An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Scott Downey]

Mark 4, Jesus speaks a parable to the people, then He says this, only if God has opened your mind to have an ear to hear what the Spirit says, will you understand the parable, and He also then explains to them the parable, but this is not for the outside crowd to know what it means.

9 And He said [c]to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [d]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”

The Parable of the Sower Explained​

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

Anyone who tries to tell you parables reveal the truth plainly, and meant as a teaching tool of reality to all the masses of people, is smoking something. The purpose of parables is to hide the truth, yet also for Jesus to speak of the mysteries of the kingdom in a way so that the people will not understand and be forgiven their sins.

This is because our individual salvation is of the Lord and not of man. God is the one who creates in us the new birth. You have no part in that decision. This is done according to the will and purpose of God alone.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 3 also proves this truth.

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born [a]again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

That wind of God's Spirit blows where He wishes and not according to your wishes to make you born of God, This is the Spirit of God's decision alone. That also is why Christ said not to marvel as it is a work of God in your life according to His eternal purposes.

And John 1 agrees with this. Only after you are born again of the Spirit, are you then receiving Christ as the Lord to save you. Time wise, v13 's action comes before v12's result.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [f]is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16 [g]And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

And also 1 John 5:1 agrees as well
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Another example of why people do not believe in Him, v38
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

John 5
36 But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

To have the Father's word abiding in you means you are of God, meaning you are born of His Spirit. And when Christ speaks, you will listen.
When He appears in your life, you will believe.
v42, unbelievers do not have the love of God abiding inside them, as they are not born again of the Spirit according to His will.
v40 so then they refuse to come to Christ so that they can have life.

John 8
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians 2 explains that either you are of your father the devil, or you are of God.
There never is an in-between state, all who do not believe in Christ all follow the devil and pursue the lusts of the flesh.
God is the only one who makes that change in your life. All believers were at one time by nature children of wrath. But the difference was God's great love manifested towards those whom He loved from before the ages began, to whom He foreknew from the beginning of time as His people for his own purpose and will.
-----------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Another example
2 Thessalonians 2

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.
------------------------------------
"Chose you from the beginning" of what? Well, before time began, in the beginning, God individually chose you for salvation, marked you out to become saved.
------------------------------------
2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[Lapidem]

No, you’re wrong. If you were right there would be no judgement, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross and no consequences for sin.

Well precisely. So the concept of an Omniscient God looks to bee on shaky ground

 

[Lapidem]

You will get lost in the madness as I did unless you understand and keep in mind that he does not believe the Bible portrays God and thinks what the Bible says is absurd. I’d call him more atheistic than agnostic, based on what I’ve read of his posts.

Hes not trying to debate or search for truth. He isn’t exploring. He’s just presenting his belief that if God exists, it’s not the God in the Bible.

At first, I began to think I must be dealing with an actual dearth of IQ, but that’s not it. He has a capable enough mind. Ive seen him use it somewhat critically concerning at least one certain topic. So he CAN think. He just can’t think or interact in lively discussion where THIS topic is concerned because he’s walled himself off from it. And a man who can’t question whether there might be something he’s not seeing can’t learn further.

You've become incredibly jaded sadly and there's much frustration in you. FWIW I do think the Bible contains important information about "God" and "Christ" but we simply have different notions about what those things are. You clearly take a classic literal interpretation of the text which then of course leads to all manner of problems, inconsistencies and contradictions which then you have to find ways to either ignore, compartmentalise or find excuses for. I don't have that problem since I see the Bible allegorically.

None of which really matters. My personal beliefs here aren't relevant to this particular debate.

So far no-one has been able to refute the logic presented in the OP. Most just want to assert that it's wrong but can't explain why. Which is of course denial, the inability to accept something that challenges a belief system. As for my IQ, well I guess it depends how you measure and appraise that. If you go by the IQ test puzzle books then I come out around 140 but they're obviously nowhere near accurate as that puts me up with Einstein. I get 140 because I happen to love puzzles and crosswords and the like. Actually that's likely why I came to know and understand the cryptic and allegorical parts of the Bible that contain important secrets. I guess I had "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the things that were hidden in plain sight there.

 

[Lapidem]

Ephesians 2 explains that either you are of your father the devil, or you are of God.
There never is an in-between state, all who do not believe in Christ all follow the devil and pursue the lusts of the flesh.
God is the only one who makes that change in your life. All believers were at one time by nature children of wrath. But the difference was God's great love manifested towards those whom He loved from before the ages began, to whom He foreknew from the beginning of time as His people for his own purpose and will.

Hi Scott

Just so you know it's not necessary to paste reams of Bible quotes. A link to the quote is just fine. Pages of quotes tends to push other people's contributions off the page.

I'm aware of the passages you quote and in particular the various parables of Jesus. I'm also very familiar with the passages in Matthew where he talks about the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven". It's likely however that we don't agree about what that's actually relating to. It refers to a very particular secret imo which is also mentioned in Proverbs, and in Song Of Solomon and which the early parts of Genesis also allegorically relate to. But that's another discussion entirely !

 

[Space_Karen]

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.

That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

If you drop a rock from the a tall building 10 minutes from now.

My foreknowledge of the future predicts gravity will cause the rock to fall to the ground.

Does my foreknowledge of the future do anything to diminish your free will in dropping said rock.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You've become incredibly jaded sadly and there's much frustration in you. FWIW I do think the Bible contains important information about "God" and "Christ" but we simply have different notions about what those things are. You clearly take a classic literal interpretation of the text which then of course leads to all manner of problems, inconsistencies and contradictions which then you have to find ways to either ignore, compartmentalise or find excuses for. I don't have that problem since I see the Bible allegorically.

None of which really matters. My personal beliefs here aren't relevant to this particular debate.

So far no-one has been able to refute the logic presented in the OP. Most just want to assert that it's wrong but can't explain why. Which is of course denial, the inability to accept something that challenges a belief system. As for my IQ, well I guess it depends how you measure and appraise that. If you go by the IQ test puzzle books then I come out around 140 but they're obviously nowhere near accurate as that puts me up with Einstein. I get 140 because I happen to love puzzles and crosswords and the like. Actually that's likely why I came to know and understand the cryptic and allegorical parts of the Bible that contain important secrets. I guess I had "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the things that were hidden in plain sight there.

lol

 

[Lapidem]

If you drop a rock from the a tall building 10 minutes from now.

My foreknowledge of the future predicts gravity will cause the rock to fall to the ground.

Does my foreknowledge of the future do anything to diminish your free will in dropping said rock.

Hi Space Karen

The act of going through the motion of dropping a rock is always unaffected. It is going to happen, it was always going to happen. What matters for the purposes of this discussion is the OUTCOME of the choice or action. So for your scenario the rock is going to fall, not because you chose it to fall but because science, physics and a gazillion factors are in play that ensure that it will fall. In other words it is impossible for the rock to do anything but fall. There is only one possible outcome and thus no free will in the matter.

A better example that would be in tune with the purpose of this thread is to say that in 10 minutes time you will throw your rock either into a blue bucket or a red bucket. It will be your choice which bucket to aim for.

There are lots of possible outcomes:

- Rock goes into blue bucket
- Rock goes into red bucket
- Rock misses both buckets
- You choose not to throw the rock at all
- You suddenly drop dead just before throwing the rock
- A nuclear bomb destroys everything before the choice is made

and so on.

Now tell me, if an Omniscient God tells ME 10 mins before you make what you think will be a free choice, that you will throw the rock into the blue bucket, what do you think is going to happen?

Do you believe that you can still throw the rock into red bucket? Do you think you can prove God wrong?

If not then what do you think is going on when you throw the rock?

 

[Space_Karen]

Hi Space Karen

The act of going through the motion of dropping a rock is always unaffected. It is going to happen, it was always going to happen. What matters for the purposes of this discussion is the OUTCOME of the choice or action. So for your scenario the rock is going to fall, not because you chose it to fall but because science, physics and a gazillion factors are in play that ensure that it will fall. In other words it is impossible for the rock to do anything but fall. There is only one possible outcome and thus no free will in the matter.

A better example that would be in tune with the purpose of this thread is to say that in 10 minutes time you will throw your rock either into a blue bucket or a red bucket. It will be your choice which bucket to aim for.

There are lots of possible outcomes:

- Rock goes into blue bucket
- Rock goes into red bucket
- Rock misses both buckets
- You choose not to throw the rock at all
- You suddenly drop dead just before throwing the rock
- A nuclear bomb destroys everything before the choice is made

and so on.

Now tell me, if an Omniscient God tells ME 10 mins before you make what you think will be a free choice, that you will throw the rock into the blue bucket, what do you think is going to happen?

Do you believe that you can still throw the rock into red bucket? Do you think you can prove God wrong?

If not then what do you think is going on when you throw the rock?

I still contend that foreknowledge of the future does nothing to diminish free will.

Everyone probably has a story about their parents warning them about something ahead of time. Where they chose to disregard their parent's warning. And their parents prediction later turned out to be completely accurate.

Accurate warnings of the future do not necessarily do anything to deter free will or choice.

Whether its God warning Adam he would end if he ate the forbidden fruit, Noah warning everyone of a coming flood, or parental warnings of the future which are later proven accurate. People never ever heed the warnings.

Therefore they cannot claim that warnings affect their free will or freedom of choice. As they never heed the warnings.

 

[Scott Downey]

No one except God has a perfect free will.
People's wills are bound to imposed constraints of the environment they find themselves in.
People can make choices within those boundaries, and God holds us accountable for choices we make.
However, the box we find ourselves in is imposed on us by circumstances created by God.

Those who are slaves of sin to the devil, (most of humanity), are not free and are bound to the same fate as their father the devil.
They are ruled by their passions whatever they may be and cannot overcome them but are overcome by those passions.
You may as well compare them to wild beasts.
Does a wild beast have a free will? or is its response to stimuli programmed into it by its own nature.

The unsaved most certainly are not free, they do not know the truth or believe the truth, their wills are bound.
Only in Christ can you have freedom from SIN, Christ tells Peter the sons of God are free.

And you wont find any good wisdom about the kingdom of God, which is the only thing that matters, apart from reading the scriptures, otherwise the things people say are sophistries. People want to make disciples after themselves, to get them to agree with their own fallacious arguments. That is the sign of a false teacher, not pointing them to Christ.

Even as believers we may become free of the constraints imposed on us by the evil society which we live among, we are still not free of God. Every single person, like it or not belongs to another and is not free. Does a slave have a free will?

Romans 6

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were [e]delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness [f]for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit [g]to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [h]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

The sons are free, yet still are slaves of righteousness and God.​

Thinking in terms of free will is not the ways of God. Free will choices led to the fall in Eden. Free will exalts itself above the knowledge of God. You can say Satan exercised free will and became what he is today. One of the teachings of satanism is do what thou will. It is of evil to attempt to cast off the restraint of God, and you will fail in the end as the will of God cannot be resisted.
Even Christ often said, not my will but thine be done.

Read Psalm 2​

Matthew 17:24-27​

​

New King James Version​

​

24 When they had come to [a]Capernaum, those who received the [b]temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”
25 He said, “Yes.”
And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”
26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”
Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a [c]piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Psalm 2
New King James Version
​

The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom​

1 Why do the [a]nations [b]rage,
And the people plot a [c]vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed,[d] saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have [e]set My King
[f]On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the [g]decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall [h]break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 [i]Kiss the Son, lest [j]He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

 

[Lapidem]

I still contend that foreknowledge of the future does nothing to diminish free will.

Everyone probably has a story about their parents warning them about something ahead of time. Where they chose to disregard their parent's warning. And their parents prediction later turned out to be completely accurate.

Accurate warnings of the future do not necessarily do anything to deter free will or choice.

Whether its God warning Adam he would end if he ate the forbidden fruit, Noah warning everyone of a coming flood, or parental warnings of the future which are later proven accurate. People never ever heed the warnings.

Therefore they cannot claim that warnings affect their free will or freedom of choice. As they never heed the warnings.

I think you're straying fairly far from the thread matter there. We're not talking about warnings or indeed anyone's predictions which could all be fallible and wrong. We're specifically talking about an all-knowing, infallible, perfect God. Your contending that "foreknowledge of the future does nothing to diminish free will" is simply opinion given without substance to support it which is what another poster in this thread has also done.

If you are contending that a person's free choice is totally free and that all possible options are available then as stated before you need to explain how you can choose to throw your rock into the red bucket when the infallible, perfect God knows / says you will throw it into the blue bucket. You've not provided and explanation as to how that could be possible. Simply saying "you still have free will" doesn't cut it. It's basically denial, refusal to face up to the problem.

 

[Lapidem]

No one except God has a perfect free will.
People's wills are bound to imposed constraints of the environment they find themselves in.
People can make choices within those boundaries, and God holds us accountable for choices we make.
However, the box we find ourselves in is imposed on us by circumstances created by God.

Hi Scott

Thanks for the above. I think that's a great start and possibly one of the most honest things posted in this thread. You've confirmed that we do not actually have true free-will at all and that all we actually have is a highly constrained set of choices which God has totally controlled and imposed upon us. I'd be surprised if that view wasn't challenged by the "Fundies" though.

So the problem for me personally, is that there's no grey area here for me. We either have true, completely open free-will or we have some form of enslavement, authoritarian control and the illusion of choice. If you stick a bird in a cage, no matter how large, you're controlling that life adversely, preventing it from being itself and living as nature intended. It's a hugely cruel thing to put a bird in a cage imho.

Choices are not free, ever, if significant constraints are imposed. If you throw into the mix the threat of a "gun to the head" in whatever form then any notion of having free-will is clearly a complete joke and travesty. Hence the notion of "freely choose God or else spend eternity in Hell" is likewise just preposterously ridiculous to the point where anyone who thinks an all-loving God would operate in such a way must be extremely brainwashed or deluded. Can you imagine a loving parent saying to it's child "go and tidy up your bedroom otherwise we going to tie you to a bonfire and set light to it"? The mere idea is patently stupid.

Yet bizarrely enough there ARE millions of people who actually do think this is an acceptable situation.

 

[Lapidem]

Those who are slaves of sin to the devil, (most of humanity), are not free and are bound to the same fate as their father the devil.

Hang on. Didn't God create every human? How can the Devil be anyone's father?

And you wont find any good wisdom about the kingdom of God, which is the only thing that matters, apart from reading the scriptures, otherwise the things people say are sophistries. People want to make disciples after themselves, to get them to agree with their own fallacious arguments. That is the sign of a false teacher, not pointing them to Christ.

So you believe that anyone who doesn't point people to Christ must be a false teacher. And thus people who teach the Rigveda or Quran are all false teachers? It's sad to hear this as of course this kind of fundamentalism is what divides people and nations and causes wars and suffering. If you understood that all these religious works carry and conceal the same messages and secrets allegorically and thus are in fact all in harmony, then you might think differently.

Even as believers we may become free of the constraints imposed on us by the evil society which we live among, we are still not free of God. Every single person, like it or not belongs to another and is not free. Does a slave have a free will?

This is quite depressing really. You're saying we're all trapped, not free at all, we can't escape our captor. What an awful universe that would be. This doesn't speak to an all-loving God. It speaks to the jealous, wrathful, vengeful God described in the OT.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit [g]to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [h]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Slavery is slavery. Even if one slave master feeds his slave nice food whilst another is cruel and harsh. Neither are imo acceptable outcomes or desirable lives.

 

[Lapidem]

The sons are free, yet still are slaves of righteousness and God.​

Thinking in terms of free will is not the ways of God. Free will choices led to the fall in Eden. Free will exalts itself above the knowledge of God. x

This isn't correct or rather hides/omits the truth.

It was God who created Eden - knowing what was going to ultimately happen
It was God who created Adam and Eve - knowing what they were going to do
It was God who created the Forbidden Tree - knowing that it would tempt Adam and Eve and make them fall
It was God who set absolutely everything up, the garden, the people, the snake, the tree and who knew exactly what would result from it all.

Who is really to blame for the result?!!!

Imagine creating a child's play pen and putting in it a bowl of sweets and then putting 2 children in there and saying to them "do not eat the sweets otherwise you will die". We all know that after a period of time (not much time at all) the children will eat the sweets.
Creating such an environment in the first place would be an act of self-delusion and be utterly cruel and sadistic. Anyone who contests that the children have free-will is to my mind totally brainwashed and mentally sick.

This is why the literal interpretation of the Bible makes no sense at all and serves only to create Fundamentalists who tend to ignore all the inconsistencies and contradictions that exist. The Bible is not meant to be literal imho. Once you free yourself from the blinkers and shackles of the literal reading and start to see with new eyes, things begin to make sense. As Jesus said you must have "eyes to see and ears to hear" by which is meant that you need to understand how to see what is really written and hidden in the texts. Genesis is not a literal account.

 

[Svetlanagbk]

Прошу помощи ??
Не могу создать первое сообщение.
Спасибо.

 

[Lapidem]

Прошу помощи ??
Не могу создать первое сообщение.
Спасибо.

Вы явно преуспели