An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,842
2,878
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Why do you assume the test is for God to find out something?
yeah, God is not finding out something He does not know. The test is ours to pass. We must all overcome the world by our faith, and not be overcome by the world or we are not saved.

1 John 5:4
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

If born of God, then truly you have overcome the world by your faith.
It is a test of knowing Him, who is your trust in.

  1. Revelation 2:7
    “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’
    Revelation 2:11
  2. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm afraid yes you do. You're the one asserting that even if an Omniscient God knows/says that you will choose option A, that you can still choose option B freely. You need to explain how that is possible or else restate your position, or failing that bow out of the discussion.
I’m not asserting that. I literally just said the opposite of that. I just,in my previous post, said if God prophecies A, then A is exactly what will happen. I literally JUST NOW said it. So you are saying I’m asserting something I most clearly and definitely did not (ever) assert. In fact, any English speaker in here could read our conversation and affirm the truth that I did not say that at all. I think I saw a man named… Barney? assert that in here but I absolutely never did.
If I put dry food down for my dog beside canned food, I absolutely know that, without fail, he will choose the canned food. 100% of the time, that’s what he will do. To then say, well, since you knew which he would eat, he had no choice and you did not give him a choice, would be insane. The two bowls side by side are proof that I gave him a choice.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
It is not a sect belief, a doctrine, or philosophy, nor a mere belief of mine, but the truth from God.

No, we are not "making" life decisions as it were, for time is a mere illusion. The easiest way to understand it is as it is written: that all this world and the would-be chronology occurred before the world was, making this all just the revealing of it, like the reading of news. The "here" of this "Earthly world" is not so much a place, but rather an aside within the mind of God.

What is real is what is of God, and therefore this experience we have in this would be image created by God for revealing what "is" in baby steps, is indeed real. But it is real like a picture ("image") in and of itself is real, but also not real as it may be perceived to be, as it is a mere image of what is actually real.

As for "leaning", or things before or after...those are all time in nature and therefore not the case. Which is not wrong for you to speak of in those terms--even I am doing so, as has God also. That is the method and language of revelation. But I am now explaining it and must call it wrong according to actual reality which is timeless. So, to answer your question...the things of this world and what seemingly exists on a timeline when it actually does not--they are actually happening in real time in our way of thinking, but actually without time. A good way to understand it is to consider Light cast through a prism. The light was not off and now on, but was and is Light (if you have read the scriptures this Light has a name). But back to the prism: there is no chronology to the separations of the light, but you would think there was if you were to walk through them over a would-be lifetime. That is what God has done. That is what this is: Timeless revelation over would-be time.

So, no, it is not exactly as you said; but yes, this is us dead in stasis--which makes our would-be (appearing) second chance, our only chance.

Your logic is not wrong, but your assumption and conclusion is.

Yes, the fallen nature of mankind was indeed "purposefully made." Imagine therefore that all things had no definition, no contrast, no means of interaction, nor even a way of determining any difference between good and evil. Imagine sitting alone and blind and deaf, without touch, smell or taste...just a mind to think. Within a being of One--boring, yes, but no problem. But with more than one you would need or perhaps want all of those. Hence, all that is good and light, but also all that is bad and dark or evil.

Not that you should or could be expected to also imagine a solution to such a cosmic problem...but if you can imagine the benefits and the problems that might ensue, you might also imagine the purpose for what we are now in the midst of--which is, God eliminating darkness and evil in the best, most lovable way possible--that is: by choice.

Thus, if one prefers darkness and evil, or all that is good--that is what they are going to get...for eternity. God can do that, and He is, and it is good, very good.

Thank you for your continued thoughts and explanations.

You mention a "being of One" then the possibility of "more than One". How can there be more than One if that One if the creator/master of all thing? The "other" would have to be created by the One in the first place. And if the "other" was dar or evil then that would have been by the design of the One. Hence as is so often the case, things don't add up. God wouldn't need to do all this massive "Life stuff" at all if he didn't want darkness and evil. He just needed not to will it into existence in the first place. There can not exist a "Cosmic problem" at all if the One is as described by the Christian doctrine. I don't believe in the defacto Christian God so I'm cool with this. However once we start accepting God as NOT being all-powerful, or all-knowing or all-loving then we run into issues. We then start having to judge who to worship (if anyone) based on how they act, how they behave and especially how they interact (or not) with humans. Should I worship someone like Hitler? Should I worship any entity who kills humans, engages in genocide, ethnic cleansing and is indifferent to human suffering or who is powerless to help humans?
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
I’m not asserting that. I literally just said the opposite of that. I just,in my previous post, said if God prophecies A, then A is exactly what will happen. I literally JUST NOW said it. So you are saying I’m asserting something I most clearly and definitely did not (ever) assert.

You've been maintaining throughout that even if an Omniscient God knows/says what choice a person will make, that the person still has a free choice. Your quotes:

"Its not logical to say if someone knows a choice I will make before I make it, it therefore means I made no choice."

"knowing what someones choice will be does not mean they didn’t make a choice"

"It makes no sense to me to say if God knows what choice someone will choose to make it necessarily means they did not make a choice."


I get that you can't get your head around the simple logic here but that doesn't alter the facts.

If God knows what option will definitely unquestionably be taken then it MUST BE THE CASE that none of the other options can possibly be taken. For God cannot be wrong. If you are going to persist in saying the person still has a free choice then you need to explain how God can be wrong.


stunnedbygrace said:
If I put dry food down for my dog beside canned food, I absolutely know that, without fail, he will choose the canned food. 100% of the time, that’s what he will do. To then say, well, since you knew which he would eat, he had no choice and you did not give him a choice, would be insane. The two bowls side by side are proof that I gave him a choice.

Here's the continuing problem with you continuing to talk about "someone". Any "someone" including you, COULD be wrong. You think you're going to be 100% right in guessing what your dog does, but the truth is you don't know absolutely. Anything could happen. You are not God. You are fallible. Therefore whatever YOU think, the choice for the dog remains a free one.

With an Omniscient God it's VERY different. He cannot be wrong. He doesn't make mistakes. Therefore what he knows/says will happen IS GOING TO HAPPEN. No ifs, no buts. If that's the case then all other choice options are not options or possibilities at all. They are illusions. There MUST be factors in play, which God knows about and sees and understands, which enable him to know what choice you will make. Those factors remove your free-will. You can do nothing but choose the way God knows you will however it looks and feels to you.

Since we're largely going in circles with this, to the extent of a childish "yes it is" "no it isn't" debacle there's no value in further engagement. You need to get your head around what it means to have an Omniscient God, not "someone" but an Omniscient God and what that therefore means about what is going on in the universe and how everything is shaped.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't believe in psychics or magic or Harry Potter nonsense. No rational person should. Everything happens according to universal laws, physics, chemistry etc. That's the way the universe is and if there exists a Christian God, that's how he designed it. To KNOW something requires information. Data. If God knows the future it's because he has that information, that data. If we humans don't know the future it's because we don't have that information, we don't have access to it. Once you start invoking the "Divine Default" you've left the path of logic and wisdom. The "Divine Default" being, you've reached the point where you can't rationally respond to an issue
I don’t believe in human psychics either. But God certainly can see the future, and pronounce it hundreds or thousands of years in advance, so God is psychic in that way. Of course, you don’t believe the Bible and think if there IS a God, the Bible misrepresents Him so…

As to the rest of this, I don’t know what you mean by “divine default” so don’t know if I’ve invoked it. But I DO know I haven’t left the path of logic but rather you have.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
yeah, God is not finding out something He does not know. The test is ours to pass. We must all overcome the world by our faith, and not be overcome by the world or we are not saved.
But God surely knows before he even sets the test what the outcome will be. He created the humans and designed them with specific traits and limitations. He knows what each person is going to do in life. Who will pass the test and who won't. If he knows then it's patently predetermined for God can not be wrong. The more you think all this through the more the whole house of cards charade comes tumbling down. God cannot be Omniscient if we have free-will. So either he's a very sad and bored entity deluding himself, or, he's not Omniscient, and very likely not omni-benevolent, in which case we're all trapped and prisoners of a wrathful, brutal entity whom we can't escape or of course we've misunderstood totally the true nature of God due to the lies peddled by religious doctrine!
 
Last edited:

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
I don’t believe in human psychics either. But God certainly can see the future, and pronounce it hundreds or thousands of years in advance, so God is psychic in that way.
God is not psychic. That's just your assumption born out of the fact you don't agree with or understand cause and effect. You think a pair of dice are random like most people. They seem that way to humans but not to God.

stunnedbygrace said:
As to the rest of this, I don’t know what you mean by “divine default” so don’t know if I’ve invoked it. But I DO know I haven’t left the path of logic but rather you have.

THE DIVINE DEFAULT

 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You've been maintaining throughout that even if an Omniscient God knows/says what choice a person will make, that the person still has a free choice. Your quotes:

"Its not logical to say if someone knows a choice I will make before I make it, it therefore means I made no choice."

"knowing what someones choice will be does not mean they didn’t make a choice"

"It makes no sense to me to say if God knows what choice someone will choose to make it necessarily means they did not make a choice."


I get that you can't get your head around the simple logic here but that doesn't alter the facts.

If God knows what option will definitely unquestionably be taken then it MUST BE THE CASE that none of the other options can possibly be taken. For God cannot be wrong. If you are going to persist in saying the person still has a free choice then you need to explain how God can be wrong.




Here's the continuing problem with you continuing to talk about "someone". Any "someone" including you, COULD be wrong. You think you're going to be 100% right in guessing what your dog does, but the truth is you don't know absolutely. Anything could happen. You are not God. You are fallible. Therefore whatever YOU think, the choice for the dog remains a free one.

With an Omniscient God it's VERY different. He cannot be wrong. He doesn't make mistakes. Therefore what he knows/says will happen IS GOING TO HAPPEN. No ifs, no buts. If that's the case then all other choice options are not options or possibilities at all. They are illusions. There MUST be factors in play, which God knows about and sees and understands, which enable him to know what choice you will make. Those factors remove your free-will. You can do nothing but choose the way God knows you will however it looks and feels to you.

Since we're largely going in circles with this, to the extent of a childish "yes it is" "no it isn't" debacle there's no value in further engagement. You need to get your head around what it means to have an Omniscient God, not "someone" but an Omniscient God and what that therefore means about what is going on in the universe and how everything is shaped.
Lol. It’s Romans 9 - Why does God then find fault? Aren’t people just doing what He makes them do? (My paraphrase.) So your argument went on even 2000 years ago. But as with this thread from the beginning, no discussion can be had because you cant get anyone to agree that men have zero choices in life, not even what they want for breakfast or who they marry. Because God already knew what they would decide to eat, it means He forced them to eat that thing and they had no choice on what to eat. And because God already knew who they were going to marry, it means they didn’t choose who to marry but rather that God forced them to marry the person they did.
Yet I’m the one who has left logic behind…
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God is not psychic. That's just your assumption born out of the fact you don't agree with or understand cause and effect. You think a pair of dice are random like most people. They seem that way to humans but not to God.
That’s kind of funny. I don’t understand cause and effect yet you’re the one who says God knowing every choice a man will ever make over the course of his life means the man has no choice on anything whatsoever, not even what kind of shoes he will buy and wear.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,816
25,468
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Christian God IMHO is all knowing and does not have to depend on our decisions for His will to be done as He has laid it out.
If He is omniscient, then He is more than capable of orchestrating how things will turn out regardless of our free will.
JM2C
 
  • Like
Reactions: stunnedbygrace

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,597
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you for your continued thoughts and explanations.

You mention a "being of One" then the possibility of "more than One". How can there be more than One if that One if the creator/master of all thing? The "other" would have to be created by the One in the first place. And if the "other" was dar or evil then that would have been by the design of the One. Hence as is so often the case, things don't add up. God wouldn't need to do all this massive "Life stuff" at all if he didn't want darkness and evil. He just needed not to will it into existence in the first place. There can not exist a "Cosmic problem" at all if the One is as described by the Christian doctrine. I don't believe in the defacto Christian God so I'm cool with this. However once we start accepting God as NOT being all-powerful, or all-knowing or all-loving then we run into issues. We then start having to judge who to worship (if anyone) based on how they act, how they behave and especially how they interact (or not) with humans. Should I worship someone like Hitler? Should I worship any entity who kills humans, engages in genocide, ethnic cleansing and is indifferent to human suffering or who is powerless to help humans?
Good question, but it doesn't serve to jump to conclusions.

Creating good and evil (intentionally by design) simply gives contrast and definition to all that is good, that [evil] might be eliminated and not be a problem. Certainly, it "adds up" that even if one of us planted a crop and divided out the bad fruit from the good--nothing evil or bad has occurred, but rather what is good. The same might also be said of God removing a sickness from a person, or even decay, that they might forever live without suffering. Also good.

But back to the "One" plus "One" idea. That is not exactly what I meant--I didn't elaborate. First things first. Now that you get the concept of adding...it is not multiplication. The addition rather is more of expansion of the One. The scriptures word it as "extending the pegs of [His] tent." Thus, when Jesus said, "I and the Father are One" He did not mean they are two. The same is true of all who are born [again] of the spirit of God, they become a part of the One. But even people refer to a group of people as sometimes being one body...so don't just narrow the concept down not to include the good things of individualism and relationships. The point rather is that the sum be greater than the parts, just as biblical marriage means the "two become one flesh." Which is not to be less, but more, not bad, not evil, but good and even better.

Extend also your horizon.

As for human suffering and indifference to humans, or being powerless--if you think any of that describes the One true God, you misunderstand. We can talk more about it, but remember, this is just a "created" "image."
 
Last edited:

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
Lol. It’s Romans 9 - Why does God then find fault? Aren’t people just doing what He makes them do? (My paraphrase.) So your argument went on even 2000 years ago. But as with this thread from the beginning, no discussion can be had because you cant get anyone to agree that men have zero choices in life, not even what they want for breakfast or who they marry. Because God already knew what they would decide to eat, it means He forced them to eat that thing and they had no choice on what to eat. And because God already knew who they were going to marry, it means they didn’t choose who to marry but rather that God forced them to marry the person they did.
Yet I’m the one who has left logic behind…

Yep that's all true. You still can't get your head around it sadly. It requires "big think" and lots of critical thinking. Everything happening in your body right now is a constant interplay of cause and effect. The way your heart is beating, the way you are breathing, the chemical reactions going on in your stomach, the resulting type of "hunger" you perceive. Nothing you can do about it. Everything in the universe is impacted by everything else. What you think is a breakfast choice is nothing of the sort. It's just the result of a gazillion factors that are all in play which include the state of your stomach, your sense of smell, your proximity to food, what you have in your cupboards which in turn was the result of gazillions of factors like how you were brought up, what you see on TV and hear on radio, what was available in your local supermarket and so on. As I keep saying, none of this is random. It's all cause and effect. It just appears like free choice to you because your mind is too small to understand those gazilions of factors just as mine is.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
The Christian God IMHO is all knowing and does not have to depend on our decisions for His will to be done as He has laid it out.
If He is omniscient, then He is more than capable of orchestrating how things will turn out regardless of our free will.
JM2C

Everything that happens can only happen by his will. Is that not the case?

That must therefore include what we foolishly think of as free-will. God must be having a good old chuckle at humans thinking they are choosing things. It's all Gods will manifesting and there's not a thing we can do about it. We are pawns on a chess board unable to escape captivity created by a bored listless entity who thinks its ok to put his created human beings into eternal torture or eternal pleasure at his will.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
Creating good and evil (intentionally by design) simply gives contrast and definition to all that is good, that it might be eliminated and not be a problem.

By definition there could not be anything that was not good unless and until good was created in the first place. The very creation of "good" creates with it "not good". You can not have good without evil, nor up without down, for the very existence of one defines the other.
Hence again it makes no sense for an all-knowing God to create good if he didn't simultaneously want "not good" or evil.

It's a bit like saying I don't want to cause ripples in a lake and then throwing a stone into the lake. Makes zero sense. If you don't want ripples, don't throw a stone. If you don't want evil, don't create good.


ScottA said:
The same might also be said of God removing a sickness from a person, or even decay, that they might forever live without suffering. Also good.

Nope that's just one more example of how the entire charade house of cards falls apart. If God doesn't want sickness or decay (at least in humans) then simply don't create that sickness and decay in the first place. It comes back to the rather despicable and insipid notion of a Pharmaceutical deliberately creating a deadly virus that horribly harms people and then stretches out its hand with a cure or vaccine. Such would be wicked. Furthermore this would be like some sick joke, where God tries to get humans to love and worship him by virtue of some miracle healing when in fact it was him that created the sickness in the first place.


ScottA" said:
Extend also your horizon.

As for human suffering and indifference to humans, or being powerless--if you think any of that describes the One true God, you misunderstand. We can talk more about it, but remember, this is just a "created" "image."

I don't think that, because I don't believe in or agree with the defacto definition / description of the "One true God" peddled by Christianity. I'm merely pointing out how implausible, impossible that entity is. People need to look elsewhere.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,816
25,468
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Everything that happens can only happen by his will. Is that not the case?

That must therefore include what we foolishly think of as free-will. God must be having a good old chuckle at humans thinking they are choosing things. It's all Gods will manifesting and there's not a thing we can do about it. We are pawns on a chess board unable to escape captivity created by a bored listless entity who thinks its ok to put his created human beings into eternal torture or eternal pleasure at his will.
"Everything that happens can only happen by his will. "

Yes, agreed! And, I believe that it was His will to give us "free will". Do you think He cannot work outside of our choices? Outside of time?
He uses the good and the bad choices of men for the good of His own people.
Remember, this is my opinion as is what you wrote, was yours.
So, are you saying that some who come to Jesus who are not "predestined to be saved" He will cast out?? Because my Jesus would never do that to anyone who reached out to Him in repentance and belief.
 

Lapidem

Active Member
Jan 30, 2021
653
66
28
DinglyDell
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United Kingdom
"Everything that happens can only happen by his will. "

Yes, agreed! And, I believe that it was His will to give us "free will". Do you think He cannot work outside of our choices? Outside of time?
There is only God's will. Nothing humans do can change God's will or plans.

We have not been given free will. We are just a construct designed in a specific way, presumably for his amusement. He must be very lonely and bored. We THINK we have free will, just like we think the rolling of a pair of dice is random. But we are simply fooled because we can't understand the complexities of the universe.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,597
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
By definition there could not be anything that was not good unless and until good was created in the first place. The very creation of "good" creates with it "not good". You can not have good without evil, nor up without down, for the very existence of one defines the other.
Hence again it makes no sense for an all-knowing God to create good if he didn't simultaneously want "not good" or evil.

It's a bit like saying I don't want to cause ripples in a lake and then throwing a stone into the lake. Makes zero sense. If you don't want ripples, don't throw a stone. If you don't want evil, don't create good.




Nope that's just one more example of how the entire charade house of cards falls apart. If God doesn't want sickness or decay (at least in humans) then simply don't create that sickness and decay in the first place. It comes back to the rather despicable and insipid notion of a Pharmaceutical deliberately creating a deadly virus that horribly harms people and then stretches out its hand with a cure or vaccine. Such would be wicked. Furthermore this would be like some sick joke, where God tries to get humans to love and worship him by virtue of some miracle healing when in fact it was him that created the sickness in the first place.




I don't think that, because I don't believe in or agree with the defacto definition / description of the "One true God" peddled by Christianity. I'm merely pointing out how implausible, impossible that entity is. People need to look elsewhere.
This is not a discussion. You made an incorrect assertion and I have been telling you what is true with all authority.

You, on the other hand are speculating with the logic of clay as to a Potter. I am not that Potter, but I have spoken for Him.

Take it or leave it, or ask questions, but do not purpose to know what you do not.