And...God didn't say...

[Helen]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)

Most of us have been taught and think that eternal torment will engulf the vast majority of mankind, nearly all of Adam and Eve’s descendents, …..yet here’s a Father, God, who didn’t warn his children of the potential of what might befall them.

What would you think of a father who told his young child not to ride his bike in the street, and if he did, he would get a spanking. Yet suppose he also planned to roast him over a roaring fire for fifty years after he spanked him, …. you think him a just father for not warning his child?

Can you think of an apology or a defense for the father? Yet to Adam and Eve, the Father of all mankind failed to mention a much greater punishment than the death they would die the day they ate of the forbidden tree. Was this just a slip of the mind on God’s part, to not mention at all the interminable terrible woes that lay ahead for the vast majority of their descendants?

No, God announced to them a tangible present punishment the very day they committed the sin: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” They found that the wages of sin was death.

The same is true about Cain and Abel, a case of murder of a brother.
Surely, we would think that God might roll out the threat of eternal torment that Cain was to receive as a warning to all future generations. In the whole account, there’s not a hint, not a single word on the subject. Instead, Cain is told, “And now art thou cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” Again, Cain received an immediate, tangible physical punishment administered, with absolutely no warning of future eternal torment. Like Adam, Cain heard none of the dire warnings preached from pulpits of the fiery wrath of God, tormenting his soul throughout eternity.

In Gen. 4:15, God said, “Therefore, whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold.” So if, with no warning, Cain was going to receive eternal fiery torment, would those who killed him receive seven times the endless fiery torment?

 

[Stranger]

It will be interesting.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

When we read of Noah and the flood, God says that “every thought of man’s heart was only evil continually,” and that “the earth was filled with violence, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.”
If not before, wouldn’t this be the ideal time to reveal eternal torment ahead for nearly all inhabitants of the earth?
If any circumstances warranted such punishment, this would be the time, would it not? However, Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” didn’t threaten endless punishment to evildoers!
If warnings of such punishment serve to turn man aside from his evil way, surely this would have been the time to have revealed it, but there’s not one whisper of it.
Instead, they were destroyed by the flood, a physical, tangible punishment for their sin, with absolutely no warning of endless torment.
Nor was there such a warning when mankind inhabited the earth again after the flood. One word from God might have set the world on an entirely different course. Surprisingly no such word was given.

 

[APAK]

When we read of Noah and the flood, God says that “every thought of man’s heart was only evil continually,” and that “the earth was filled with violence, and all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.”
If not before, wouldn’t this be the ideal time to reveal eternal torment ahead for nearly all inhabitants of the earth?
If any circumstances warranted such punishment, this would be the time, would it not? However, Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” didn’t threaten endless punishment to evildoers!
If warnings of such punishment serve to turn man aside from his evil way, surely this would have been the time to have revealed it, but there’s not one whisper of it.
Instead, they were destroyed by the flood, a physical, tangible punishment for their sin, with absolutely no warning of endless torment.
Nor was there such a warning when mankind inhabited the earth again after the flood. One word from God might have set the world on an entirely different course. Surprisingly no such word was given.

ByGrace:

You know the ‘Lake of Fire’ or Hell, reminds me of a place of purification to restoration, not endless torment. This is the place and state for judgement of God’s rebels or unrestored ones.

A place and state where the heart is cleansed over time.

The word Greek ‘theion’ means brimstone = Sulphur + fire - used for purification.

We see the analogy of a furnace plant where the impurities within a material are separated and discarded.

The ‘smoke’ ascended (not really ‘forever’) until the process was completed completely, in full view of Christ and the angels.

God’ theme throughout his words are for purification and restoration of all creation.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

are you suggesting Purgatory here?

The ‘smoke’ ascended (not really ‘forever’)

how do you interpret "eternally" there, in that case?

 

[APAK]

are you suggesting Purgatory here?
how do you interpret "eternally" there, in that case?

bbyrd009:
First..no, there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here

Second, the words 'everlasting' or 'forever and ever' or 'eternal' are poor English translations...they mean once the process of purification is started it does not stop until it is completely finished...there is an end. Like a fire will burn itself out and dies out when all it can consume all that it can consumed and is destroyed.

(Rev 20:10) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Mat 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
(Mat 25:46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ALL ESV)

The spirit and it vessel of a person is completed purified and its previous identity is lost, purged or erased forever. The spirit is then returned to God, fully restored and pure.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

First..no, there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here

you sound awful sure

 

[Windmillcharge]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

However, Noah, “a preacher of righteousness,” didn’t threaten endless punishment to evildoers!
If warnings of such punishment serve to turn man aside from his evil way, surely this would have been the time to have revealed it, but there’s not one whisper of it.

Not everything that happens is recorded in the bible. Adam named the animals, yet we are not told whether he found any funny or frightening.
Noah built an Ark, we are not told how, or whether he hired the Achme Ark Assemblers to do the job for him.

Equaly we are not told how much Adam was told by God about the consquences of disobedience, nor are we told what subjects Noah preached on.

What is clear he warned that there was going to be a flood and only his family believed him.

Today people are being warned about the danger of Hell and they treat the subject as a joke.

 

[Helen]

In the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, the physical destruction of the cities and their inhabitants, with not even a rumour of endless future torment that we probably think they unknowingly faced.
What would we think if our government passed a new law with a huge fine as the punishment, but when a guilty party was found, he paid the fine, but also had to serve endless torment that the citizens had no warning of?
What kind of judge explains the law and known penalty, while carefully concealing a much more awful penalty? What would the penalty of a few thousand dollars matter in a case where he was also going to be tormented horribly and endlessly? Yet the popular concept is that the Sodomites were sent into such a judgment.

We could go through the accounts of the builders of the tower of Babel, the destruction of Pharaoh and his armies, and Lot’s wife, yet we would notice the same thing. All these received a temporal physical punishment, with no mention of an infinitely greater torturous punishment awaiting them in the future.

Was this teaching deliberately excluded from the record, or did it never belong? We know that it isn’t there.
Neither the word gehenna nor the concept of endless torment was given in the millennia before the giving of the Law of Moses. From the creation to Mt. Sinai, there was simply no insinuation of it in the entirety of human history up to that time. God never had a plan of inflicting such dreadful torment on the people of his own creation.

 

[bbyrd009]

amen, of course not; that all comes via "scribes," and this is what happens when you let religious ppl interpret for you

Today people are being warned about the danger of Hell and they treat the subject as a joke.

too bad the warners don't take ol' Noah's example, huh; if you just Quote the passage of Noah preaching it all becomes clear.

"dying you will die" seems like a pretty good synopsis of the consequences, i guess

 

[DPMartin]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)

Most of us have been taught and think that eternal torment will engulf the vast majority of mankind, nearly all of Adam and Eve’s descendents, …..yet here’s a Father, God, who didn’t warn his children of the potential of what might befall them.

What would you think of a father who told his young child not to ride his bike in the street, and if he did, he would get a spanking. Yet suppose he also planned to roast him over a roaring fire for fifty years after he spanked him, …. you think him a just father for not warning his child?

Can you think of an apology or a defense for the father? Yet to Adam and Eve, the Father of all mankind failed to mention a much greater punishment than the death they would die the day they ate of the forbidden tree. Was this just a slip of the mind on God’s part, to not mention at all the interminable terrible woes that lay ahead for the vast majority of their descendants?

No, God announced to them a tangible present punishment the very day they committed the sin: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” They found that the wages of sin was death.

The same is true about Cain and Abel, a case of murder of a brother.
Surely, we would think that God might roll out the threat of eternal torment that Cain was to receive as a warning to all future generations. In the whole account, there’s not a hint, not a single word on the subject. Instead, Cain is told, “And now art thou cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” Again, Cain received an immediate, tangible physical punishment administered, with absolutely no warning of future eternal torment. Like Adam, Cain heard none of the dire warnings preached from pulpits of the fiery wrath of God, tormenting his soul throughout eternity.

In Gen. 4:15, God said, “Therefore, whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold.” So if, with no warning, Cain was going to receive eternal fiery torment, would those who killed him receive seven times the endless fiery torment?

thing is bygrace just what do you think the death experienced by A&E was? and that death includes eternal separation from God just as Satan and friends are condemned to now. you follow and place your trust in what causes death, its not a miss understanding what the result is. so Adam was to be the son of God but that's not the case now is it? therefore who can claim God as Father but the Son?

you seem to think all are children of God and they are not, they are children of men, or worse as Jesus points out in some cases. one must be born of to be a child of.

anyway back to death, when Jesus died on the Cross did He die or did He experience death as in dying to the world that He was not in the world any more. for at least the time He wasn't. when some one dies to the world they are not perceived by the world nor is their existence acknowledge by anyone in the world as far as the dead being present in the world. (all beliefs aside about something other than some one in the flesh present in the world) so in the Kingdom of heaven who is dead and who is not, who remains in darkness and who is in the Light. for example Moses' face started to shine some time during their desert experience but it didn't stop he would go in the tabernacle remove the vail he had on his face and then after the Lord told him this or that he would place the vail on his face so other could look at him. imagine what that would be like, if light shines from your face could you see darkness or even perceive darkness, or even perceive or see what is in darkness? hence what is in darkness and darkness itself would be dead to you.


which kind of reminds me of this:


Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

and later Jesus has to say it so they get it, because the Spirit wasn't in them yet.

 

[amadeus]

you sound awful sure

Some of us are more sure than others.

 

[bbyrd009]

Some of us are more sure than others.

ha well of course he refers to a diff "here," but funny how ambiguated like that,
"there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here,"
one can heartily disagree, imo, there is lots of purgatory, or hints of it, suggested here
lol

 

[amadeus]

ha well of course he refers to a diff "here," but funny how amiguated like that,
"there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here,"
one can heartily disagree, imo, there is lots of purgatory, or hints of it, suggested here
lol

I do believe in purgatory, but not as the Catholics do. In spite of some who would dispute me I do know a bit about what Catholicism has been even if I may not know much about what it has become.

Speaking of purgatory, the verb involved I suppose would be "purge". All of us have had garbage in us that needed to be purged or removed. If we are really ready to re-enter the Garden of Eden, then we will pass through the flaming sword which will trim off the dead wood or burn it up or both. What enters in and partakes of the Tree of Life has become for certain something different than the vessel we were at our start. When we think of purging a good place to look is chapter of Daniel. The three Hebrews were ready to not only pass through but to go right into the fire. The strong men of Nebuchadnezzar whose job it was to throw the three into the fire were not ready. They along with the Hebrews were purged, but they had nothing worthwhile from God and the consuming fire killed them. The Hebrews on the other hand were ready because they had something worthwhile from God. Only the binding ropes were burned up by the consuming fire. What is the consuming fire?

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deut 4:24

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

 

[Helen]

I do believe in purgatory, but not as the Catholics do. In spite of some who would dispute me I do know a bit about what Catholicism has been even if I may not know much about what it has become.

Speaking of purgatory, the verb involved I suppose would be "purge". All of us have had garbage in us that needed to be purged or removed. If we are really ready to re-enter the Garden of Eden, then we will pass through the flaming sword which will trim off the dead wood or burn it up or both. What enters in and partakes of the Tree of Life has become for certain something different than the vessel we were at our start. When we think of purging a good place to look is chapter of Daniel. The three Hebrews were ready to not only pass through but to go right into the fire. The strong men of Nebuchadnezzar whose job it was to throw the three into the fire were not ready. They along with the Hebrews were purged, but they had nothing worthwhile from God and the consuming fire killed them. The Hebrews on the other hand were ready because they had something worthwhile from God. Only the binding ropes were burned up by the consuming fire. What is the consuming fire?

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deut 4:24

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

Well John...on this one we totally agree.
The fire the three Hebrew man were in , burned the bonds that held them.
The Burning Bush that Moses encountered " was not consumed"..
The Fire WILL BURN...and it will do it's work.

Not sure you are with me on all this one...but I DO believe in The Fire ...

I don't pretend to "know" everything, but I ask God to continue to draw me and also slap me when I am wrong.
Much I "hold lightly".

bless you...

 

[ScottA]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)

Most of us have been taught and think that eternal torment will engulf the vast majority of mankind, nearly all of Adam and Eve’s descendents, …..yet here’s a Father, God, who didn’t warn his children of the potential of what might befall them.

What would you think of a father who told his young child not to ride his bike in the street, and if he did, he would get a spanking. Yet suppose he also planned to roast him over a roaring fire for fifty years after he spanked him, …. you think him a just father for not warning his child?

Can you think of an apology or a defense for the father? Yet to Adam and Eve, the Father of all mankind failed to mention a much greater punishment than the death they would die the day they ate of the forbidden tree. Was this just a slip of the mind on God’s part, to not mention at all the interminable terrible woes that lay ahead for the vast majority of their descendants?

No, God announced to them a tangible present punishment the very day they committed the sin: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” They found that the wages of sin was death.

The same is true about Cain and Abel, a case of murder of a brother.
Surely, we would think that God might roll out the threat of eternal torment that Cain was to receive as a warning to all future generations. In the whole account, there’s not a hint, not a single word on the subject. Instead, Cain is told, “And now art thou cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” Again, Cain received an immediate, tangible physical punishment administered, with absolutely no warning of future eternal torment. Like Adam, Cain heard none of the dire warnings preached from pulpits of the fiery wrath of God, tormenting his soul throughout eternity.

In Gen. 4:15, God said, “Therefore, whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold.” So if, with no warning, Cain was going to receive eternal fiery torment, would those who killed him receive seven times the endless fiery torment?

Hahaha...we must have caught you at a rare moment!

All kidding aside, just as all who are saved are "in Christ" and One, so too are all who sin in Adam... and the details of the individuals that make up the multitudes are merely the unfolding of the one. Meaning...there are parts of Adam that will burn, but not all. But all who are in Christ, shall live. Therefore, the news only came when those parts of the one man were revealed.

Make sense?

 

[Helen]

Hahaha...we must have caught you at a rare moment!

All kidding aside, just as all who are saved are "in Christ" and One, so too are all who sin in Adam... and the details of the individuals that make up the multitudes are merely the unfolding of the one. Meaning...there are parts of Adam that will burn, but not all. But all who are in Christ, shall live. Therefore, the news only came when those parts of the one man were revealed.

Make sense?

Thank you...good thoughts. I have never heard that before,I will have to think on that for a bit. ( You probably know or not, that I believe in UR.) There are some things which are hard for me to believe now...I used to believe as do the majority 23 years ago..but not now.

Where have you been?...I have been missing you and your interesting posts.
I'm so glad to see you posting again.
Hoping that you haven't been sick or something.

Seeing your face this evening has made my day!

 

[ScottA]

Just busy elsewhere. Thanks!

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe in UR

do you post on Tentmaker?

 

[Helen]

do you post on Tentmaker?

No, but I know it. I didn't know people can post on it...I thought it was blogish kind of thing.
On a Christian site I was on for years...Roger Tutt posted often...I think he was connected with TentMaker.