An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Scott Downey]

Hang on. Didn't God create every human? How can the Devil be anyone's father?




So you believe that anyone who doesn't point people to Christ must be a false teacher. And thus people who teach the Rigveda or Quran are all false teachers? It's sad to hear this as of course this kind of fundamentalism is what divides people and nations and causes wars and suffering. If you understood that all these religious works carry and conceal the same messages and secrets allegorically and thus are in fact all in harmony, then you might think differently.




This is quite depressing really. You're saying we're all trapped, not free at all, we can't escape our captor. What an awful universe that would be. This doesn't speak to an all-loving God. It speaks to the jealous, wrathful, vengeful God described in the OT.



Slavery is slavery. Even if one slave master feeds his slave nice food whilst another is cruel and harsh. Neither are imo acceptable outcomes or desirable lives.

I am going by the Christian scriptures, what they speak of to form my thoughts in these posts.
How the devil can be the father of all the unsaved is that idea like father, like son. And Jesus says the same thing of the unbelieving Jews who kept challenging His authenticity, read John 8:13-59

Scripture tells us wicked people desire to do things that the devil teaches them to do in the world.
The pursuit of the flesh really and all the evil things that means. Satan operates in the realm of the flesh, which is described as demonic wisdom in scripture that comes from below, from the satanic realm on the earth. But God is a spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

James 3
Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.

Wisdom from Satan
14 But if you have bitter envy and [h]self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

Wisdom from God
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Ephesians 4

The New Man​

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 2

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

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Adma and Eve made a decision in the garden of Eden to listen to Satan and not to believe what God had said. Ever since they made that choice, the human race has been under the sway of Satan, except for the ones whom God shines His light into their heart.
Due to that, Satan has blinded the minds of them that believe not, who are perishing, to prevent them seeing the light of the gospel of Christ. But God commanded His light to shine in our hearts and then we believe.

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of Christ’s Gospel​

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Lapidem]

Adma and Eve made a decision in the garden of Eden to listen to Satan and not to believe what God had said. Ever since they made that choice, the human race has been under the sway of Satan, except for the ones whom God shines His light into their heart.

Adam and Eve simply responded, just as they had been created and designed to by God, to a set of circumstances that had been deliberately created by God to produce that result. They did not have true free-will any more than we have it. The entire setup was loaded / rigged from the start according to God's will. As stated before, God created the garden, the people, the snake, the tree and specifically drew attention to it by forbidding Adam from eating of it. The whole story is a nonsense if taken literally. It describes a God that is engaging in self-delusion, pretending to create a free scenario when he already knows it's all set up to produce a given result. God must be extremely bored if this is all true.

But of course it isn't. Genesis is not literal. These stories are allegorical. While ever you persist with a literal translation you run into endless inconsistencies and problems.

 

[Adam]

One cannot comprehend the idea of omniscience. Let's say you have a choice of A or B. Must it be one or the other? That is a very human way of looking at things. God's mind has many more dimensions than ours. What if both choices happen simultaneously in different universes? What if there are infinite universes, where every possible choice happens? What if there are infinite you's and infinite ABCD's? What if there are states which are superpositions of A and B together, along with C and D? There is no limit on the computational power of God's mind and no reason why God can't just brute force (to use a computing phrase) every possible reality into existence at once, or exist in a quantum state between possibilities, or perhaps a state where the things one does ripples both forward and backward in time.

 

[Lapidem]

One cannot comprehend the idea of omniscience. Let's say you have a choice of A or B. Must it be one or the other? That is a very human way of looking at things. God's mind has many more dimensions than ours. What if both choices happen simultaneously in different universes? What if there are infinite universes, where every possible choice happens? What if there are infinite you's and infinite ABCD's? What if there are states which are superpositions of A and B together, along with C and D? There is no limit on the computational power of God's mind and no reason why God can't just brute force (to use a computing phrase) every possible reality into existence at once, or exist in a quantum state between possibilities, or perhaps a state where the things one does ripples both forward and backward in time.

We can only respond to what happens in our universe, our living experience so alternative universes don't really matter in this respect.
Worth noting though that if there are infinite universes and all possibilities are happening then being Omniscient is meaningless.

As for brute force I've already mentioned that upthread though not by that specific term (like you I understand computing terms well but others here might not). I mentioned it by saying that if God has the immense computing power needed to process the gazillions of factors that are in play all around us then he surely can compute in advance what choices we will make because he sees all the factors that are influencing and shaping those choices. In the same way he can compute how a pair of dice will end up when thrown because he can compute the speeds, rotational energy of the dice, friction, air resitance, density, ambient temperature, gravity, rotation of the earth and all the millions of other factors involved.

Once you accept that God can compute all those things then the logical outcome is that no dice are ever random because the outcome is totally predictable and can be computed (with enough computing power). In the same way, our choices must not be our own because if God can calculate all the factors then it is those factors that are shaping the choice. It only seems like a choice to us because we can't comprehend all the factors involved. Similarly throwing dice seems to us like they are random when of course they really are not.

We can not have free-will if the outcome can be known in advance with 100% certainty. The very definition of free-will is that no-one, not even God can know in advance what we will choose since all options must be a real possibility until the point of choice.

 

[Scott Downey]

Adam and Eve simply responded, just as they had been created and designed to by God, to a set of circumstances that had been deliberately created by God to produce that result. They did not have true free-will any more than we have it. The entire setup was loaded / rigged from the start according to God's will. As stated before, God created the garden, the people, the snake, the tree and specifically drew attention to it by forbidding Adam from eating of it. The whole story is a nonsense if taken literally. It describes a God that is engaging in self-delusion, pretending to create a free scenario when he already knows it's all set up to produce a given result. God must be extremely bored if this is all true.

But of course it isn't. Genesis is not literal. These stories are allegorical. While ever you persist with a literal translation you run into endless inconsistencies and problems.

Well of course, who let Satan into Eden? The Lord God left the way into Eden unguarded.
I don't view these stories as allegorical, They really happened, and indeed why not? You are not God to know His thoughts.

God does everything He does for His glory.
That sin came into the world was foreordained.
As was Christ foreordained before the creation of the world to be the savior.
Since God is all powerful, omniscient, and the creator, by His very Nature, God creates all things and the circumstances that cause them to happen.
God creates celestial beings who I think made some bad choices, perhaps they wanted godlike powers, and they were self deceived, thinking God would not mind enough to create hell and the lake of fire to torment them eternally. Christ said that hellfire was created for the devil and his angels, so then was a response to their disobedience and them leaving heaven to strike out on their own down on the earth, against the express will of God. So before angels sinned there was no hell.

Even so, God foreknew all that would happen, and brought about the circumstances to make sure it did happen. So yes, a grand spectacle to men and angels is the universe.
God also tells us, He chooses to whom He will be merciful and to whom He will show His compassion. We actually are of a similar nature, being created in His image. We love who we will love, and dislike or hate others. People are very tribal by nature.
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Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
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An example in the OT where the division of the tribes was of the Lord.

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So Israel departed to their tents. 17 But Rehoboam reigned over the children of Israel who dwelt in the cities of Judah.

18 Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was in charge of the revenue; but all Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem. 19 So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

20 Now it came to pass when all Israel heard that Jeroboam had come back, they sent for him and called him to the congregation, and made him king over all Israel. There was none who followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

21 And when Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah with the tribe of Benjamin, one hundred and eighty thousand chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, that he might restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. 22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 23 “Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, to all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people, saying, 24 ‘Thus says the Lord: “You shall not go up nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel. Let every man return to his house, for this thing is from Me.” ’ ” Therefore they obeyed the word of the Lord, and turned back, according to the word of the Lord.

 

[Scott Downey]

Acts 17, Paul tells us that God started with Adam alone (one blood) and has determined their preappointed times and national boundaries, thru all time this is true down to the present days. To the point they should seek the Lord, however man being what he is, this is more of a proof that condemns them at the judgement, no one seeks for God, they setup their own idols.
And they are disobedient to God's command to believe in His Son.

26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

Addressing the Areopagus​

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the [i]Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

 

[Lapidem]

I don't view these stories as allegorical, They really happened, and indeed why not? You are not God to know His thoughts.

I'm sad to hear that for it means you do not have the "eyes to see" that Jesus referred to and thus the hidden secrets in Genesis are shielded from you. They are only seen and understood when you realise these are not literal stories and when you understand the allegorical language and associated terms used by those who guard the knowledge of the "mysteries of the Kingdom".

Presumably if you think Adam and Eve were real and the first humans then you think that all mankind must have spawned from one enormous process of incest ?! Does that sit well with Christianity?

 

[Scott Downey]

I'm sad to hear that for it means you do not have the "eyes to see" that Jesus referred to and thus the hidden secrets in Genesis are shielded from you. They are only seen and understood when you realise these are not literal stories and when you understand the allegorical language and associated terms used by those who guard the knowledge of the "mysteries of the Kingdom".

Presumably if you think Adam and Eve were real and the first humans then you think that all mankind must have spawned from one enormous process of incest ?! Does that sit well with Christianity?

No problem with that IMO.
Adam is spoken of by Paul as a real individual
The law was given thru Moses, before the law came, there was no taboo of marrying a sister.

here are all NT references to Adam, NKJV

1. Luke 3:38
   the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 5:12
   

   Death in Adam, Life in Christ​

   Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Romans 5:14
   Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. 1 Corinthians 15:22
   For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. 1 Corinthians 15:45
   And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam becamea life-giving spirit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
6. 1 Timothy 2:13
   For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
7. 1 Timothy 2:14
   And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
8. Jude 1:14
   Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Paul was a very learned person, exceeding in knowledge far beyond what most knew

 

[Lapidem]

No problem with that IMO.
Adam is spoken of by Paul as a real individual

Paul was a very learned person, exceedingly far beyond what most knew

Just lols

So we're conveniently ignoring this then:

Leviticus 18:6-12

‘None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness; I am the Lord. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.read more.
The nakedness of your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether born at home or born outside, their nakedness you shall not uncover. The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for their nakedness is yours. The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, born to your father, she is your sister, you shall not uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is your father’s blood relative."

 

[Lapidem]

and this:

Deuteronomy 27:20-23

‘Cursed is he who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s skirt.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ ‘Cursed is he who lies with any animal.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ ‘Cursed is he who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’read more.
‘Cursed is he who lies with his mother-in-law.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

 

[Scott Downey]

and this:

Deuteronomy 27:20-23

‘Cursed is he who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s skirt.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ ‘Cursed is he who lies with any animal.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ ‘Cursed is he who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’read more.
‘Cursed is he who lies with his mother-in-law.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Adam was before the Law of God was given, the Law was given thru Moses.

 

[Lapidem]

The Bible is chock full of problems, inconsistencies and contradictions if you try to read it literally. It's an exercise in futilty and self-denial imo.

 

[Lapidem]

Adam was before the Law of God was given, the Law was given thru Moses.

lol what difference does that make?!!! Incest is either right or wrong. What are you saying? It's fine with God one day but totally bad the next? Doesn't sound like a consistent perfect God there to me!

 

[Scott Downey]

You can as easily argue against the literal reality of Noah, and his wife having 3 sons and their 3 wives as being a very inbred family relationships and possibly against the Law, but even then there was not the Law having been given, not yet.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Bible is chock full of problems, inconsistencies and contradictions if you try to read it literally. It's an exercise in futilty and self-denial imo.

Well then why believe any of it? What your doing is picking and choosing what is real, and what is fake news.

 

[Scott Downey]

Adam and Eve had both sons and daughters (Gen. 5:4). Because there were no human beings except those born of Adam and Eve, sibling marriages were a necessity. St. Augustine says,

As, therefore, the human race, subsequently to the first marriage of the man who was made of dust, and his wife who was made out of his side, required the union of males and females in order that it might multiply, and as there were no human beings except those who had been born of these two, men took their sisters for wives,—an act which was as certainly dictated by necessity in these ancient days as afterwards it was condemned by the prohibitions of religion . . . and though it was quite allowable in the earliest ages of the human race to marry one’s sister, it is now abhorred as a thing which no circumstances could justify. (The City of God XV.16)

This was never understood as a problem for the church. and their genetics were pure and not degraded like today.
Eve was the mother of all living. so everything came from those 2 people. God made the human race of all nations in Acts 17, it says from one blood.

 

[Lapidem]

I will say again, much of the Bible is not literal. Your choice if you want to remain blind and take the literal interpretation. Genesis is not talking about thee creation of the universe or humans. It's talking allegorically about something else. I'll leave you to your musings.

 

[Taken]

If God knows that you will choose option A in advance of that choice then very clearly you can not choose option B or C. If you did then God would be proven fallible, not perfect, not omniscient.

It really doesn't matter much how or why God can determine our choices in advance, the problem it gives us is that what we think are choices, can not be choices because the outcome is already determined, because God knows the result already. This is Predeterminism. No free will.

You have confused Your Freewill with Gods Knowledge.

God knowing WHAT choices YOU will choose, has nothing to do with YOU knowing WHAT choices you will choose BEFORE YOU even gain Knowledge of Choices to consider.

God made Preparations for Everything He Created and Made.
Don’t you?

 

[Taken]

I will say again, much of the Bible is not literal. Your choice if you want to remain blind and take the literal interpretation. Genesis is not talking about thee creation of the universe or humans. It's talking allegorically about something else. I'll leave you to your musings.

Gen.1​

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.​

If Heaven and Earth is not literal....what is the “allegory “ something else you are talking about? And your verification Source ?

 

[Adam]

God's omniscience doesn't negate free will because your consciousness comes from God Himself. You are free to act however you wish, but because God knows Himself, He knows how you will act. Everything, matter, consciousness, etc. exists within the mind of God, so nothing is unpredictable to Him.

If someone is reading a book, the characters cannot suddenly start acting contrary to their own established nature, there is a logic behind their actions, and you, the reader, are the judge of it. You judge them by putting yourself in their perspective and suppressing your own meta knowledge to look at the world as the characters see it. You would never expect Luke Skywalker to bow down and serve Darth Vader because that defies the logic of the character. You understand that if you were Luke Skywalker, with his ideals and ordeals, you would never accept that bargain, even if you are a total scumbag in real life and would totally do it yourself.