An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Scott Downey]

Do you understand what the "tree of life" is? And why it must be eaten?

Hearkens back to the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life and Adam and Eve.
God only commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said nothing about the Tree of Life being forbidden them, but they never chose to eat of the fruit of that Tree.
Jesus also compares Himself to the Vine.
John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

You understand that if you eat of something in the natural world, it goes into you and becomes a part of your body, it is a food source for energy. So it is in the Spirit. Those who eat of Christ, who is the Tree of Life are given a spiritual energy that gives to them an age enduring eternal life, they are born again of the Spirit and actually God gives to them a new heart and a new spirit, a fresh start with God. But until Adam and Eve experienced the penalties of their sin against God, they had no desire to eat of that tree.
If you desire an eternal life to be empowered with the Spirit of God, to be joined to the Lord as one spirit with God, then you will desire to eat of the tree of life as well. Christ will enter your heart and mind, God indwells His people and says they will never be forsaken or come into judgement of Hell as they will have an eternal life with Him.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I also think of this as an eternal promise from God, that you will be continually satisfied with Him. you will be continually filled with His Spirit for the ages to come, and there will be many ages yet to come.

 

[Dropship]

Why do you assume the test is for God to find out something?

To find out who qualifies for heaven..

For example in Genesis 22, God puts Abraham to the test to see if he really would kill his own son-
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
...10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”



See, "Now i know you fear God" implies that God didn't know before the test.
After all what's the purpose of our life on earth if not to be tested?..

 

[Dropship]

There are thus 2 possibilities here.
1) This Christian God doesn't exist at all, it's a complete fabrication
2) Christians the world over have been badly misled by religious doctrine and the God that does exist is vastly different to what they have been told, including that God can not be Omniscient (and we have free will) or God cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving. In which case we should all "empty our cups" according to Chinese wisdom, and start a fresh spiritual search into who or what really does sit at the heart of the universe.

Our human minds haven't the horsepower to understand the nature of God, but Jesus knew him and said-
"Nobody knows the Father except the Son" (Luke 10:22),
and said God was great and terrific, so why shouldn't we believe Jesus?..

 

[Lapidem]

Hearkens back to the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life and Adam and Eve.
God only commanded them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said nothing about the Tree of Life being forbidden them, but they never chose to eat of the fruit of that Tree.

The story you refer to is not literal imho. The "tree of life" is not a tree in the sense that people use the term. It is a metaphor, an allegorical term for something else. It has many different names, in many different religions and cultures. I believe Adam and Eve too are allegorical figures, there to represent the male and female principles of life.

Jesus also compares Himself to the Vine.
John 15
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

More allegorical text. In fact most of what Jesus said was allegorical, especially the parables.

You understand that if you eat of something in the natural world, it goes into you and becomes a part of your body, it is a food source for energy. So it is in the Spirit. Those who eat of Christ, who is the Tree of Life are given a spiritual energy that gives to them an age enduring eternal life, they are born again of the Spirit and actually God gives to them a new heart and a new spirit, a fresh start with God. But until Adam and Eve experienced the penalties of their sin against God, they had no desire to eat of that tree.
If you desire an eternal life to be empowered with the Spirit of God, to be joined to the Lord as one spirit with God, then you will desire to eat of the tree of life as well. Christ will enter your heart and mind, God indwells His people and says they will never be forsaken or come into judgement of Hell as they will have an eternal life with Him.

What we physically eat contains a very small amount of special energy that is encapsulated by the gross matter around it. Every living thing in the universe is powered/sustained by this special energy. Sadly we don't get enough of it from food, drink, the air we breath, from the sun's rays and elsewhere. Consequently our bodies erode, get sick, age and perish. If we had a constant source of that special energy then this would not happen, and like the privileged few, we would enjoy immortality here on Earth in these physical bodies. The allegorical passages like the ones you refer to here and many many others, tell us where we can find that special energy imo.

 

[Lapidem]

To find out who qualifies for heaven..

For example in Genesis 22, God puts Abraham to the test to see if he really would kill his own son-
2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”
...10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”


See, "Now i know you fear God" implies that God didn't know before the test.
After all what's the purpose of our life on earth if not to be tested?..

Frankly I find this tale (if taken literally) utterly abhorent. It's the stuff of nightmares and gels with what we see with religious fanatics who take their chosen scriptures literally and then justify widespread murder for the sake of their "god".
I mean seriously what kind of God or tyrant expects his followers to murder their own children to prove anything? It's just wicked, oppressive and evil. And what the hell was Abraham thinking? Why would you want to worship any entity that demands the death of your own children as a prerequisite for club membership??!! Abraham should have flatly refused and said ":

"I will not kill my child because I love my child and love is good, killing is evil. You can not possibly be the all-loving all-powerful God and so I will not follow or worship you."

Interesting to note in the quotes you provided that God gave the order to kill, but the angel was the entity that stopped him.

I do wonder how people end up following these kind of philosophies. I mean in the current world, if Putin ordered you go and kill your child in order to be part of his New Russian Order with all the benefits and protection that afforded, would you do it?!! I think most people would tell Putin where to go and accept the harsh or even fatal consequences that ensued. Who would want to live under the rule of a tyrant? Is it not better to die on your feet than live on your knees in servitude to tyranny?

And by the way, where was Abraham's free will in all this? This is just another example of the "gun to the head" kind of pseudo free will.

 

[Lapidem]

This is not a discussion. You made an incorrect assertion and I have been telling you what is true with all authority.

You, on the other hand are speculating with the logic of clay as to a Potter. I am not that Potter, but I have spoken for Him.

Take it or leave it, or ask questions, but do not purpose to know what you do not.

It was a discussion forum last I looked and I am here to engage in discussion. Evidently you (or your Potter) are not comfortable with the previous statements I made about the inconsistency of someone not wanting to make ripples in water yet still throwing a stone in.

If God designed and created all things, including both good and evil then I guess only he knows why he did that. As humans we cannot fathom it, yet nevertheless we have to suffer the outfall from it.

 

[Dropship]

Frankly I find this tale (if taken literally) utterly abhorent..

Sorry if it upsets you, but remember God's not some soppy lukewarm lefty social worker or snowflake, that's why we like him..

 

[ScottA]

It was a discussion forum last I looked and I am here to engage in discussion. Evidently you (or your Potter) are not comfortable with the previous statements I made about the inconsistency of someone not wanting to make ripples in water yet still throwing a stone in.

If God designed and created all things, including both good and evil then I guess only he knows why he did that. As humans we cannot fathom it, yet nevertheless we have to suffer the outfall from it.

For clarification: Many come to engage in discussion. I sometimes do as well, but mostly I do not, nor have I been with you here and now.

As for your continued speculations, again you are wrong--humans can indeed fathom what God has done. It just needs to be revealed to us. But you are not listening, as I already explained the reason why "God designed and created all things, including both good and evil."

 

[ScottA]

There are thus 2 possibilities here.

1) This Christian God doesn't exist at all, it's a complete fabrication

2) Christians the world over have been badly misled by religious doctrine and the God that does exist is vastly different to what they have been told, including that God can not be Omniscient (and we have free will) or God cannot be both all-powerful and all-loving. In which case we should all "empty our cups" according to Chinese wisdom, and start a fresh spiritual search into who or what really does sit at the heart of the universe.

This is a reasonable response--which is why I have explained the truth to you.

 

[RLT63]

If God knows that you will choose option A in advance of that choice then very clearly you can not choose option B or C. If you did then God would be proven fallible, not perfect, not omniscient.

It really doesn't matter much how or why God can determine our choices in advance, the problem it gives us is that what we think are choices, can not be choices because the outcome is already determined, because God knows the result already. This is Predeterminism. No free will.

Foreknowledge is not predestination. We are still free to make the choice. You are trying to put limits on a limitless God

 

[Lapidem]

Foreknowledge is not predestination. We are still free to make the choice. You are trying to put limits on a limitless God

Quite the reverse if you think about it.

Foreknowledge, specifically by an Omniscient God, IS by definition predestination because being Omniscient, God can not be wrong. The very point I tried to convey to the other poster who struggled to see the difference between "anyone" having foreknowledge and an Omniscient God having foreknowledge.

If an infallible all-knowing God knows with total certainty that you will make choice A rather than choice B then please explain to me how you can possibly make choice B? For to do so would prove God to be fallible

 

[RLT63]

Quite the reverse if you think about it.

Foreknowledge, specifically by an Omniscient God, IS by definition predestination because being Omniscient, God can not be wrong. The very point I tried to convey to the other poster who struggled to see the difference between "anyone" having foreknowledge and an Omniscient God having foreknowledge.

If an infallible all-knowing God knows with total certainty that you will make choice A rather than choice B then please explain to me how you can possible make choice B? For to do so would prove God to be fallible

You are still free to make the choice. God does not force you to choose A if you want to choose B. You get to make your own choice. Otherwise we wouldn’t be accountable, there would be no judgement and no consequences

 

[Lapidem]

You are still free to make the choice. God does not force you to choose A if you want to choose B. You get to make your own choice. Otherwise we wouldn’t be accountable, there would be no judgement and no consequences

You patently can not choose B because God already knows, with 100% certainty, that you will choose A. So you have no choice at all. Whatever information or data God has that enables him to know what you will choose A, is the very thing that limits your choice to only A. Option B is impossible. What you are left with is the illusion of free choice. Whatever you think you are doing at the point of choice, doesn't matter because you are going to pick option A, without fail. There are literally no circumstances in which you can or will choose option B.


That is, unless there does not exist an Omniscient God !

 

[Lapidem]

This is a reasonable response--which is why I have explained the truth to you.

Have PM'd you

 

[RLT63]

You patently can not choose B because God already knows, with 100% certainty, that you will choose A. So you have no choice at all. Whatever information or data God has that enables him to know what you will choose A, is the very thing that limits your choice to only A. Option B is impossible. What you are left with is the illusion of free choice. Whatever you think you are doing at the point of choice, doesn't matter because you are going to pick option A, without fail. There are literally no circumstances in which you can or will choose option B.


That is, unless there does not exist an Omniscient God !

No, you’re wrong. If you were right there would be no judgement, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross and no consequences for sin.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, you’re wrong. If you were right there would be no judgement, no reason for Jesus to die on the cross and no consequences for sin.

You will get lost in the madness as I did unless you understand and keep in mind that he does not believe the Bible portrays God and thinks what the Bible says is absurd. I’d call him more atheistic than agnostic, based on what I’ve read of his posts.

Hes not trying to debate or search for truth. He isn’t exploring. He’s just presenting his belief that if God exists, it’s not the God in the Bible.

At first, I began to think I must be dealing with an actual dearth of IQ, but that’s not it. He has a capable enough mind. Ive seen him use it somewhat critically concerning at least one certain topic. So he CAN think. He just can’t think or interact in lively discussion where THIS topic is concerned because he’s walled himself off from it. And a man who can’t question whether there might be something he’s not seeing can’t learn further.

 

[RLT63]

You will get lost in the madness as I did unless you understand and keep in mind that he does not believe the Bible portrays God and thinks what the Bible says is absurd. I’d call him more atheistic than agnostic, based on what I’ve read of his posts.

Hes not trying to debate or search for truth. He isn’t exploring. He’s just presenting his belief that if God exists, it’s not the God in the Bible.

At first, I began to think I must be dealing with an actual dearth of IQ, but that’s not it. He has a capable enough mind. Ive seen him use it somewhat critically concerning at least one certain topic. So he CAN think. He just can’t think or interact in lively discussion where THIS topic is concerned because he’s walled himself off from it. And a man who can’t question whether there might be something he’s not seeing can’t learn further.

Thanks for the information

 

[Scott Downey]

The story you refer to is not literal imho. The "tree of life" is not a tree in the sense that people use the term. It is a metaphor, an allegorical term for something else. It has many different names, in many different religions and cultures. I believe Adam and Eve too are allegorical figures, there to represent the male and female principles of life.


More allegorical text. In fact most of what Jesus said was allegorical, especially the parables.




What we physically eat contains a very small amount of special energy that is encapsulated by the gross matter around it. Every living thing in the universe is powered/sustained by this special energy. Sadly we don't get enough of it from food, drink, the air we breath, from the sun's rays and elsewhere. Consequently our bodies erode, get sick, age and perish. If we had a constant source of that special energy then this would not happen, and like the privileged few, we would enjoy immortality here on Earth in these physical bodies. The allegorical passages like the ones you refer to here and many many others, tell us where we can find that special energy imo.

yes of course, Jesus spoke by illustrations and also parables, but this also was a way of hiding the truth to those who are on the outside of the relationship with God.

Further example is John 10 and there was also another reason He spoke to them in parables.

John 10

New King James Version

​

Jesus the True Shepherd​

10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Explanation here is why He spoke in parables, but to His people He privately explained everything more clearly.
It may also be an uncomfortable truth to some, But God makes Himself known in a relationship by his choice according to divine revelation and not by people figuring things out on their own.

Matthew 13, Jesus tells us it was not given to them who are outside to know the mysteries of the kingdom by plain explanation.
Parables and illustration hide spiritual truths.

The Purpose of Parables​

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Prophecy and the Parables​

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Again Luke 8

The Purpose of Parables​

9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the [f]mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’