An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Gottservant]

You're ignoring that you have a choice.

It is everyone's personal obligation to choose for themselves.

Christianity comes about, when we recognise in Christ, that we have chosen something similar to our brothers.

 

[n2thelight]

God does not know whom will choose Him ,except for those who were chosen in Him before this age, and they were chosen for a reason.

 

[Adam]

Like I mentioned many moons ago. When someone accepts a belief they have actually allowed a false fact to pass itself off as truth. In Christianity it's urged for all new members to "Surrender" surrender is this method for introducing all manner of false sensory information as a real factual sense. Which I've already argued with myself can someone under a false medium as this be restored? I don't think so looking at how persistent true believers are. This has to be where I walk away, it's become greatly painful to continue talking about this here. There's nothing to be gained in spending my energy here when I need to put it into other endeavour's that won't cost so much.

Have you ever heard me requesting blind faith from you? I believe that a person should exercise their judgement, and neither should they believe in a contradiction.

I have heard all sorts of nonsense and lazy half-answers from Christians on Christianity; university professors on history and social science; politicians on the state of the economy; etc. All people who are supposed to be experts but are utterly incompetent or deceitful at explaining their position. Yet I don't suppose we should set fire to museums or the department of the treasury? Just like Galileo used a flawed argument from the tides to push heliocentrism, a woefully incorrect proof, his conclusion was correct, regardless of his botched thesis. An authority putting forward a flawed proof does not necessitate a flawed conclusion. A correct conclusion exists even if all the fools in the world fail to explain it.

If you asked me what "surrender" meant in the context of Christianity, I wouldn't say that it meant to surrender your judgement, but to surrender your resistance to that "rain", to whatever fate may bring you; and rather than focus on that outer world, focus on the inner world of what your experiences bring out in you. It is a matter of personal development, not of blind faith. The faith comes first, through whatever means it may come to you, logic or intuition, and then once you have the faith, then comes the surrender to the knowledge that your life is in God's hands and the universe will always, forever, inexorably work to your spiritual benefit.

 

[Lapidem]

God does not know whom will choose Him

Were your statement true, it would mean God is not omniscient. Your statement does not remotely follow what the Bible says.

 

[Lapidem]

The faith comes first, through whatever means it may come to you, logic or intuition, and then once you have the faith, then comes the surrender to the knowledge that your life is in God's hands and the universe will always, forever, inexorably work to your spiritual benefit.

The reality unfolding around us doesn't support this somewhat fantasy ideology. Christians the world over are dying horribly or are suffering horribly, just like everyone else. Despite their faith many died in hospitals in agony both physical from being unable to breathe and spiritual via their partners and family being denied access to the hospitals where they were dying. They died in utter despair and misery and their partners will never get over the torment and anguish of having not been allowed to be by their partners side when they passed away. The hurt and torment is just unbelievable to comprehend. Christians are unfortunately in total denial and are hoodwinked by the church and the psychological conditioning it perpetrates on the vulnerable. The tiniest bit of innate reasoning and logic and honest thinking should be enough to tell anyone that the message being given is false in some way. If these heinous evil acts were the work of a dictator like Hitler then people would be appalled and most certainly would not worship him. But when you tell Christians that their God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving they just compartmentalise these atrocities and ignore them because they simply can't cope with the notion that they have been duped, very very badly duped. Self-pride and lack of humility keeps them in the psychological state of denial. This is most disastrous to their well-being and state of mind.

 

[Adam]

The reality unfolding around us doesn't support this somewhat fantasy ideology. Christians the world over are dying horribly or are suffering horribly, just like everyone else. Despite their faith many died in hospitals in agony both physical from being unable to breathe and spiritual via their partners and family being denied access to the hospitals where they were dying. They died in utter despair and misery and their partners will never get over the torment and anguish of having not been allowed to be by their partners side when they passed away. The hurt and torment is just unbelievable to comprehend.

The old "why would a perfect God create a world filled with suffering?" argument.

There is a deeper question: why would a perfect God create a universe at all? Once you understand the answer to this, you will also understand why there is suffering.

Christians are unfortunately in total denial and are hoodwinked by the church and the psychological conditioning it perpetrates on the vulnerable. The tiniest bit of innate reasoning and logic and honest thinking should be enough to tell anyone that the message being given is false in some way. If these heinous evil acts were the work of a dictator like Hitler then people would be appalled and most certainly would not worship him. But when you tell Christians that their God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-loving they just compartmentalise these atrocities and ignore them because they simply can't cope with the notion that they have been duped, very very badly duped. Self-pride and lack of humility keeps them in the psychological state of denial. This is most disastrous to their well-being and state of mind.

What atrocities? What does any of this mean, in the context of eternity? The same rain falls on the wicked and the just, and it is by what comes forth from this rain that men are judged. Pain and suffering are just illusions, and the obsession with the trivial struggles of this life come from the belief that this life is all there is.

 

[Adam]

This is most disastrous to their well-being and state of mind.

And I keep hearing this implication from you and IOU that theists are somehow mentally ill.

Does having peace and contentment with fate, whatever it may bring, disturb one's mental state? I have never observed this to be true. Rather what I find disturbs a man's mental state is the idea that there is no hope, that their suffering is random and unfair and insurmountable. If one makes peace with fate, then anything that comes against him cannot move him from his seat, not all the armies of heaven or hell.

 

[Lapidem]

The old "why would a perfect God create a world filled with suffering?" argument.

No not a perfect God, an all-powerful AND all-loving God.

We can only judge an entity according to our own perceptions and standards of life. We deem Hitler and Pol Pott and perhaps Putin now as wicked dictators who would kill millions at will and cause immense suffering. Under human standards of living and societal cohesion we do not worship such people. We do not consider them loving individuals. Yet people can clearly be hoodwinked to worship and love another entity who equally kills millions of people, causes or permits immense suffering and engages in all manner of atrocities.
Whether there exist other lives, dimensions is pretty irrelevant when we are currently trapped in this existence. We must deal with the life we find ourselves in at this point and all the evidence suggests that there is no all-powerful all-loving God.

There might be an all-powerful God, but he can not be all-loving going by the heinous acts he has done in the past and the evils he permits to occur in this existence.

There may be an all-loving God, but he can not be all-powerful again going by the evils he perpetrates and permits to happen

There is a deeper question: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?

Because such an entity would be bored to tears and probably made it as a kind of fish tank to watch for amusement not caring at all about the suffering of the countless lives within it. That's the all-powerful but NOT all-loving entity.

What atrocities? What does any of this mean, in the context of eternity? The same rain falls on the wicked and the just, and it is by what comes forth from this rain that men are judged. Pain and suffering are just illusions, and the obsession with the trivial struggles of this life come from the belief that this life is all there is.

This is a rather glib and loveless attitude. You don't care then that 1000s of innocent children are sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile? In your mind it's nothing. Eternity is bigger and that part of it is insignificant. Thus in turn every horrific act in the history of the universe is insignificant, doesn't matter? Where does such reasoning end?

It would mean it doesn't matter if we kill someone as it's just a part of eternity and presumably the person you killed will just go on in another life? Nothing matters, there are no rules, you can do as you please?

Somehow this doesn't gel with the Christian doctrine and ideology but I concede it's highly likely to be the actual reality. Nothing matters, you can do as you please and those with all the wealth and power know this which is how they achieved that status.

 

[Adam]

No not a perfect God, an all-powerful AND all-loving God.

Yes, that is my point, an all-powerful and all loving and omniscient and perfect God.

Don't ask "why is there suffering", ask why ANYTHING, pain, pleasure, knowledge, ignorance, death life, matter energy, why does ANYTHING at all exist? This is the deeper question which will reveal the answer to the lesser question.

Because such an entity would be bored to tears and probably made it as a kind of fish tank to watch for amusement not caring at all about the suffering of the countless lives within it. That's the all-powerful but NOT all-loving entity.

Not a fish tank, and neither motivated by boredom.

1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

This is a rather glib and loveless attitude. You don't care then that 1000s of innocent children are sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile? In your mind it's nothing. Eternity is bigger and that part of it is insignificant. Thus in turn every horrific act in the history of the universe is insignificant, doesn't matter

Genesis 9:6
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Matthew 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In the end, everything is one. So there is no evil which is not rectified by being measured back to the evildoer in equal measure.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

 

[Lapidem]

As I said . . . "You don't care then that 1000s of innocent children are sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile"

Nothing you posted there excuses such heinous events and suffering when it can be prevented.
Either God is not all-powerful and is thus powerless to prevent such attrocities
Or God is powerful enough but is not all-loving, totally indifferent to it, just couldn't care less

Or of course there just isn't any such God at all !

 

[Adam]

As I said . . . "You don't care then that 1000s of innocent children are sexually abused by the likes of Jimmy Savile"

Nothing you posted there excuses such heinous events and suffering when it can be prevented.
Either God is not all-powerful and is thus powerless to prevent such attrocities
Or God is powerful enough but is not all-loving, totally indifferent to it, just couldn't care less

Or of course there just isn't any such God at all !

I answered that question twice already but you ignored the answer both times.

Everything has its male and female properties. Without suffering, there can be no bliss, because one is just the inverse of the other. If God were not to experience an experience then the experience would not exist, and neither would its equal and opposite. Do you think that negating an entire range of expression from existence is wise?

God is simultaneously the sinner and the victim and the judge. Why do you think Jesus was condemned to hell for all the sins of mankind? Yet Jesus was condemned and ascended from hell to heaven. So in the end - all the suffering, it is not the final meaning of life, but there is something above it.

 

[n2thelight]

Were your statement true, it would mean God is not omniscient. Your statement does not remotely follow what the Bible says.

For Him to know is not free will meaning He created some people just to kill them , when His wish is for all to come to Him , does that make any sense

I'll go even a lil more , He didn't know satan would sin either

What kind of God do you serve that would create His children to kill them ?

 

[Adam]

For Him to know is not free will meaning He created some people just to kill them , when His wish is for all to come to Him , does that make any sense

I'll go even a lil more , He didn't know satan would sin either

What kind of God do you serve that would create His children to kill them ?

Luke 22
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

God definitely knows people will sin or else this prophesy and others like it would not be possible, and neither would God be God due to lacking omniscience. This is why there are serious flaws with the modern Christian understanding of the Bible.

Pain, sin, death, MUST result in reincarnation (which is supported scripturally), and not eternal damnation, otherwise, it is as you said, for the majority of people, existence would be pointless, having been created just to be damned. However, if a temporary decline just leads to a greater ultimate good, then all pain and sin are justified in the end by God's righteousness.

John 9:2
And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?

 

[Jim B]

For Him to know is not free will meaning He created some people just to kill them , when His wish is for all to come to Him , does that make any sense

I'll go even a lil more , He didn't know satan would sin either

What kind of God do you serve that would create His children to kill them ?

God created His children to have free will to choose either His way or their own way. Adam and Eve are the original example of people who, instead of choosing God's gift of life, chose their own path.

 

[Lapidem]

Everything has its male and female properties. Without suffering, there can be no bliss, because one is just the inverse of the other. If God were not to experience an experience then the experience would not exist, and neither would its equal and opposite. Do you think that negating an entire range of expression from existence is wise?

It's really quite simple. If in order to give you a happy moment in life (say your marriage) there must be an equal and opposite horrific event in the world, say the raping of a 5yr old girl by a paedophile then do you think your marriage is justified? Are you happy to have your happy moment at the expense of an innocent child being raped?

I concede that such happiness is false and an illusion. One can not have goodness if it requires equal and opposite badness. The price is too dear. Thus the way forward, as always is to achieve balance in the universe. Instead of extremes of good and bad, right and wrong, it should all be neutral. It might seem boring, but it's the moral way.

It's actually something fundamentally wrong with Christian mind-think. You're brainwashed/conditioned to think in terms of eternal good in heaven and eternal suffering in hell. Your ideology is supposed to be about love and kindness but how can anyone who genuinely has any degree of love in them tolerate the notion of a hell where people are genuinely consigned to eternal torture? Truly I say to you there is no love in any of you that tolerate this scenario and even relish seeing people thrown into hell. Christians do not know what love its. They are pious indoctrinated individuals who are so blinkered by their programing that thy can't see the utter hypocrisy of their ideology.

I find the whole concept of heaven and hell utterly repugnant, as should all deceent people.

For heaven to exist, hell must also exist. Hence the price of heaven is too dear just as the price of some transient piece of happiness is too dear if it comes at the cost of a 5yr old being sexually raped by a predator. Where is your head at?

Were God and the Devil to really exist the universe would be better off without both for one cannot exist without the other. What the universe needs is neutral balance not good and evil, right and wrong.

I despair that false religion has so badly indoctrinated so many people to the extent they can not see the ridiculousness and horror of the ideology they participate in. They're like frightened little children who far from being appalled at the existence of Nazi gas extermination chambers are just gleefully happy they escaped them and bugger the poor sods that did end up in them.

Where our heads should be is being furious at the existence of such evil and thus furious at the existence of the good which is its opposite and thus necessitates the manifestation of that evil.

 

[Lapidem]

For Him to know is not free will meaning He created some people just to kill them , when His wish is for all to come to Him , does that make any sense

I'll go even a lil more , He didn't know satan would sin either

If he didn't know something then by definition he is NOT Omniscient. And I agree with that. However the Christian doctrine says he IS Omniscient. Hence there is a problem.

 

[Adam]

Am I furious that I exist? No. Why should I be? Am I furious that life contains experiences? No. Why should I be?

Neither do I believe in eternal torture. I believe this is a false doctrine invented by the church to pressure people to obey.

Luke 3:6
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

If all you had is bliss without anything else, your existence would be fake - a prison. One you would end up desperately wanting to escape from. Is this the ultimate reality? Lotus-Eater Machine - TV Tropes

 

[Gottservant]

I keep saying it, you might want to listen: there is a choice, between free and spiritual will.

Being a sinner, you can't understand what you are being given a choice for, until you decide to change your mind.

It's not going to happen sooner, than you confessing your sin to Christ (and using that choice, to do good).

 

[Lapidem]

If all you had is bliss without anything else, your existence would be fake - a prison. One you would end up desperately wanting to escape from. Is this the ultimate reality? Lotus-Eater Machine - TV Tropes

Any existence would end up being a prison that you would want to escape from. What you would want is the power and ability to change existence to your will. If there exists a God then this is where he is at. He has the power. We do not. Such power is denied us. The secret knowledge is denied us. God forbade us to partake of that knowledge. He wants to be the master, the dictator, the boss. He rules at our expense.

 

[Lapidem]

I keep saying it, you might want to listen: there is a choice, between free and spiritual will.

Being a sinner, you can't understand what you are being given a choice for, until you decide to change your mind.

It's not going to happen sooner, than you confessing your sin to Christ (and using that choice, to do good).

Sin is a false concept peddled by the Church. It's the key psychological trick use to get people to voluntarily place themselves in a position vulnerability and need so that the Church can offer the solution. The universe has no concept of right or wrong. God has engaged in all manner of actions that humans would deem wicked, evil and wrong. He has done whatever he wanted to do. He has killed men, women and children at will. He has killed unborn children. He has engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Church is a despotic organisation peddling lies and preying on vulnerable people using psychological warfare to bludgeon people into conformity. I'm so glad I woke up to it and escaped.