An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

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Lapidem

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That would depend on who was in control.....but who ever it would reflect their character.

Hmmm. So if we're forced to make a decision between a God created Heaven and God created Hell with no other options, what does that say about the character of God !!


Grailhunter" said:
Judaism is a religion of laws....were as Christianity is a way thinking that involves faith in the Son of God. We can choose to be good and do good or we can chose to be bad and evil.

Charles Manson considered religion and law evil because he thought it was a form of control. He believed he had the right to murder and invoke terror.

There's absolutely no doubt imo that mainstream religion (as expressed by Churches etc) IS very much a system of control. All religions tend to utilise well known psychological techniques to either entrance humans or make them conform to a set of behaviours. Obv some religions are far more guilty of this than others.

As for good and bad/evil. Do you think the universe we inhabit cares about good or evil?
Do you think those concepts actually exist for anything except human emotion?

When a star goes supernova and destroys everything in a light year is that evil? It could mean billions of lifeforms on a nearby planeet are wiped out. Is that actually evil? Or is it simply an integral part of this universe?

Most of creation on just this planet, is created and designed such that in order to survive it must kill other life forms and devour them or use them. Is that evil? If so why did God create them that way? There are some creatures that are absolutely horrific in the way they kill their prey. Brutal. How can that be evil if there exists an all-loving God that created them that way?

It doesn't make sense, it doesn't add up, it doesn't stand up to any rational examination. It never has.

In an infinite universe, particularly this one, there can not be good and bad, there is just the normal course of nature, as it was designed.

Humans will always kill other humans for various reasons. It is a part of nature just like every other living thing. To deny that we are a part of nature is to deny who and what we are. We are born from nature and will return to nature. Nature is fallible. It creates inferior life forms and just keeps trying. There is no good or bad. The universe, by its very design, is unforgiving and brutal and unfair, full of events that humans might refer to as bad or wicked or evil. It is what it is.

What we have had since time immemorial is numerous life forms wanting to rule many other life forms in order to shape the universe to their own desires. This will never change.
 

Grailhunter

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Hmmm. So if we're forced to make a decision between a God created Heaven and God created Hell with no other options, what does that say about the character of God !!
It says He is a fair and just God.
And just for the record, I did not say God created Hell.
And I did not say there was only two possible destinations.

There's absolutely no doubt imo that mainstream religion (as expressed by Churches etc) IS very much a system of control. All religions tend to utilise well known psychological techniques to either entrance humans or make them conform to a set of behaviours. Obv some religions are far more guilty of this than others.
So you are looking at it from the perspective of Charles Manson. I am good at what I do.

As for good and bad/evil. Do you think the universe we inhabit cares about good or evil?
Do you think those concepts actually exist for anything except human emotion?

The universe does not have a collective thought.
The roots and thread of good and evil run deep in the physical and spiritual.

When a star goes supernova and destroys everything in a light year is that evil? It could mean billions of lifeforms on a nearby planeet are wiped out. Is that actually evil? Or is it simply an integral part of this universe?

Again the universe does not have a collective thought and thereby no conscience.

Most of creation on just this planet, is created and designed such that in order to survive it must kill other life forms and devour them or use them. Is that evil? If so why did God create them that way? There are some creatures that are absolutely horrific in the way they kill their prey. Brutal. How can that be evil if there exists an all-loving God that created them that way?

Issues with reality?


In an infinite universe, particularly this one, there can not be good and bad, there is just the normal course of nature, as it was designed.

I disagree. Probably your issues stem from not understanding what is good and what is bad. Humans are not in harmony with nature, they have a tendency to effect nature. Nature is neither good or bad.

Humans will always kill other humans for various reasons. It is a part of nature just like every other living thing. To deny that we are a part of nature is to deny who and what we are. We are born from nature and will return to nature. Nature is fallible. It creates inferior life forms and just keeps trying. There is no good or bad. The universe, by its very design, is unforgiving and brutal and unfair, full of events that humans might refer to as bad or wicked or evil. It is what it is.

This sounds worrisome.....this encompasses the whole sociopath mindset. You probably need to get some help.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Your final statement there is the one that is in error, and please could you desist referring to "someone" knowing what option would be chosen. We are not talking about "someone" in this thread, we are talking about an omniscient God which is very different. An Omniscient God is incapable of being wrong. If he says something will happen then it will happen simple as.
My final statement was not in error and no, I can’t desist - it doesn’t matter if I say someone or if I say God - if someone (or even God) knows what choice someone will make, it does not mean they weren’t given a choice.

I put a plate in front of you with a tuna fish sandwich on it and another plate in front of you with a salad on it. I tell you that you can have whichever plate you want. Whether I knew what you would choose or didn’t know what you would choose, you still had a choice and were given a choice.
You are asserting that if someone (or even God) knew which you would pick, it means you were not given a choice. Its not so.
You have some strange rule in your head that if someone (or even God) knows what you will choose before you choose it, that means you weren’t given a choice and didn’t choose it. you want everyone to agree with you that it’s so and they can’t.
 

Lapidem

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It says He is a fair and just God.
And just for the record, I did not say God created Hell.
And I did not say there was only two possible destinations.

By all means tell us who created Hell and if it's not God then why does the Bible state he created everything

John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.​


And also do tell what other destinations there are, cheers.


Grailhunter said:
So you are looking at it from the perspective of Charles Manson. I am good at what I do.

Nope, just rationally explaining how the universe doesn't know the concepts of good and evil, and that they are merely human concepts.


Grailhunter said:
The universe does not have a collective thought.

Really? Can you prove this? Can you prove that what underpins the entire universe doesn't have a consciousness?


Grailhunter said:
The roots and thread of good and evil run deep in the physical and spiritual.

As stated, these are merely human concepts. The universe doesn't care about human concepts and whether you like ir or accept it or not, you ARE part of this universe, part of nature. You can invent whatever concepts you like, love, hate, sadness. The universe remains utterly impartial and neutral.


Grailhunter said:
Again the universe does not have a collective thought and thereby no conscience.

Again, prove it


Grailhunter said:
I disagree. Probably your issues stem from not understanding what is good and what is bad. Humans are not in harmony with nature, they have a tendency to effect nature. Nature is neither good or bad.

Every living form affects nature. Every living thing consumes energy in one form or another. Every living thing is a transformer of energy, taking forms of energy in, transforming that energy into what their individual forms require. Everything therefore affects nature. Human are no different to any other form in this respect. Humans just happen to be a form of life that is prolific and which have the capacity to impact nature more than some other forms. But then insects are even more prolific and populous than humans and have a remarkable impact on nature. Take away the bees and nature changes very dramatically indeed !

Grailhunter said:
This sounds worrisome.....this encompasses the whole sociopath mindset. You probably need to get some help.

And you were doing so well. Don't let yourself down by resorting to cheap insults.
 

Lapidem

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My final statement was not in error and no, I can’t desist - it doesn’t matter if I say someone or if I say God - if someone (or even God) knows what choice someone will make, it does not mean they weren’t given a choice.

I put a plate in front of you with a tuna fish sandwich on it and another plate in front of you with a salad on it. I tell you that you can have whichever plate you want. Whether I knew what you would choose or didn’t know what you would choose, you still had a choice and were given a choice.
You are asserting that if someone (or even God) knew which you would pick, it means you were not given a choice. Its not so.
You have some strange rule in your head that if someone (or even God) knows what you will choose before you choose it, that means you weren’t given a choice and didn’t choose it. you want everyone to agree with you that it’s so and they can’t.
There is no strange rule.

You simply can't understand clear and basic logic. You're in denial, presumably because if you accept the simple logic it challenges your belief system. I'm sorry about that but I can't help what the logic plainly shows.

It very much does matter who it is that knows the outcome of a choice before it happens because anyone except an infallible God might have made a mistake.

So for example a human, who has placed a bet on the outcome of a boxing fight, knowing that the outcome will be a knockout in the 2nd round, has done so because he's agreed with one of the boxers to rig the fight and take a dive in that 2nd round. However he might be mistaken. The boxer might not take a dive after all, or he might get knocked out in the first round and so on.

We can't consider "someone". We MUST consider only one specific entity and that is the infallible perfect omniscient God.

When such a God says that you will eat the Tuna sandwich then there can be absolutely no possibility that you will eat the salad. This is extremely simple concrete logic. If you're going to keep ignoring it then the discussion is effectively over.

If God knows you're going to eat Tuna, the YOU ARE going to eat Tuna because he is infallible, never wrong.

You're constant attempts to keep saying there is choice is plainly silly and denial. It's also insulting to God because you're effectively suggesting he might be wrong.

If the choice is 100% known by an infallible God before it happens then that choice is fixed at that point. The only possible outcome is that choice. No other choice can possibly be made. The event is therefore predetermined.

The human making the choice might still think they are making a free choice. Just as they might think rolling dice is a random thing when it clearly is not. The human therefore can be fooled into believing they have choice. The reality is they don't if all choices but one are impossible. What they have is the illusion of choice.
 

MatthewG

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Hmmm difficult questions to face up to aren't they. Understand if you're not ready yet. May the spark of inquisition be lit though. Good day brother.
They’re not difficult questions it just always boils down to faith, when dealing with the things about God: along with the context of the Bible itself in its whole of what is trying to be conveyed which is God dealing with mankind, mainly the Jewish who were first then Gentiles who came later in which because of Jesus and his death, burial, and resurrection allows all to be able to come into relationship with God now today.

Or choose not to.
 

Grailhunter

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By all means tell us who created Hell and if it's not God then why does the Bible state he created everything

John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.​


And also do tell what other destinations there are, cheers.

Do you think I do not know those scriptures.....As Tweety bird said, He don't know me real well.

These scriptures are referring to the initial creation.....but also you have to be careful about the all encompassing statements in the scriptures....
Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.

Most of the details about Sheol and Hell and Heaven are outside the canon Bible.

Really? Can you prove this? Can you prove that what underpins the entire universe doesn't have a consciousness?

Don't have to. It does not talk to me....does it talk to you?


And you were doing so well. Don't let yourself down by resorting to cheap insults.

Not an insult, God bless you, but you need help.
 

Lapidem

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They’re not difficult questions it just always boils down to faith, when dealing with the things about God: along with the context of the Bible itself in its whole of what is trying to be conveyed which is God dealing with mankind, mainly the Jewish who were first then Gentiles who came later in which because of Jesus and his death, burial, and resurrection allows all to be able to come into relationship with God now today.

Or choose not to.

Faith should never be an excuse for pushing aside rational thought, reasoning and evidential inquiry. I recommend this book which explains why faith is a very dangerous thing:


The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason​

h ttps://www.amazon.co.uk/End-Faith-Religion-Terror-Future/dp/0743268091

End-Of-Faith.png


The questions I put are difficult I think and you should never feel guilty or worried about facing them, even if all you conclude is that you don't currently understand the issues or can't resolve the answers with your belief system.
 
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Lapidem

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Most of the details about Sheol and Hell and Heaven are outside the canon Bible.

Ah, like the Gospels of Judas, Thomas, Peter and Mary ? ! Hmmmm


Grailhunter said:
Don't have to. It does not talk to me....does it talk to you?

Well it was you that asserted that the universe has no consciousness so it behoves you to prove that statement. Evidently you can't do so. I guess it was nothing more than opinion then. Would the universe have to physically talk to you to have a consciousness ? Whre are you pulling this restrictive boundary from? Does God have to physically talk to people? I've never met any sane person that claims to have physically heard God speak, directly. Plenty of misguided people saying God spoke through X, Y and Z. Always seemed kinda odd that an all-powerful God would need to speak through someone else. Just as it's odd that God couldn't write or create scriptures himself and needed humans to do it. Especially knowing that paper, parchement, vellum etc are highly perishable materials. Not very clever really. Would have been better to etch scriptures into the side of a mountain surely ?!


Grailhunter said:
Not an insult, God bless you, but you need help.

Haha. Speck, log . . .
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss
I disagree with this reasoning. If God knows that option A will be chosen before he tells someone not to do something, such as, God telling Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, and God knows before he tells Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he will eat from the tree, then isn't God telling Adam to obey something which is impossible for him to obey, when he tells Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree? God doesn't tell us to obey commands, that's impossible for us to obey, right, but the scriptures show obedience is something God has always required from creation, doesn't it? So when God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, Adam had to be capable of obeying God when he said not to eat from the forbidden tree, right? But if God knew before he created Adam or before he told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree that he would eat from the forbidden tree then didn't God choose for Adam? What I mean is, if God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree before he told him not to eat from the forbidden tree then isn't it true that Adam could only choose the path that God saw before he told Adam not to eat from the forbidden tree? Doesn't that mean that Adam only had the ability to make the choice of being disobedient because that's what God saw Adam do before he told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree? Don't you agree, that if God saw Adam eat from the forbidden tree before he told Adam not to eat from the forbidden tree, that Adam had no possibility of choosing to obey God when God told him not to eat from the forbidden tree? If Adam had the ability to be obedient to God concerning this command wouldn't that mean Adam had the ability to prove God wrong? But no one has the ability to prove God wrong, right? If someone did have the ability to prove God wrong, wouldn't that mean God wouldn't be infallible? But the scriptures show us that God is infallible.
I disagree that God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree before he told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree. People saying that God did know that Adam would eat from the forbidden tree before God told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, makes God the source of sin and death. Basically because people who reason this way that God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree means that God knowingly created a person who he knew would be Satan the Devil and therefore putting everything in motion that this person who would be Satan the Devil would do. God didn't have to create a person who he knew would be Satan the Devil before he created that person. I just don't think that knowing what's going to happen every second of everyday is what is the definition of omniscient. I agree that God can do that but I don't think that he does do that.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You're constant attempts to keep saying there is choice is plainly silly and denial. It's also insulting to God because you're effectively suggesting he might be wrong.
Once again, you have a choice between two things. Just because someone (or even God) knows which you will choose, does not mean you did not choose. Just because someone (or even God) knows which plate you will choose before you choose it does not mean you weren’t given the choice between the sandwich and the salad.

Just because God knows what someone will do does not mean He forced the person to do it. It just means He knew what they would do or choose.

You say I’m being silly and am in denial because I won’t (can’t) agree with you that God knowing what I will do means God forcing me to do what I do.

Now, apparently, I’ve also insulted God since I won’t agree with you that God forces every choice or decision any person ever makes. Even if I choose a salad rather than a sandwich, it’s because God forced me to eat the salad and would not allow me the sandwich.
 

Lapidem

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If God knows that option A will be chosen before he tells someone not to do something, such as, God telling Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, and God knows before he tells Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he will eat from the tree, then isn't God telling Adam to obey something which is impossible for him to obey, when he tells Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree?

Yep you nailed the truth right there. God set up everything. The Garden of Eden, he put the tree there, purposely, deiberately and he commanded Adam not to eat from it knowing completely that he would. There's something very sick about that entire setup. It really should be self-evident to anyone capable of rational thought.


I disagree that God knew Adam would eat from the forbidden tree before he told Adam to not eat from the forbidden tree.

Well then you're claiming that God is not all-knowing, not Omniscient. That surely doesn't sit well with the Christian doctrine !!!


I just don't think that knowing what's going to happen every second of everyday is what is the definition of omniscient. I agree that God can do that but I don't think that he does do that.

I'm afraid Omniscience very much DOES mean that God should / must know absolutely everything. Anything else simply exposes fallibility and if you have fallibility then pretty soon the entire foundation and structure of religion just falls down like a house of cards.

But thank you for highlighting that the Biblical story makes absolutely no logical sense at all. Adam had no choice. He was predestined to eat from the tree. He was created that way by God. The tree was created by God. The environment was created by God. Everything was predetermined. God really must be an extremely sad and bored individual !
 

Grailhunter

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Well it was you that asserted that the universe has no consciousness so it behoves you to prove that statement. Evidently you can't do so. I guess it was nothing more than opinion then. Would the universe have to physically talk to you to have a consciousness ? Whre are you pulling this restrictive boundary from? Does God have to physically talk to people? I've never met any sane person that claims to have physically heard God speak, directly. Plenty of misguided people saying God spoke through X, Y and Z. Always seemed kinda odd that an all-powerful God would need to speak through someone else. Just as it's odd that God couldn't write or create scriptures himself and needed humans to do it. Especially knowing that paper, parchement, vellum etc are highly perishable materials. Not very clever really. Would have been better to etch scriptures into the side of a mountain surely ?!

You can not prove something that does not exist.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Yep you nailed the truth right there. God set up everything. The Garden of Eden, he put the tree there, purposely, deiberately and he commanded Adam not to eat from it knowing completely that he would. There's something very sick about that entire setup. It really should be self-evident to anyone capable of rational thought.




Well then you're claiming that God is not all-knowing, not Omniscient. That surely doesn't sit well with the Christian doctrine !!!




I'm afraid Omniscience very much DOES mean that God should / must know absolutely everything. Anything else simply exposes fallibility and if you have fallibility then pretty soon the entire foundation and structure of religion just falls down like a house of cards.

But thank you for highlighting that the Biblical story makes absolutely no logical sense at all. Adam had no choice. He was predestined to eat from the tree. He was created that way by God. The tree was created by God. The environment was created by God. Everything was predetermined. God really must be an extremely sad and bored individual !

I literally did not know I was speaking with an atheist. I thought you must be some variation of a Calvinist because i saw no soft edges of humility and no love.
I never know which section of the forum I’m in. I’m a dunce, lol.

I guess (by examining and living with my own self over these 17 years) that there isn’t much to do with a man who is still very angry at God. If it took me so long to fully set down that anger and I surely don’t expect anyone else to conquer that in a day.
 

ScottA

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Ok I've heard this "time" excuse before. Whether God sits inside or outside time (or both) really doesn't matter here. If he sits outside time and can see every choice that every person is making then the reality surely is that everything has already happened. Everything from the start of time to the end of time. God sees and watches it like watching a movie. He can rewind or fast forward at will and see any part of it.

If this is the case then it means the future (or what we think of as the future) has already happened. Which explains how/why God is Omniscient. Past, Present and future to us , in our perspective are real concepts but to God they don't exist. Everything has already happened, he sees it all.

This being the case, everything must be predetermined as it's all already happened. We are merely viewing a snap shot of the whole movie. Witnessing our little bit of the immensity of time though the bodies we are trapped in. So again, there is no free will here.

God set everything up. The world, humans, our "predicaments", putting us in a completely hopeless position and then offers us the solution provided we kneel down and worship him. This is not love. It's a pretty sick scenario imo.
You may have heard it before, but you are not listening, not actually hearing. I said every person does not make a decision within time, but before time. Which makes this world of unfolding would-be events simply each person getting the news of their decision (after the fact) and walking it out with the opportunity to think it through and even have a second chance (by the grace of God).

As I said, what you have observed...is not the case. Nor is it a matter of predestination, as we all have already made our own decision before time began. As for being hopeless, that too is your own reality if you again choose to refuse the second chance and change your mind.

As for love, He made us, gave us a chance to love that He did, and gives us a second chance even after we don't. If you still do not love Him in return--it is your lack of love, not His.

As for excuses--now you have none, for I have told you the truth.
 

Lapidem

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You may have heard it before, but you are not listening, not actually hearing. I said every person does not make a decision within time, but before time. Which makes this world of unfolding would-be events simply each person getting the news of their decision (after the fact) and walking it out with the opportunity to think it through and even have a second chance (by the grace of God).

That's an interesting life philosophy, may I ask what sect, doctrine it stems from?

So if I understand you here, you believe that you are somehow existing some place other than "here" which is outside of time and you're making all your life decisions in that place, and then you're experiencing the results of those decisions here in the Earthly world?
Or are you more leaning towards the situation that I think another poster mentioned where they suggested that before we are born, we get to decide what life we want to experience and then our minds are wiped during birth so we don't remember making that choice?


ScottA said:
As I said, what you have observed...is not the case. Nor is it a matter of predestination, as we all have already made our own decision before time began. As for being hopeless, that too is your own reality if you again choose to refuse the second chance and change your mind.

Are you saying that what we see and witness in our lives here on Earth is not actually real ? Or is this leaning towards a scenario where you believe we've already lived, and then died, and then been given a second chance and that this existence here on Earth IS that second chance?

ScottA said:
As for love, He made us, gave us a chance to love that He did, and gives us a second chance even after we don't. If you still do not love Him in return--it is your lack of love, not His.

If any creator purposefully made us, then that creator is responsible for what was created. The created being can only function accoding to how it was built/designed/created. If the created being does not love, then it's because it was created that way. If the created being is given total freedom to live and be then the creator must surely accept whatever choices the created beings make. Punishing them for not doing what he wants them to do would be rather churlish and sadistic.
 

Lapidem

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I literally did not know I was speaking with an atheist. I thought you must be some variation of a Calvinist because i saw no soft edges of humility and no love. I never know which section of the forum I’m in. I’m a dunce, lol.
Atheist? Interesting judgement.

I may in fact believe in a God, or something, either universal or cosmic that underpins life. It just may not be the same God that you believe in. I may also read and interpret the Bible vastly different to how you do, I may also read the Quran and Gita. As for soft edges, this was a thread about simple logic. If A then B or not B. Emotion and feelings really don't have much relevance there though I noted the attempts by some to hijack the thread to do a bit of religious witnessing. Unavoidable here I guess.

stunnedbygrace said:
I guess (by examining and living with my own self over these 17 years) that there isn’t much to do with a man who is still very angry at God. If it took me so long to fully set down that anger and I surely don’t expect anyone else to conquer that in a day.[/quotee]

You think I'm angry at God? Which God? Whose God? Which God do you think I believe in?