An Omniscient God Negates Free Will

[Adam]

You are using a scientific notion of the beginnings of the universe that is still being disputed amongst scientists who research cosmology. Why would you use a old scientific concept like the singular event of the big-bang to convince me that God's plan will crunch everything down to it's original state, making everything one. I never thought that was the case when I was being taught the theory of the big-bang in school. Because I couldn't understand how a singularity could expand outside an outside-less environment (My thinking was that the singularity would be our universe) that the universe was always here.

The traits of God are taken to be: omnipotence (absolute power), benevolence (absolute love) and omniscience (absolute knowledge). These three traits are actually in fact the same trait, because with ultimate knowledge comes ultimate power and ultimate understanding. The lack of any one of these things is a deficiency born out of ignorance. Once a man has elevated his perspective, he cannot go back to the ignorance he left behind, he will always progress in some form towards gaining wisdom and power. Because the soul exists forever, it can evolve forever. Inevitably, everything will achieve ultimate understanding, and thus "submission" to God (1 Corinthians 15). They will no longer be a separate being with a separate will.

So, take for example the classical understanding of the trinity, you have 3 entities (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) which are in fact the same entity, because any being which has omniscience will essentially be God and will have the same mind as God.

So the ultimate fate of all things will be, to come by either benevolence or knowledge of sin (IE pain and repentence), to this unity which I spoke of.

 

[Adam]

So for example, in the German myth, Odin, god of wisdom, fights against Fenrir, a beast driven wild by a hunger that can never be sated. Fenrir even eats the sun and moon and still is not satisfied. However, by feeding the beast wisdom, its frenzied nature is abated and it can finally be destroyed. When there is no more wisdom to be gained, there is no more carnality. Without wisdom and ignorance held in conflict, there is simply a realm of pure peace, which is Baldr's realm.

Or another way of looking at things is that disparity is the engine which creates motion. Heat flows into cold, mass flows into vacuum, etc. Each thing reaches a state of equilibrium where it finds peace. However, in this state of supreme peace, there is no motion, so creation of new disparity (the man and woman taken out of the tree) is the beginning of the new cycle.

 

[Adam]

And, to clarify one thing - do I believe Odin will be swallowed by Fenrir? No, it is a metaphor, which I use to illustrate the idea that civilizations throughout history have had the same concept, just seen through a different cultural lens. Do I believe that God is an energy field? No, neither do I believe that God has a physical body, but that the physical is a structure built within the mind of God, and that the physical contains only a shadow of what is real. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face.

However, like the tower of Babel, many people have similar ideas and philosophies, but because we can't communicate properly, things fall apart. So based on the physical idea of energy, and of consciousness coming from energy - I use this to illustrate the idea of that underlying energy field being the necessary source of all consciousness. So - even proponents of a purely physical existence must admit the existence of the unity of all things and of a God.

 

[Lapidem]

Teachers shouldn’t do people’s thinking for them. Teachers should teach people to think for themselves.

Yes this, exactly

 

[Lapidem]

On the one hand Jesus said don't call yourselves Rabbi (teacher)-
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers." (Matt 23:8)
But on the other hand he tells them to teach-
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations...teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” (Matt 19:20)
So in context it's what I said earlier, namely Jesus wanted people to spread the word purely and simply without any organised razzmatazz or lofty titles..

The passage Mattheus cited is clearly saying that no-one should consider themselves the actual teacher as there can only be one teacher which is God (I'm not agreeing with this just explaining the obvious meaning of the literal interpretation). The passage basically says that everyone should be humble and know that there is only one Teacher. Thus the disciples were told to go out and spread the doctrine but doing so in no way makes them the Teacher, they simply passed on the teachings. They were really just messengers.

 

[Lapidem]

Yes, and that's fine as long as they spread the word simply and clearly without putting their own spin on it, but sadly most denominations, cults and sects DO put their own spin on it and are a disgrace to Christianity, they're "spiritual perverts"..-
"If anyone preaches a perverted gospel they're accursed" (Galatians 1:6-9)
"..stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work.." (1 Tim 1:3-4)

This is dangerous pious nonsense Dropship. You have your own interpretation of what constitutes "the word" and so too do others. Calling them "perverts" exposes an immaturity and lack of humility. Everyone is on a spiritual journey and will find their way in their own time and route. Pride comes before a fall.

 

[Dropship]

...Everyone is on a spiritual journey and will find their way in their own time and route...

Mate, you list your belief as "Other Faith" so don't be shy, tell us what it is so we can analyse and dissect it.
As for "spiritual journeys", true Christians aren't journeying anywhere, they've already arrived, they've knocked on Jesus's door and he said "Come on in, the kettles on"..

 

[Lapidem]

Mate, you list your belief as "Other Faith" so don't be shy, tell us what it is so we can analyse and dissect it.
As for "spiritual journeys", true Christians aren't journeying anywhere, they've already arrived, they've knocked on Jesus's door and he said "Come on in, the kettles on"..

Nope you're wrong, badly wrong. Jesus gave a stark warning that if you don't EAT of the flesh and DRINK of the blood then you literally have no life in you.

If you take those works literally then you're an idiot.
If you take those words allegorically using the interpretation of mainstream religion to be the communion where you eat and drink something that actually isn't anything special then you are deluding yourself.
If you ignore Jesus's warning completely then you are simply dead, destined to perish and be recycled again.

Jesus was talking about the White and Red stones, aka as the Elixirs Of Life which he mentions repeatedly in the Bible and which the Bible talks about in numerous passages. I'm afraid you very much DO have to eat/drink the white and red elixirs to have life in you for it is those elixirs that contain the vital life energy that your body so badly needs to be able to function properly. Life energy that you gain very little of from ordinary food and drink and the lack of which will eventually kill your current human form.

You've been hoodwinked. You've been told that all you had to do was whistle a quick prayer to welcome Jesus into your heart and life and magically everything is Ok, you suddenly have immortal life through that prayer. You've been had. The Bible tells us otherwise. Jesus tells us otherwise. You have to EAT and DRINK as per his warnings. The problem you have is you don't have the white and red elixirs. There is therefore no life in you. The clock is ticking. To get to where you need to be you need the humility to contemplate that you have been duped by mainstream religion, to be able to admit that you were wrong and have been a tad silly, and then start your earnest search for the tree of life. Your religious indoctrination will make you immediately put up a wall, an artificial defence that simply can't cope with the mere possibility that you might have been deceived by the great deceiver. As far as the ego is concerned you're going to be ok, your place in Heaven is assured, your immortality is sorted, just by doing nothing at all, just by uttering a few words! You've been sold a pup. That could only ever happen because you were in a vulnerable state and were exploited. I was the same. I overcame my indoctrination and broke free. I now see and understand what Jesus was saying and warning us about. Millions upon millions of indoctrinated humans are going to die and be recycled. The clever lies have seen to that. People have taken spoon-fed cosy doctrine instead of confronting the harsher truth. The search is a difficult one. Most won't find the prize at the end of it. But if you're not even on the path searching, you will most assuredly perish.

John 6: 53
"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Revelation 2:17
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Song Of Solomon 5: 10
"My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand."
His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven."


Do you have eyes to see yet or will you remain locked in the spell?

 

[Adam]

Nope you're wrong, badly wrong. Jesus gave a stark warning that if you don't EAT of the flesh and DRINK of the blood then you literally have no life in you.

If you take those works literally then you're an idiot.
If you take those words allegorically using the interpretation of mainstream religion to be the communion where you eat and drink something that actually isn't anything special then you are deluding yourself.
If you ignore Jesus's warning completely then you are simply dead, destined to perish and be recycled again.

Jesus was talking about the White and Red stones, aka as the Elixirs Of Life which he mentions repeatedly in the Bible and which the Bible talks about in numerous passages. I'm afraid you very much DO have to eat/drink the white and red elixirs to have life in you for it is those elixirs that contain the vital life energy that your body so badly needs to be able to function properly. Life energy that you gain very little of from ordinary food and drink and the lack of which will eventually kill your current human form.

You've been hoodwinked. You've been told that all you had to do was whistle a quick prayer to welcome Jesus into your heart and life and magically everything is Ok, you suddenly have immortal life through that prayer. You've been had. The Bible tells us otherwise. Jesus tells us otherwise. You have to EAT and DRINK as per his warnings. The problem you have is you don't have the white and red elixirs. There is therefore no life in you. The clock is ticking. To get to where you need to be you need the humility to contemplate that you have been duped by mainstream religion, to be able to admit that you were wrong and have been a tad silly, and then start your earnest search for the tree of life. Your religious indoctrination will make you immediately put up a wall, an artificial defence that simply can't cope with the mere possibility that you might have been deceived by the great deceiver. As far as the ego is concerned you're going to be ok, your place in Heaven is assured, your immortality is sorted, just by doing nothing at all, just by uttering a few words! You've been sold a pup. That could only ever happen because you were in a vulnerable state and were exploited. I was the same. I overcame my indoctrination and broke free. I now see and understand what Jesus was saying and warning us about. Millions upon millions of indoctrinated humans are going to die and be recycled. The clever lies have seen to that. People have taken spoon-fed cosy doctrine instead of confronting the harsher truth. The search is a difficult one. Most won't find the prize at the end of it. But if you're not even on the path searching, you will most assuredly perish.

John 6: 53
"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Revelation 2:17
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Song Of Solomon 5: 10
"My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand."
His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven."


Do you have eyes to see yet or will you remain locked in the spell?

You will have to tell us what the elixir and the stones are then.

My interpretations:

Eating flesh/drinking blood = theophagy, taking divine essence into yourself. Scripture (from wit): "One does not live on bread alone but on every word from the mouth of God". The divine essence is wisdom, Jesus' teachings. Or in other words, you are what you eat. Practice divine wisdom as received to become more like the divine.

White stone with a new name which only you know = ressurection. Scripture (from wit): "your sins are red as scarlet but will be made white as snow" - given a new 'stone' AKA body without sins (white), and a new name (a new relationship with God). Basically, a fresh start.

Hidden Manna = as above, manna is food from heaven; it means to be given secret wisdom

Song of Solomon: I have no commentary for this, I cannot interpret it

 

[Dropship]

Nope you're wrong, badly wrong...You've been hoodwinked..I was the same...I overcame my indoctrination and broke free...

Wow mate, I ask you again- what exactly is this "Other Faith" of yours?
Incidentally, I've never been indoctrinated by any organised religion because I rejected them all many years ago and am non-denominational because we don't need them to do our thinking for us..

 

[Lapidem]

You will have to tell us what the elixir and the stones are then.

You read that in any of 1000 works of the sages and philosophers going back to the 1600s. They are all written equally cryptically and allegorically so that only those with eyes to see could understand them. That's why the search and journey is such a difficult one.

Here's a bunch of texts you can look at as a "starter for ten". You're unlikely however to make head nor tail of them and your programming will want you to dismiss them out of hand as esoteric mysticism.



You will find many of these here:

Western Esoteric Texts

Esoteric and Occult texts at sacred-texts.com

www.sacred-texts.com

Something to note as you start this journey. You do not need to believe that such a thing as the Elixir Of Life exists or the "Stone", whatever you wish to call it. What is initially most important is to just get a basic understanding from these works what the important terminology is that the philosophers use. You will read many times of male and female principles, of their association with silver and gold, you will read of the colours that are seen when the Elixir is being created, notably White, Red and Black, you will here allegorical terms like Raven and Crow used for Black, they represent the black stage of decomposition, decay, when the substance rots and is reduced back to its prima material. You will hear allegorical terms like green lions and grey wolves. This much is probably enough to begin with. It's hard work and unless your eyes are opened the message of the texts will be concealed from you. But know that the order of the Great Work (Magnum Opus) sees the substance go from White to Black to White again (White Stone) and then to crimson red (Red Stone). According to the texts the White Stone provides healing and the Red Stone provides long life/immortality.

Once you been through a number of these works and seen that basic structure you can revisit passages of the Bible and see that exactly the same allegorical terminology is used there. There's no question about it. That's when you suddenly realise what the Bible was about, why it was written as it was and what the real message is. So when Jesus talks about eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood he is using the same terminology. The same colours that relate to the Stones, white and red. The Song Of Solomon passage I cited above highlights all 3 colour stages that appear in the Great Work, White Red and Black and uses the same allegorical terminology for black:

"My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand."
His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven."

There is absolutely no doubt that this passage is talking about the Stone and the 3 colour stages seen during its creation. The fact that it refers to the "Raven" is the biggest clue. Think also about the story of Noah and the Ark which is also allegorical. The White dove and the Black crow, again just more references to the Stone. This secret runs through the Bible like a gold seam in the ground.

My interpretations:

Eating flesh/drinking blood = theophagy, taking divine essence into yourself. Scripture (from wit): "One does not live on bread alone but on every word from the mouth of God". The divine essence is wisdom, Jesus' teachings. Or in other words, you are what you eat. Practice divine wisdom as received to become more like the divine.

The full passage highlights what Jesus just endured:

"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Many people are aware of the "Survival Rule of 3".

The rule says that you can survive:

• 3 minutes without air
• 3 hours without shelter
• 3 days without water
• 3 weeks without food

So just how did you think that Jesus, the man, was able to survive 40 nights and days in the wilderness with nothing to eat let alone drink?! He managed it because he had the Stone. The Elixir. It provides all the real energy the body needs to function properly and thus you don't need to take that energy from food or water or from the air you breathe or from the sun. The sensation of hunger however is a physical thing that occurs when you have no physical substance in your belly so whilst his body was full of energy and in perfect shape, he nevertheless felt the pangs of hunger through not having filled his belly. In this allegorical passage the "Devil" asks Jesus to turn his Stone into something else. Bread. Had he done so he would have just had ordinary food and not the life saving Elixir so of course he rejected the "Devil's" suggestion. It is true that man can not live on bread alone, I,e, from basic food and drink because those things only provide tiny amounts of the life energy we need. Many foods don't have any of it at all and all we do when we eat them is satisfy the stomach hunger pangs. What we need to live properly, as we were designed to do, is the Stone. Only that can give us the quantities of this life energy our bodies need to function properly. All this stuff in the Bible is allegorical. Even the term Christ is oft used allegorically to represent the Stone or this life essence we all need.

White stone with a new name which only you know = ressurection. Scripture (from wit): "your sins are red as scarlet but will be made white as snow" - given a new 'stone' AKA body without sins (white), and a new name (a new relationship with God). Basically, a fresh start.

Not how I see it. Any time you see white and red mentioned you should immediately think of the Stone. It gets underpinned if you also see references to Black (Crow or Raven) and references to silver and gold (the female and male principles) that are essential to creating the Stone. In the passages you refer to there in Chronicles the whole thing is allegorically talking about the purification stages of making the Stone. Probably the most important aspects of the whole work because if there's the slightest impurity in your substance in the glass flask the whole work will be ruined. So reference to "sins" means these impurities.

"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water"

25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

The above is very clearly alluding to the purification process in Alchemy during the creation of the Stone. Note the references to metals which the Stone is also associated with. Silver and tin. The Stone is said to allow you to transmute base metals (like tin) into precious metals (like silver). All the clues and key terminology is there for those with eyes to see it.

Hidden Manna = as above, manna is food from heaven; it means to be given secret wisdom

Hidden Manna is just another name for the Stone. The secret wisdom is knowing what the Stone is, how to use it, how to make it, how to multiply the quantity of it that you have so you never run out of it. The story of the feeding of the five thousand is an allegorical tale relating to how the 2 Stones (white and red) can be "projected" and multiplied. You will read about this in those philosophical texts I listed.

Song of Solomon: I have no commentary for this, I cannot interpret it

And that's simply because the colours white, red and black have up to this point had no significance for you. Now I have told you what they mean and if you read those philosophical texts to confirm it, you will instantly recognise anything that mentions white, red and black in the future. Especially if there is mention of ravens or crows.

 

[Adam]

Something to note as you start this journey. You do not need to believe that such a thing as the Elixir Of Life exists or the "Stone", whatever you wish to call it. What is initially most important is to just get a basic understanding from these works what the important terminology is that the philosophers use. You will read many times of male and female principles, of their association with silver and gold,

Even if what you are saying is true, it will take a lot to convince me that "elixir" or "stone" are physical objects or physical properties, instead of some sort of closely guarded spiritual metaphor.

John 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Classical Greek philosophers like Plato and early Christian philosophers took gold and silver to mean the soul. One church father said that God is the lake of fire (the one that torments sinners), which refines away the worldly nature of men to reveal the gold and silver of the soul.

It bears mentioning that both Plato and the early Church believed in reincarnation. Reincarnation is the means by which God purifies sinners.

you will read of the colours that are seen when the Elixir is being created, notably White, Red and Black, you will here allegorical terms like Raven and Crow used for Black, they represent the black stage of decomposition, decay, when the substance rots and is reduced back to its prima material. You will hear allegorical terms like green lions and grey wolves. This much is probably enough to begin with. It's hard work and unless your eyes are opened the message of the texts will be concealed from you. But know that the order of the Great Work (Magnum Opus) sees the substance go from White to Black to White again (White Stone)

the stone (possible metaphor for body) going from white to black to white seems like a metaphor for reincarnation, dying, decaying, and being reborn

and then to crimson red (Red Stone). According to the texts the White Stone provides healing and the Red Stone provides long life/immortality.

if black = death
and white = healing
then this once again supports the hypothesis of reincarnation

My instinct is that red likely represents enlightenment, though in Biblical symbolism, red represents something else, it represents sin (AKA error). This may be oddly quite appropriate, and represent a divergence of viewpoints, because, as I mentioned before, a sorceror sees enlightenment (awakening to the spiritual) as a means to control the physical. Like trading the kingdom for a loaf of bread. Awakening to the spiritual should cause one to serve the spiritual and forsake the physical.

Mark 8
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Many people are aware of the "Survival Rule of 3".

The rule says that you can survive:

• 3 minutes without air
• 3 hours without shelter
• 3 days without water
• 3 weeks without food

So just how did you think that Jesus, the man, was able to survive 40 nights and days in the wilderness with nothing to eat let alone drink?! He managed it because he had the Stone. The Elixir. It provides all the real energy the body needs to function properly and thus you don't need to take that energy from food or water or from the air you breathe or from the sun. The sensation of hunger however is a physical thing that occurs when you have no physical substance in your belly so whilst his body was full of energy and in perfect shape, he nevertheless felt the pangs of hunger through not having filled his belly. In this allegorical passage the "Devil" asks Jesus to turn his Stone into something else. Bread. Had he done so he would have just had ordinary food and not the life saving Elixir so of course he rejected the "Devil's" suggestion. It is true that man can not live on bread alone, I,e, from basic food and drink because those things only provide tiny amounts of the life energy we need. Many foods don't have any of it at all and all we do when we eat them is satisfy the stomach hunger pangs. What we need to live properly, as we were designed to do, is the Stone. Only that can give us the quantities of this life energy our bodies need to function properly. All this stuff in the Bible is allegorical. Even the term Christ is oft used allegorically to represent the Stone or this life essence we all need.

Fasting doesn't always mean no food and water. Typically, it means no food, but water is permissable. Sometimes (especially in long fasts), some food is permissable (such as perhaps only a single meal a day), or perhaps only a certain dish is shunned (such as meat and alcohol and other luxuries).

Given Jesus being in the desert for 40 days, my interpretation is:
-Jesus was told to go there to await word from God. This hearkens to Moses in the desert.
-Jesus was only eating what was provided by God, like the Israelites did in the desert - IE he could eat whatever he found, but nothing else
-He was tempted to abuse his power over miracles, which would have, in all likelihood, caused him to lose his powers completely and revert to being a normal person incapable of miracles

For his third temptation, he was tempted to throw himself off a cliff to confirm to himself that he was the messiah. Of course, as Jesus said in a later sermon, you can only perform a miracle if you have no doubt in your heart. If Jesus had to test this, he would have proven he had doubt, and would have died.

Not how I see it. Any time you see white and red mentioned you should immediately think of the Stone. It gets underpinned if you also see references to Black (Crow or Raven) and references to silver and gold (the female and male principles) that are essential to creating the Stone. In the passages you refer to there in Chronicles the whole thing is allegorically talking about the purification stages of making the Stone.

Chronicles is referring to the purification of Man. In this case, he is even referring to a specific man: Adam. Adam was the first to acheieve perfection, reincarnating as David, and then again as Jesus.

Chronicles even reveals the next step, which is that all mankind will be purified. At which point God and Man will have become one.

Probably the most important aspects of the whole work because if there's the slightest impurity in your substance in the glass flask the whole work will be ruined. So reference to "sins" means these impurities.

As with Jesus, a soul is only purified if it is completely free of sins, which is only possible through God's work, spanning multiple (perhaps thousands) of lifetimes. As long as a soul has sin, it cannot return to the Father.

"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water"

25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

The above is very clearly alluding to the purification process in Alchemy during the creation of the Stone. Note the references to metals which the Stone is also associated with. Silver and tin. The Stone is said to allow you to transmute base metals (like tin) into precious metals (like silver). All the clues and key terminology is there for those with eyes to see it.

Proverbs 17:3
The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

And that's simply because the colours white, red and black have up to this point had no significance for you. Now I have told you what they mean and if you read those philosophical texts to confirm it, you will instantly recognise anything that mentions white, red and black in the future. Especially if there is mention of ravens or crows.

I agree that the Song of Solomon 5 must have a hidden meaning but alchemy and the principles of the Bible are very much at odds with eachother.

 

[Adam]

By Chronicles I mean Corinthians

 

[Adam]

Ah, I found the green lion. It is none other than Fenris. The green lion or Fenris, is the human body, the earthly nature. It is an animal. It devours the golden sun. This is also known as conception, the golden sun or soul enters the beast. The beast is insatiable in its desires, just go to the Addiction/Recovery forum to seem what I mean. Scripture says, "Thou shalt eat, but not be satisfied;". You have people who can't stop watching porn, can't stop going to McDonalds, etc. Hungers that are never satisfied, because they do not understand what it is they actually hunger for. The only thing that can satisfy Fenris' hunger is to eat Odin.

 

[Lapidem]

Even if what you are saying is true, it will take a lot to convince me that "elixir" or "stone" are physical objects or physical properties, instead of some sort of closely guarded spiritual metaphor.

In 2009/2010 there were literally 100s of people across the world all engaged in the alchemical Great Work. An internet forum was up and running where they all exchanged knowledge and results of their experiments. They posted up photos of the equipment they used for the first and second parts of the work. Essentially flasks and water baths and the like. You could see the physical substances being used in the flasks. You could see the salt appearing after calcination of the substance. You could see the processes working in accordance with the instructions in the various texts of the philosophers and the sages. The right things were happening in the flasks, the right colours were being seen. None of this proves that the Stone actually exists but it did show that the various texts and treatises were being truthful about the processes they described. The Great Work takes 2-3 years to complete so I don't know if anyone got that far. The website was mysteriously taken down in 2011 never to be seen again.

Classical Greek philosophers like Plato and early Christian philosophers took gold and silver to mean the soul. One church father said that God is the lake of fire (the one that torments sinners), which refines away the worldly nature of men to reveal the gold and silver of the soul.

Gold and silver have been metaphors for many things. In alchemy many terms used have multiple meanings which makes understanding the texts quite difficult. The colour black, in alchemy most definitely pertains to death and decay and decomposition. This process is an absolute essential of the Great Work. The Stone can not be attained without first reducing the initial substance to it's "prima material". You have to destroy the first thing back to its universal Lego building blocks in order that it can be remade into something else. The Bible iterates this vital process in Jesus's parable of the ear of corn. Unless it fall to the ground and die no new thing can be created but if it does decay and decompose many new fruits will be born etc.

then this once again supports the hypothesis of reincarnation

Everything is in a constant cycle of growth followed by decay and reduction back to prima material where it then gets remade into something else. We are all of us caught in that endless cycle being part of that universe ourselves. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed in this universe. That's the Law Of Conservation. All you can do is endlessly change one form of energy into another. So yes, reincarnation is an absolute given. We have no choice in the matter. However . . . . given access to the right type of energy and the right quantity of energy we can use it to maintain our current form indefinitely if that's the form we want to keep. We only decay and "die" because we don't have access to that energy.

My instinct is that red likely represents enlightenment, though in Biblical symbolism, red represents something else, it represents sin (AKA error).

The two are inextricably linked I would say. We are surely a mix of spiritual and physical and the universe maintains that balance. What we think of as death is simply the detachment of the spiritual life essence from our body and its reinsertion into a new body.

Mark 8
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

This passage is a tricky one. It is written in the various works that the Stone would significantly change a person as it's nature, being something that is perfect, has the tendency to perfect that which it comes into contact with. Hence it is expected that someone who digests the Stone will become a pure specimen, will be rid of all ailments and disease (via your own immune system which is now supercharged) and will gain full function of the brain. The latter likely means that spiritually we would become very aware and may even begin to experience new senses and abilities like telepathy, or even be able to manifest physical things from the power of will alone. In this sense then, using the Stone certainly means your old self would "die" or disappear as it would be purified. You'd be a different person really. In losing that past self, you nevertheless save yourself because you now have very long life or even immortality on your human form. If you hold onto your current self, and thus don't have the Stone then undoubtedly you will "die" and be recycled by the universe into the next form.

Fasting doesn't always mean no food and water. Typically, it means no food, but water is permissable. Sometimes (especially in long fasts), some food is permissable (such as perhaps only a single meal a day), or perhaps only a certain dish is shunned (such as meat and alcohol and other luxuries).

Kind of irrelevant because the passage quoted clearly says that Jesus ate nothing. KJV

Chronicles is referring to the purification of Man. In this case, he is even referring to a specific man: Adam. Adam was the first to acheieve perfection, reincarnating as David, and then again as Jesus.

Chronicles even reveals the next step, which is that all mankind will be purified. At which point God and Man will have become one.

This might simply be allegorical descriptions of the alchemical processes. In the Great Work the purification part is an iterative process. You begin with an initial substance and you separate it into its male and female principles through a gentle distillation. Then each separate part is purified by repeated washings and calcinations over and over until the substance is free from all impurities. Once done the 2 purified parts, male and female are reunited in a single flask and left to cohobate which is another long process involving the constant cycle of gentle warmth causing vapour to rise and then condense at the top of the flask (the "heavens") like dew and then fall back down as rain onto the substance in the bottom of the flask. This cycle goes on and on for many months. It's all largely treated in Genesis 2 such as here:

"for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground"

As with Jesus, a soul is only purified if it is completely free of sins, which is only possible through God's work, spanning multiple (perhaps thousands) of lifetimes. As long as a soul has sin, it cannot return to the Father.

Again I think this is a metaphor for the Great Work not the other way around. The whole work is ruined if the 2 parts, male or female have the tiniest impurity present. That's why the first part of the work is so important.

Proverbs 17:3
The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.

Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

You definitely have an allegorical Alchemy verse there. You need the first part of that Zechariah verse:

In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
“two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.(P)
9 This third I will put into the fire;(Q)
I will refine them like silver(R)
and test them like gold.(S)

The Great Work involves 3 separate things. Salt, Mercury and Sulphur. Mercury is not the liquid metal mercury but rather the special distillate from the first part of the work. The whole work actually uses only ONE thing, one substance but the first part of the work separates it out. One part of it is calcined by fire which removes its impurities and reveals hidden inside a pure salt which is impervious to fire. The other part is repeatedly washed and distilled to remove its impurities, that's the Mercury. In the second part of the Work the salt and mercury are put together in a sealed flask and subjected to a gentle heat (like incubation). This rots the substance which, starting off as white, will turn jet black as it decomposes. Hence "two thirds will be struck down and perish". They later become "silver" (the white Stone) and gold (the red Stone). The Bible is full of such passages all iterating these same alchemical processes of the Great Work.

I agree that the Song of Solomon 5 must have a hidden meaning but alchemy and the principles of the Bible are very much at odds with eachother.

I disagree. The Bible has alchemy running right through it. The principle message is that of the Stone.

 

[Lapidem]

Ah, I found the green lion. It is none other than Fenris. The green lion or Fenris, is the human body, the earthly nature. It is an animal. It devours the golden sun. This is also known as conception, the golden sun or soul enters the beast. The beast is insatiable in its desires, just go to the Addiction/Recovery forum to seem what I mean. Scripture says, "Thou shalt eat, but not be satisfied;". You have people who can't stop watching porn, can't stop going to McDonalds, etc. Hungers that are never satisfied, because they do not understand what it is they actually hunger for. The only thing that can satisfy Fenris' hunger is to eat Odin.

As I highlighted before, most terms used in alchemy have multiple meanings. Here one man's explanation of the green lion:

"The Green Lion, as it were, is a literal symbol of “Vitriol Of venus, ” a green dense sulphuric liquid (acid) that the alchemist identified as being capable of dissolving most any mineral except gold. This ability to eliminate “dross” earned the substance high regard for its value in the retort, and regarded as a sacred, therefore “Royal” substance. Once discovered, the idea was adopted by most in exoteric alchemy as a breakthrough that had led them to the doorstep of the elixir vitae (elixir of life), and ultimately the Lapis Philosophorum (Philosophers Stone). If you look at the images of the lion ATTEMPTING to devour the sun, you will typically see an expression on the face of the sun that is in some way mocking the effort, usually as though Sol was growing annoyed or becoming irritated but there is no indication that the lion is going to succeed. Yes, the lion is likewise an archetypal symbol of the sun itself, so therein we are confronted by a paradox. To the alchemist, the paradox identified critical procedures or information that was disguised within the art. In this case, the innate properties associated with the lion, which are certainly relevant to the question, have shown to have a great deal of variance cross-culturally, so those should be left to the seeker to determine for themselves, and those interpretations, undoubtedly should be based on context as well, but the green loin was, first and foremost a metaphor for Vitriol of Venus. I have studied most everything that Jung offered in his interpretations and comparisons in psychology and stand mostly in accord with his insights, but even among historical alchemists like Basil Valentine, Paracelsus, Aggrippa, ad infinitum, the lion, and many other iconic beasts or scenery depicted in alchemical art were subject to some variance of interpretation. One thing that is not in question is the green lion’s direct association with the chemical distillate, Vitriol of Venus… See, Treasure of Treasures for Alchemists (Paracelsus, 1659) or the works of Valentinus, Aggrippa, etc, or select occult works by Jon Dee, Elphias Levi, etc. I would also mention, in passing, that most serious scholars of alchemy regard the Rosecrucian founding texts (A Chymical Wedding, and subsequent interpretations) as no doubt relevant to the art (by proxy) but also as a text to be taken with a grain of salt and viewed with a somewhat critical eye, due to the suspicious nature of its origins and alleged authorship. My view is that a symbol, be it a glyph, talisman, sigil, or archetype, is only as relevant and useful in meaning as it is in the mind of the alchemist doing the work, but in cases where the symbol has a literal interpretation that is unquestionably universal, that should be where the true understanding of it should begin…"

 

[Adam]

Is it possible that either:

A) alchemy was an attempt to disguise heretical religious views from the church under the guise of chemistry, using coded language only known to a few

or perhaps more likely:

B) given the famous alchemist expression "as above, so below" (or in the Bible: "on Earth as it is in Heaven") they were attempting to use the physical principles of chemistry to divine spiritual insights? Therefore, while there may be physical chemicals involved in their studies, the ultimate product is one of spiritual enlightenment?

For example, if the substance gold on Earth, represents the masculine soul in Heaven, then the alchemist may be attempting to divine the properties of the soul by studying the chemical properties of gold?

 

[Lapidem]

Is it possible that either:

A) alchemy was an attempt to disguise heretical religious views from the church under the guise of chemistry, using coded language only known to a few

or perhaps more likely:

B) given the famous alchemist expression "as above, so below" (or in the Bible: "on Earth as it is in Heaven") they were attempting to use the physical principles of chemistry to divine spiritual insights? Therefore, while there may be physical chemicals involved in their studies, the ultimate product is one of spiritual enlightenment?

For example, if the substance gold on Earth, represents the masculine soul in Heaven, then the alchemist may be attempting to divine the properties of the soul by studying the chemical properties of gold?

Alchemy was the forerunner to modern chemistry. It was and still is a genuine science which people are still engaged in today.

There were and still are different streams of Alchemy. Physical alchemy was concerned with transmuting things and the ultimate goal of attaining the Philosopher's Stone. By the same token there was also spiritual alchemy which concerned itself with the same principles applied to the self, purifying oneself to become enlightened. The two are likely intertwined as I suspect that without the immense life energy of the physical Stone one can not transform the body to a state where enlightenment is possible.

As for the coded language and cryptic texts I firmly believe this was a necessity to record and conceal the secrets without others realising they were there. Those with this incredible knowledge would have been hunted down and likely murdered for it. Some would have been jealous and wanted it for themselves, others would still be locked into the ignorant dark ages and deemed such gnostics heretics and blasphemers in league with the devil and so on.

What is important to note imho is that this alchemical cryptic language is present in the Bible and in the Quran and in the Bhagavad Gita and in the works of Taoism and Rosicrucianism and just about everywhere. It's patently clear that this all sprang out from a central place in the world and spread outward to different countries and cultures just as religion did. I believe this was the true message behind it all. The real secret for mankind and how human life is supposed to be lived. The true meanings were only decipherable by those initiated into the mysteries. Everyone else who read the works regardless of religion, were surely duped as they would be taking all the texts literally leading to the most silly things like the universe being created in 7 days etc. The reality is that Genesis is talking about the Philosopher's Stone and the alchemical processes for creating it. Even saying this I very seriously doubt that the Bible as presented to us today is anything like the real original Bible or texts. Much will have been removed to prevent these secrets being available to a more modern society. Thankfully we have 1000s of texts, documents and treatises of the Philosophers spanning 100s of years that are still available to guide us. Doubtless some will consider all this blasphemy. It will not sit well with their well established belief systems and so defences will go up. But the simple fact remains that the Bible in numerous places, most definitely makes reference to the Philosopher's Stone and the processes for making it and the benefits it bestows to humans. It's all there hidden in plain sight for those with eyes to see. No question. That being the case we should be asking why mainstream religion like the Christian churches are NOT telling their flocks about it. Why are the real messages not being revealed to people and instead the false literal nonsense being peddled? Is the church simply ignorant of the secrets and cryptic/allegorical language (which frankly seems unlikely) or are they deliberately hiding it and steering people down dead end paths keeping us all in ignorance?

Really I don't know but I am hugely disappointed that I was never told about it in church and feel highly betrayed and duped. Just one reason why I walked away from conventional Christianity and began a proper search and journey of my own instead of foolishly and blindly accepting spoon-fed dogma.

 

[[email protected]]

I pose a set of simple and imo concrete logic that might inspire significant discussion among the membership.

An Omniscient (all-knowing) God by definition means that free will can not actually exist.

A person is presented with a Choice of A, B or C

But God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that option A is going to be the choice.


That being the case it MUST be impossible for option B and C to be chosen, for otherwise that would mean God was wrong, fallible and imperfect.

If B an C are not in fact possible options, then there was never a real choice to begin with. Hence, there is no free will because the result of all actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities.

This is a tricky argument for many Christians to face up to and they will frequently invoke the "Divine Default" saying "it just is" or "God just knows" without being able to quantify or rationally explain any of it.

Discuss

omniscience - "the quality of having or seeming to have unlimited knowledge" (Cambridge dictionary)

The problem with the original argument here is the assumption by the writer that a quality of Omniscience would negate free will.

One may respond to this by asking what proofs or EVIDENCE is offered that the quality of omniscience does, in fact, deny free will.

None is offered because those of us who have limited knowledge, meaning all of us, cannot by our nature discern whether the statement is true or not. Therefore the entire proposition begins with a false conjecture - a really badly phrased argument.

The next statement is also false - that "God knows, infallibly, unerringly with 100% certainty that some option is certain". It's false because of its own ILLOGIC. If, according to the argument, that God presents choices of A, B, or C is this not an example of an offered CHOICE? So I ask - if there isn't a choice, meaning free will to choose, then why would God offer choices in the first place? The question presented in this case is illogical and NEGATES the entire argument.

The writer of the first post is obviously unacquainted with the process of logic or how to argue for it or against it.
Where is Mr. Spock when we need him?

Let us continue anyway...

infallible - "incapable of error in doctrines touching faith or morals" (Merriam-Webster dictionary)

Again the writer of the 1st post trespasses upon the quicksand of illogic and ties his own argument in knots when he writes, "it must be impossible for options B or C to be chosen, for otherwise God would be wrong, fallible and imperfect"

We're picking at nits here, but we do so because that's the path the writer of the 1st post has 'chosen' for development of his ideas.

Omniscience is by common definition a quality of God. Infallibility is by definition a quality of HUMAN understanding.

For instance, the Pope would not consider himself to be infallible if he were married.

In the case of the Holy Father an outside source could disprove an official statement or Bull.....turning it into bovine excrement.
In the case of God there is NO outside source that can disprove anything God states - according to the aforementioned quality of omniscience. Therefore the second statement about divine infallibility is also illogical.
What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Here we go with the next statement: "there's no free will because the actions and choices are known to God before they happen and therefore all alternative choices are not actual possibilities."

Again we return to the unavoidable observation that humans don't have a real handle on omniscience because we have no proofs or evidence to prove it or its actions. One cannot shoot an arrow into the air and come close to hitting a target if one is BLIND. The statement concerning alternative choices is false simply because detailed human knowledge of divine omniscience is quite literally unknown. A human would have to BE omniscient to correctly SEE any quality of omniscience. Since no human possesses such a quality the supposition cannot even be expressed correctly. This is an example of circular logic which attempts to draw a straight line and ends up in the curves.
What have we been smoking?

The final statement is a cocky attempt to challenge Christians to participate in the same sort of convoluted pretentious illogic that the questioner has vomited upon these pages. He's puked upon our dinner table and is asking us to lap it up like dogs.

We cannot respond because we will not respond.
We will not respond because we have appropriated logic based upon choice and free will. Some of us try, though.
The author of this thread blows it off because he has no intention whatsoever of making a free will choice to consider the Biblical argument.

According to the LAW (of Moses) stated in Deuteronomy 30:19 humans HAVE been given a choice.
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Whether God is omniscient or not is a matter of human argument, limited understanding, definition, philosophical mumbo-jumbo and DOGMA.

WHAT IS TRUE and totally logical is that God is giving us, all of us, A CHOICE. The choice is to live by God's LAW and God's ways. The result of our choice will be either life or death. God has given us a CHOICE.

For this commandment I give you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. (Deuteronomy 30:11)

Contrary to what most churches teach, God's LAW is NOT impossible to keep. Can one live an entire day without stealing something or killing someone or lying to one's boss at work? It IS possible and everyone reading these words knows it. What is also possible is that one can CHOOSE to lie, cheat, steal and murder. The consequences are stated in the LAW both the law of God and the law of man.

What's being attempted here is either to prove God is unjust or that man is totally depraved. Neither is true because the LAW proves there's a choice offered by God to man.

God is not fair, but He IS just.

Fairness implies subjective conditions. Not all people live lives the same as all others - what we call fairness. Some are healthy and some are handicapped. Some are wise and others are fools. Some are normal and others are politicians.

Justice implies an objective unchangeable application of LAW to all. In other words, God throws a pair of dice out onto the earth. Sometimes the dice comes up snake eyes and sometimes it comes up something else. (see Matthew 13 and the parable of the sower)

God the omniscient mercifully creates situations to allow men, who so choose, to be self-blinded fools.

"This is the judgment, that LIGHT has come into the world, but men hated the light because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

This entire argument is based upon the idea that man can justify his own SIN and WICKEDNESS by declaring to the heavens above and hell beneath that "God made me do it (SIN)."

If God makes people SIN, why then would He die on the cross to pay the penalty for their evil choices?

There is something more going on here than self-justification, false doctrine and obtuse philosophy.

There IS a choice.

Choose wisely.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Lapidem]

omniscience - "the quality of having or seeming to have unlimited knowledge" (Cambridge dictionary)

The problem with the original argument here is the assumption by the writer that a quality of Omniscience would negate free will.

One may respond to this by asking what proofs or EVIDENCE is offered that the quality of omniscience does, in fact, deny free will.

None is offered because those of us who have limited knowledge, meaning all of us, cannot by our nature discern whether the statement is true or not. Therefore the entire proposition begins with a false conjecture - a really badly phrased argument.

I confess I gave up on this waffle about half way down. It seems your whole schtick here is to try and redefine what the term Omniscience means which I think puts pay to your entire spiel. Omniscience is all-knowing. Christianity maintains that God is all-knowing. To put it in simple terms there is nothing that he does not know. It's not a difficult term to understand nor does it need your attempted diversion to suggest there are different types of Omniscience. This is a Christian forum/website so the only type of Omniscience that is relevant is that which Christianity claims for its God. Here's the definition from Christianity.com:

What Does it Mean That God Is Omniscient?

God’s knowledge is unlimited. Knowing that God is omniscient should allow us to trust His will, His Word, and His timing. Though we don’t know all the answers, God does.

www.christianity.com

"When Christians say God is omniscient, they mean that God knows all things — the past, present, and future. God is the source of all knowledge. God also knows all the potentialities of any situation. God knows every person’s thoughts — even before they think it."

You can read the rest of the article at your leisure.

We can cut to the chase pretty simply here. The Christian God is either Omniscient or he is not. Christianity claims that he is and claim it in the way stated above. i.e. that God knows all things even before they happen, past, present and future.

Now whether you accept that is totally irrelevant. It IS what Christianity claims. This isn't a thread discussing what Christianity claims. It begins from the position that Christianity DOES claim that its God is all-knowing, period.

On that basis my opening gambit stands. If everything can be known in advance of it happening then everything is predetermined. If an Omniscient God knows you are going to make choice C from A, B or C and that God is perfect and incapable of error, then you can not choose anything but C. Options A and B are therefore illusions. False options. Not really options at all. It's really this simple.

If, according to the argument, that God presents choices of A, B, or C is this not an example of an offered CHOICE?

No it is NOT an offered choice. It may appear to a human to be a choice but if God already knows what the outcome will be it can not be a true choice at all. It is what stage magicians refer to as Hobson's choice, the kind of choice where a magician says "pick a card" as if it were a free choice but the reality is that he knows exactly which card you are going to pick because the whole thing has been set up.

The only way anyone can ever have a totally free choice is:

1. If absolutely no-one can predict the outcome in advance with 100% certainty
2. If there are no adverse consequences to any of the choices that force you to pick one of the other choices

So the fact that the Christian is alleged to be Omniscient and thus knows all our decisions before they are made means that they are not real decisions/choices at all. Humans simply don't understand the aspects of the set up environment and so to them it appears to be free choice.