An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

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stunnedbygrace

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Atheist? Interesting judgement.

I may in fact believe in a God, or something, either universal or cosmic that underpins life. It just may not be the same God that you believe in. I may also read and interpret the Bible vastly different to how you do, I may also read the Quran and Gita. As for soft edges, this was a thread about simple logic. If A then B or not B. Emotion and feelings really don't have much relevance there though I noted the attempts by some to hijack the thread to do a bit of religious witnessing. Unavoidable here I guess.
Once again, you have not used logic. You have employed a logical fallacy. If deductive logic leads to an obvious fallacy and you insist the fallacy is not there, that’s not logic. It’s…cognitive dissonance.
If A: Someone (or even God) knows what I will choose and do, BEFORE I do it in time,
then B: this means I do not choose and am not given a choice in anything (not even what I will eat for breakfast), because if anyone (or even God) knows what I will do before I do it, this means they forced me to do what I chose and gave me no choice.

We can’t even get to step one of a useful conversation because you keep insisting if someone won’t accept your logical fallacy then they are making God to be a liar.

As for your last part, yes, you are quite angry at God. We've all been there.
 
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Scott Downey

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I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss
No one can come to Christ and believe in Him by faith unless God grants that they do.
This is on a personal, individual basis, and also explains all the crazyness of other faiths, as they were not granted to come to Christ and be saved. God's choice who will know Him, it is never the choice of a man.

John 6

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”


66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”


WHY had they come to believe in Christ, only due to God's granting them to believe, your faith is a gift, it is given to those God foreknows as His people. And that was determined by God before time began.

Further example
Romans 12

1 I beseech[a] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [b]reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Paul here reminds the people their faith in Christ came from God. But having such faith does not absolve them from making right choices does it. God holds all men regardless of faith or not accountable for the deeds they do in the body.
 

Scott Downey

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More proof of the same, a truth Christ rejoices in regarding this will of the Father
God hides Himself from some while revealing Himself to others. Christ will not allow anyone to know who He is unless HE will it so.
Again this is the choice of God which is good in His sight.
Christ then says men have desired to see and experience the kingdom of God, but they did not see that, because it was not the will of God.
Unless Christ will for you to know God, you will never find Him or know who Christ is, meaning you will never believe and be saved unless He will it so. Personal and individual. His will be done, not our will.

Luke 10

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit​

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.
 

Scott Downey

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We are born again according to his mercy and not of ourselves, of our wills.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

We do not receive Christ and then God makes us born of Himself, He makes us born again first then we believe and enter the kingdom.
Unless a man be born again, he cannot see, as in perceive the kingdom of God. And you cannot enter the kingdom of God unless you believe in the Son, Christ the Lord..

The reason men receive Christ as Lord is because He has made them of God, by giving to them a new heart and a new spirit.
This is what Christ means by saying He who is of God hears God's words

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

Scott Downey

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More proof we a born again by mercy of God towards us, so that we can believe in Christ, and this was determined for us before time began.
All of Ephesians 1 and 2 show that, also this

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
 

Scott Downey

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And that is just a small part of the mystery of God.
There is so much more.
And it is also in the OT scriptures.
Ezekiel 36 foreshadows the church. God saves us FOR HIS OWN SAKE, according to His purpose and will, not of our wills are we born again and come to believe. God does this to sanctify his Great Name, for the glory of God. The ministry of condemnation was glorious, but the ministry of salvation far exceeds that to the glory of God

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—

And all this is just a part of the mystery of God for the church.

Ezekiel 36
16 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity. 18 Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it. 19 So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds. 20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they have gone out of His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will [e]loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

33 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.

37 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock. 38 Like a [f]flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its [g]feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.” ’ ”
 

Scott Downey

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Another example of this work of God, building the church according to His will.
Acts 15, The Jerusalem council of the apostles and early church how all people who are saved are saved by the grace of Christ towards them.

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus [b]Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14

Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,


Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’
18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works.

19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

But not all gentiles are called. Only those who are called, who are vessels of God's mercy. will inherit eternal life.


Romans 9:23-26​

New King James Version​

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”


Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
 
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Scott Downey

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More proof not all are called. If you are saved, that proves you were called to be a saint of God and He sanctifies you in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 1:9
God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:26

Glory Only in the Lord​

For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
 

Scott Downey

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More evidence, your personal and individual salvation is due to the POWER OF GOD, NOT OF YOUSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD

God has chosen you. Because He chose you; you also chose and received Him.
God also determined that NO ONE will know Him through wisdom...and logical deduction, that fails.

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the [g]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the [h]disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a [i]stumbling block and to the [j]Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Glory Only in the Lord​

26 For [k]you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many [l]noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the [m]base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”
 

Matthias

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I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss

Your faith is listed as “Other”. What is your faith?

You speak in your posts about “God”. Who or what is your God? Do you believe in more than one?
 

Lapidem

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Once again, you have not used logic. You have employed a logical fallacy. If deductive logic leads to an obvious fallacy and you insist the fallacy is not there, that’s not logic. It’s…cognitive dissonance.
If A: Someone (or even God) knows what I will choose and do, BEFORE I do it in time,
then B: this means I do not choose and am not given a choice in anything (not even what I will eat for breakfast), because if anyone (or even God) knows what I will do before I do it, this means they forced me to do what I chose and gave me no choice.

We can’t even get to step one of a useful conversation because you keep insisting if someone won’t accept your logical fallacy then they are making God to be a liar.

As for your last part, yes, you are quite angry at God. We've all been there.
You're sadly trapping yourself by your own standards. There is no obvious fallacy anywhere. You're in total denial.

Your statement:

"if anyone (or even God) knows what I will do before I do it, this means they forced me to do what I chose and gave me no choice."

is essentially true. You just can't get your head around why it is true.

If option A is 100% inevitable then it is physically impossible for you to choose option B.

There can only ever exist free will, free choice, if nobody, not even God, knows what you will choose in advance.

If you're going to simply keep putting your fingers in your ears going "blah blah blah I can't hear you" then this is all rather pointless.

If you're truly wanting to defend your impossible position then you are going have to demonstrate how it is possible for a person to choose option B when God knows for sure you will pick A.

But you can't do that of course ! :)
 

Lapidem

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Your faith is listed as “Other”. What is your faith?

You speak in your posts about “God”. Who or what is your God? Do you believe in more than one?

Hi. None of that is really relevant to the thread here TBH. The thread is arguing that the defacto concept of the Christian God (alleged to be Omniscient) must by simple logic mean that we do not actually have free will. What I personally believe doesn't matter to the discussion.
 
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Matthias

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Hi. None of that i really relevant to the thread here TBH. The thread is arguing that the defacto concept of the Christian God (alleged to be Omniscient) must by simple logic mean that we do not actually have free will. What I personally believe doesn't matter to the discussion.

What you personally believe, in general, is of interest to me. I’d like to understand who I’m speaking with.

I think what you believe is relevant to this discussion because you refer to “the Christian God“. I’m a Christian who disagrees with the majority of Christians on who the true Christian God is. I believe the Christian God is the Messiah’s God. The majority of Christians believe the Christian God is the Trinity.

Who do you think the Christian God is?

I’d still like to know who your God is.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You're sadly trapping yourself by your own standards. There is no obvious fallacy anywhere. You're in total denial.

Your statement:

"if anyone (or even God) knows what I will do before I do it, this means they forced me to do what I chose and gave me no choice."

is essentially true. You just can't get your head around why it is true.

If option A is 100% inevitable then it is physically impossible for you to choose option B.

There can only ever exist free will, free choice, if nobody, not even God, knows what you will choose in advance.

If you're going to simply keep putting your fingers in your ears going "blah blah blah I can't hear you" then this is all rather pointless.

If you're truly wanting to defend your impossible position then you are going have to demonstrate how it is possible for a person to choose option B when God knows for sure you will pick A.

But you can't do that of course ! :)
Nope. I do not have to prove how it is possible for a person to choose option B. If God has prophesied they will choose option A, that’s what is going to happen.
Your knot is in insisting that because God is psychic and knows what’s going to happen, even a thousand years from now with a person who isn’t born yet, then that ability to see into the future, and therefore utter prophecy, means that God forced the slaughter of Indians, God forced Jeffrey Dahmer to eat people, God forced Hitler to exterminate a few million people, God forces people to sexually abuse small children.
In fact, God then forced satan to do everything he ever did, which means satan is a poor victim and God is a monster.
im assuming this is the conclusion you would like to have others come to? That God is a monster and satan is his poor victim? Or is it just that you would like no one to believe God exists? Or maybe you want to posit a new God of some sort?
 
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Dropship

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Question- If God is omniscient (all knowing), he wouldn't need to put us to the test on this testing ground called Earth to find out if we pass or fail because he'd already know wouldn't he?..:)
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12)
 
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ScottA

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That's an interesting life philosophy, may I ask what sect, doctrine it stems from?

So if I understand you here, you believe that you are somehow existing some place other than "here" which is outside of time and you're making all your life decisions in that place, and then you're experiencing the results of those decisions here in the Earthly world?
Or are you more leaning towards the situation that I think another poster mentioned where they suggested that before we are born, we get to decide what life we want to experience and then our minds are wiped during birth so we don't remember making that choice?
It is not a sect belief, a doctrine, or philosophy, nor a mere belief of mine, but the truth from God.

No, we are not "making" life decisions as it were, for time is a mere illusion. The easiest way to understand it is as it is written: that all this world and the would-be chronology occurred before the world was, making this all just the revealing of it, like the reading of news. The "here" of this "Earthly world" is not so much a place, but rather an aside within the mind of God.
Are you saying that what we see and witness in our lives here on Earth is not actually real ? Or is this leaning towards a scenario where you believe we've already lived, and then died, and then been given a second chance and that this existence here on Earth IS that second chance?
What is real is what is of God, and therefore this experience we have in this would be image created by God for revealing what "is" in baby steps, is indeed real. But it is real like a picture ("image") in and of itself is real, but also not real as it may be perceived to be, as it is a mere image of what is actually real.

As for "leaning", or things before or after...those are all time in nature and therefore not the case. Which is not wrong for you to speak of in those terms--even I am doing so, as has God also. That is the method and language of revelation. But I am now explaining it and must call it wrong according to actual reality which is timeless. So, to answer your question...the things of this world and what seemingly exists on a timeline when it actually does not--they are actually happening in real time in our way of thinking, but actually without time. A good way to understand it is to consider Light cast through a prism. The light was not off and now on, but was and is Light (if you have read the scriptures this Light has a name). But back to the prism: there is no chronology to the separations of the light, but you would think there was if you were to walk through them over a would-be lifetime. That is what God has done. That is what this is: Timeless revelation over would-be time.

So, no, it is not exactly as you said; but yes, this is us dead in stasis--which makes our would-be (appearing) second chance, our only chance.
If any creator purposefully made us, then that creator is responsible for what was created. The created being can only function accoding to how it was built/designed/created. If the created being does not love, then it's because it was created that way. If the created being is given total freedom to live and be then the creator must surely accept whatever choices the created beings make. Punishing them for not doing what he wants them to do would be rather churlish and sadistic.
Your logic is not wrong, but your assumption and conclusion is.

Yes, the fallen nature of mankind was indeed "purposefully made." Imagine therefore that all things had no definition, no contrast, no means of interaction, nor even a way of determining any difference between good and evil. Imagine sitting alone and blind and deaf, without touch, smell or taste...just a mind to think. Within a being of One--boring, yes, but no problem. But with more than one you would need or perhaps want all of those. Hence, all that is good and light, but also all that is bad and dark or evil.

Not that you should or could be expected to also imagine a solution to such a cosmic problem...but if you can imagine the benefits and the problems that might ensue, you might also imagine the purpose for what we are now in the midst of--which is, God eliminating darkness and evil in the best, most lovable way possible--that is: by choice.

Thus, if one prefers darkness and evil, or all that is good--that is what they are going to get...for eternity. God can do that, and He is, and it is good, very good.
 
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Scott Downey

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You're sadly trapping yourself by your own standards. There is no obvious fallacy anywhere. You're in total denial.

Your statement:

"if anyone (or even God) knows what I will do before I do it, this means they forced me to do what I chose and gave me no choice."

is essentially true. You just can't get your head around why it is true.

If option A is 100% inevitable then it is physically impossible for you to choose option B.

There can only ever exist free will, free choice, if nobody, not even God, knows what you will choose in advance.

If you're going to simply keep putting your fingers in your ears going "blah blah blah I can't hear you" then this is all rather pointless.

If you're truly wanting to defend your impossible position then you are going have to demonstrate how it is possible for a person to choose option B when God knows for sure you will pick A.

But you can't do that of course ! :)
Unless you believe according to the scriptures, you can never know the truth and be saved. What Christ saves us from is this evil present age and it's coming doom of destruction. All of it is going to burn. The first destruction was by water, the coming one will be by fire.
See right now your arguing according to wisdom, but God decreed by wisdom you will never find or know Him.
As well Christians can never by logical reasoning save anyone else. The trusting in Christ comes to a person by revelation from God, the Holy Spirit is the Teacher. No Christian can teach someone to know the Lord, yet they try. Read Hebrews 8 about this new covenant.

2 Peter 3​

New King James Version​

God’s Promise Is Not Slack​

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Question- If God is omniscient (all knowing), he wouldn't need to put us to the test on this testing ground called Earth to find out if we pass or fail because he'd already know wouldn't he?..:)
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12)
Why do you assume the test is for God to find out something?
 

Lapidem

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Nope. I do not have to prove how it is possible for a person to choose option B. If God has prophesied they will choose option A, that’s what is going to happen.
I'm afraid yes you do. You're the one asserting that even if an Omniscient God knows/says that you will choose option A, that you can still choose option B freely. You need to explain how that is possible or else restate your position, or failing that bow out of the discussion.

stunnedbygrace said:
Your knot is in insisting that because God is psychic and knows what’s going to happen, even a thousand years from now with a person who isn’t born yet, then that ability to see into the future, and therefore utter prophecy, means that God forced the slaughter of Indians, God forced Jeffrey Dahmer to eat people, God forced Hitler to exterminate a few million people, God forces people to sexually abuse small children.
In fact, God then forced satan to do everything he ever did, which means satan is a poor victim and God is a monster.
im assuming this is the conclusion you would like to have others come to? That God is a monster and satan is his poor victim? Or is it just that you would like no one to believe God exists? Or maybe you want to posit a new God of some sort?

I don't believe in psychics or magic or Harry Potter nonsense. No rational person should. Everything happens according to universal laws, physics, chemistry etc. That's the way the universe is and if there exists a Christian God, that's how he designed it. To KNOW something requires information. Data. If God knows the future it's because he has that information, that data. If we humans don't know the future it's because we don't have that information, we don't have access to it. Once you start invoking the "Divine Default" you've left the path of logic and wisdom. The "Divine Default" being, you've reached the point where you can't rationally respond to an issue which challenges a belief system and so you just say "well God is God, it's just magic" or some equivalent. God is not psychic, that's surely an insult to his power and intelligence. God, as alleged by religions is all-powerful, all-knowing and thus has the infinite computing power to understand every tiny facet, every tiny thing that is going on in the universe. So when you roll a pair of dice, God knows the air density, the speed of the dice, the direction of the dice, the rotation of the dice, the friction of the table, the ambient temperature and a gazillion other factors that are all impacting the dice at that moment in time. Hence he knows how the dice will end up. The dice are not remotely random, they just seem random to stupid humans incapable of computing the gazilion factors involved.

Once you realise this immense interplay of universal factors and the basic system of cause and effect, then you realise that everything going on is just a part of that giant system. Everything is happening via cause and effect. That being the case it is all predictable. It was predictable from the very first moment in time.

To clarify your latter points. The defacto Christian God described as Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omni-benevolent and Omni-present can not possibly exist. Everything we see on a daily basis evidentially confirms it.

If there exists an all-powerful God then he is callous, indifferent to humans and their suffering and not someone worthy of worship.

If there exists an all-loving God then he is weak and powerless and cannot prevent human death and suffering

If there exists an all-knowing God then by definition everything is predestined otherwise it could not be known, hence no free will
 

Lapidem

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Question- If God is omniscient (all knowing), he wouldn't need to put us to the test on this testing ground called Earth to find out if we pass or fail because he'd already know wouldn't he?..:)
Correct. So he's either not Omniscient or he's a very sad bored entity.

He allegedly created the garden of Eden, put Adam and Eve in there. Put the forbidden tree in there knowing that they would be tempted to eat from it, knowing that they would eat from it and knowing all that would transpire as a result of them eating from it. As you say it's an exercise in futility and surely boredom for an Omniscient God to test anyone for he must already know exactly what will happen.

There are thus 2 possibilities here.

1) This Christian God doesn't exist at all, it's a complete fabrication

2) Christians the world over have been badly misled by religious doctrine and the God that does exist is vastly different to what they have been told, including that God can not be Omniscient (and we have free will) or God cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving. In which case we should all "empty our cups" according to Chinese wisdom, and start a fresh spiritual search into who or what really does sit at the heart of the universe.