life? That is the result of sin. The church didn't invent unhappiness.
No it's not the result of sin at all. The church didn't invent unhappiness that's true. The church DID invent sin though as the means to hook vulnerable people into their system of control.

Imagine being God. EVERYTHING that exists is a part of you. You cannot hate anything that exists, because if you did, it would mean you hate yourself.
If I am a part of God then nothing matters does it? I am immortal and will eventually reform with all thee other bits.

Now imagine being alive, forever, with the seeds of unhappiness and hatred. Magnify them across eternity in an endless feedback loop, and your existence is now hell.
You are already in such an eternity. You have been here in one form or another for billions of years. Unfortunately the ability to shape your existence is removed from you. Your memories of all those past iterations is removed from you. The abilities you should have are removed from you. You are a prisoner, neutered by an external force/being(s) who have long since doctored human DNA so that wee can only be half the people we are supposed to be. Engaging in fantasies isn't going to help your lot.
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
According to your definition of God you need to be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omni-benevolent. One of those doesn't make a God does it?!
It absolutely does. All 4 are in fact the same trait. With ultimate knowledge comes ultimate power and ultimate understanding. You cannot have one without the other. And you cannot have omniscience: the mind of God, without thinking like God and therefore being God.

If your soul exists forever, it can evolve forever. Therefore there is one beginning and ending to all things.

And neither can God hate or seek to control anything since all things originate from Him. As I said before, for God to hate anything means God hates himself, which is not possible in the context of infinite life.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
And neither can God hate or seek to control anything since all things originate from Him. As I said before, for God to hate anything means God hates himself, which is not possible in the context of infinite life.
Yet the Bible is replete with verses about God's hate . . . . .
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Yet the Bible is replete with verses about God's hate . . . . .
1 Samuel 2:6
Jehovah putteth to death, and keepeth alive, He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

God's anger is brief and purely corrective in nature.
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
1 Samuel 2:6
Jehovah putteth to death, and keepeth alive, He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.

Psalm 30:5
For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

God's anger is brief and purely corrective in nature.
And, I would also like to add, that the soul is eternal, and death is not the end, so death itself can be corrective. All men who have sinned are fated to die by one cause or another, for this reason.
 

Gottservant

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2022
1,816
519
113
45
Greensborough
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Sin is a false concept peddled by the Church. It's the key psychological trick use to get people to voluntarily place themselves in a position vulnerability and need so that the Church can offer the solution.

If a doctor said to you, "you have cancer" would you say "that's just a trick to get me to pay for an operation"?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss
ha well you might tell all that to a mother who can unerringly predict what one of her children will do lol
 
  • Love
Reactions: Adam

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Sin is a false concept peddled by the Church. It's the key psychological trick use to get people to voluntarily place themselves in a position vulnerability and need so that the Church can offer the solution.
so then dont accept organized religion’s concept of “sin”

The universe has no concept of right or wrong
but ppl do, which is what matters. You have been wronged, and you have wronged others
have you not?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adam

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
If a doctor said to you, "you have cancer" would you say "that's just a trick to get me to pay for an operation"?

Actually in many cases yes I would. Most particularly with women. The practice of mammography has such huge bad press now that I doubt it can go on much longer. The Swiss Medical Board a few years ago recommended that:

"no new mammography screening programmes should be introduced in Switzerland and that the existing ones should be phased out."

This would be the subject for a thread of its own but the bottom line for me is that the medical industry has long since become the front line sales force for Pharmaceuticals and I would touch the industry with a barge pole unless in the direst emergency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Can you define "wrong" and explain why it is as you suggest it is?
well, i would say that your social interactions, in the society that you include yourself in, would mostly determine that? I have Asperger’s, probably, so that is a strange subject to me anyway, but i have observed that pretty much any action one takes might upset someone. “Wrong” would i guess even vary from interaction to interaction. I do my best not to give offense, nor be offended, since imo that is the essence of “eating the fruit”
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Have you ever heard me requesting blind faith from you? I believe that a person should exercise their judgement, and neither should they believe in a contradiction.

I have heard all sorts of nonsense and lazy half-answers from Christians on Christianity; university professors on history and social science; politicians on the state of the economy; etc. All people who are supposed to be experts but are utterly incompetent or deceitful at explaining their position. Yet I don't suppose we should set fire to museums or the department of the treasury? Just like Galileo used a flawed argument from the tides to push heliocentrism, a woefully incorrect proof, his conclusion was correct, regardless of his botched thesis. An authority putting forward a flawed proof does not necessitate a flawed conclusion. A correct conclusion exists even if all the fools in the world fail to explain it.

If you asked me what "surrender" meant in the context of Christianity, I wouldn't say that it meant to surrender your judgement, but to surrender your resistance to that "rain", to whatever fate may bring you; and rather than focus on that outer world, focus on the inner world of what your experiences bring out in you. It is a matter of personal development, not of blind faith. The faith comes first, through whatever means it may come to you, logic or intuition, and then once you have the faith, then comes the surrender to the knowledge that your life is in God's hands and the universe will always, forever, inexorably work to your spiritual benefit.
word

The reality unfolding around us doesn't support this somewhat fantasy ideology. Christians the world over are dying horribly or are suffering horribly, just like everyone else. Despite their faith many died in hospitals in agony both physical from being unable to breathe and spiritual via their partners and family being denied access to the hospitals where they were dying.
well, you use “faith” as a noun there, like most believers, but i suggest that that is prolly more like “belief,” and let’s admit that Christians the world over are also enjoying living happily and not suffering at all, just like everyone else? Everyone dies, and i imagine every death is horrible to someone? I am going to die, and it is probably not going to be my favorite day. Doesnt mean that i cant have good days until then though
They died in utter despair and misery and their partners will never get over the torment and anguish of having not been allowed to be by their partners side when they passed away. The hurt and torment is just unbelievable to comprehend.
you dont think that that is a bit dramatic? Yes, they will get over it, and after all they chose to goto hospital, and they even made the choices that made them vulnerable to a virus. Or why is it that i, in a vulnerable group, suffered none of that, and i dont know anyone who did?

Not saying it doesnt exist, and i certainly sympathize with those under that burden, but we have known for many years that eating SAD is bad for ones health, right? Are you blaming God for other ppls poor choices? Then how are you not on a fool’s errand?
Christians are unfortunately in total denial and are hoodwinked by the church and the psychological conditioning it perpetrates on the vulnerable. The tiniest bit of innate reasoning and logic and honest thinking should be enough to tell anyone that the message being given is false in some way.
Believe it or not they are responsible for themselves, just like you are, and they can either figure that out or not, just like you have. Do you think that you can help ppl in denial? Or are you just determined to see a glass half empty here
If these heinous evil acts were the work of a dictator like Hitler then people would be appalled and most certainly would not worship him. But when you tell Christians that their God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving they just compartmentalise these atrocities and ignore them because they simply can't cope with the notion that they have been duped, very very badly duped. Self-pride and lack of humility keeps them in the psychological state of denial. This is most disastrous to their well-being and state of mind.
and what if you are completely mistaken, and all of those are self-inflicted? Wasnt Hitler practically worshipped, before he was found out and vilified? I think he even got a Nobel prize or something? Regardless, what does any of that have to do with you? Why dwell on things that you have no power to change, and that dont even concern you?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I mean guess what? We have Hitlers in power right now, in our own governments, financing biolabs in unfriendly countries, and apparently seeking our destruction, and definitely seeking the destruction of democratically elected governments in foreign countries, right. Are you afraid? Then be, very, afraid. And dont get me wrong, i will sympathize with you, too, but you do not have to be a believer in the Christian God to leave the world—i mean, they dont—and it is entirely up to you whether you operate in fear or in faith.

My guess is that most of your problems would disappear if you just turned off the effing news and go start a garden or something. Or i mean focus on the world, and piss and moan about how unfair God is to you, it is entirely your choice. But at least you might recognize that being pissed at a God that you do not even believe in, let alone have faith in, is a bit counterproductive
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
you dont think that that is a bit dramatic?
No not in the least. Those people who suffered that particular anguish are never going to forget it and will be living it over and over even now. Imagine living maybe 40-50yrs with your partner sharing life, love and happiness then suddenly your partner gets ill, starts struggling to breathe and calls 911 and is taken to hospital in an ambulance. Imagine then being told you can't come, you can't see your partner, you know they are on a ventilator in absolute misery and you instinctively know that all they would want is to hold your hand one last time and say goodbye. Instead they spend their last moments in some awful hospital surrounded by strangers desperately wanting to tell their partners and family how much they love them. All because the globalists/elites and the governments they control overhyped a virus with a fatality rate of less than 0.5%. It was utterly wicked and people should be doing jail time for the actions they took.

Yes, they will get over it, and after all they chose to goto hospital, and they even made the choices that made them vulnerable to a virus. Or why is it that i, in a vulnerable group, suffered none of that, and i dont know anyone who did?
The human body is innately vulnerable to all manner of things, part of the evidence that there is no perfect godly designer involved. Whilst we can do our best to keep our bodies in shape it's still extremely easy to create pathogens that can harm a human body and kill it. On the other hand there exist many therapeutic drugs that can treat Covid but which were denied to hospital patients because their use would have threatened the "Emergency Usage Authorisation" of the vaccines. Again that's more of the utterly wicked actions of the globalists who put profit and agendas over human health and live.

Are you blaming God for other ppls poor choices? Then how are you not on a fool’s errand?
I can't blame an entity that does not exist. All I can do is point out the stupidity of others who have laid aside rational thought and critical thinking. To witness all the atrocities that have gone on in the past 3 years and not question one's own faith and see that there can not exist a God that is both all-powerful and all-loving is an exercise in self-denial.

Believe it or not they are responsible for themselves, just like you are, and they can either figure that out or not, just like you have. Do you think that you can help ppl in denial?
Yes people can be helped. Once the spark of inspiration is lit there follows a chain of events and thought pathways that enable people to reach the point where they can think critically and exercise rational thought. It's not about proving that God doesn't exist. It's about demonstrating that the concept of God peddled by the church can not possibly be true and that mainstream religion is distracting people from the true spiritual journey they should be making. It enslaves people by exploiting their vulnerabilities. As a society we can only move forward and evolve when people put aside silly fears, reject the psychological scaremongering and exercise critical thinking.
Regardless, what does any of that have to do with you? Why dwell on things that you have no power to change, and that dont even concern you?
Things CAN be changed and indeed need to be changed and yes they do concern me and everyone else as highlighted upthread because these behavioural control systems (religions) impact everyone's lives, result in laws being created, result in wars and manner of things.