And...God didn't say...

[brakelite]

bbyrd009:
First..no, there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here

Second, the words 'everlasting' or 'forever and ever' or 'eternal' are poor English translations...they mean once the process of purification is started it does not stop until it is completely finished...there is an end. Like a fire will burn itself out and dies out when all it can consume all that it can consumed and is destroyed.

(Rev 20:10) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Mat 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
(Mat 25:46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ALL ESV)

The spirit and it vessel of a person is completed purified and its previous identity is lost, purged or erased forever. The spirit is then returned to God, fully restored and pure.

Bless you,

APAK

I prefer to see it as the earth purified from sinners...the time for sinners to be purified from sins is now.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

This thread is talking about the second death and the fact that God did not devote a lot of words to explain the consequences of the second death in the Book of Genesis.

It is first mentioned in Genesis 2: 17: - 17b For in the day that you eat thereof you will die the second death.”

Or to say it another way: -

For in the day that you eat thereof, {i.e. sin,} you will become a contender/candidate for the second death, {i.e. you will surely die}.

Grace also suggests that it was not explained to Cain in God’s interacts with him, but the consequences of sinning is explained to Cain by God in the following passage: -

Genesis 4:6-7: -

6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

And Cain knew the consequences of dying the second death when he made to following response when God challenged him about killing Abel.

Genesis 4:10-15: -

10 And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield its strength to you. A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth."

13 And Cain said to the Lord, "My punishment is greater than I can bear! 14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; I shall be hidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me."

15 And the Lord said to him, "Therefore, whoever kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the Lord set a mark on Cain, lest anyone finding him should kill him.

The next time that the consequences of the second death is mentioned, it is found by inference in: -

Genesis 12:17-20: - 17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister'? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way." 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.

Again, in similar circumstances it is also found in this passage: -

Genesis 20: - Abraham and Abimelech

20:1 And Abraham journeyed from there to the South, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and stayed in Gerar. 2 Now Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.

3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him,"Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife."

4 But Abimelech had not come near her; and he said, "Lord, will You slay a righteous nation also? 5 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she, even she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and innocence of my hands I have done this."

6 And God said to him in a dream, "Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore, I did not let you touch her. 7 Now therefore, restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, {i.e. know that you shall die the second death}, you and all who are yours."

8 So Abimelech rose early in the morning, called all his servants, and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were very much afraid. 9 And Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, "What have you done to us? How have I offended you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done deeds to me that ought not to be done." 10 Then Abimelech said to Abraham, "What did you have in view, that you have done this thing?"

11 And Abraham said, "Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife. 12 But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said to her, 'This is your kindness that you should do for me: in every place, wherever we go, say of me, "He is my brother."'"

14 Then Abimelech took sheep, oxen, and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham; and he restored Sarah his wife to him. 15 And Abimelech said, "See, my land is before you; dwell where it pleases you." 16 Then to Sarah he said, "Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; indeed, this vindicates you before all who are with you and before everybody." Thus, she was rebuked.

17 So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants. Then they bore children; 18 for the Lord had closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.

Now the questions that I ask myself are: -

“What is the purpose of the first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis?

Was the first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis intended by Moses, to be a complete theological revelation for the rest of the scriptures we call the Bible?

Moses, in compiling the Book of Genesis, did he leave out much of the Oral tradition and understanding of God as it was his intention to slowly weave the oral understanding of the “statutes of God” into the Books of Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy along with a fuller explanation of what those statutes were and meant.

In the second commandment, it could be argued that the consequences of sin is embedded, along with the means of redemption, within this commandment: -

Exodus 20:4-6: -

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

For me, I have discovered that the implication of, and the redemption from, the second death, is hidden in plain sight within the scriptures, but that for the implications of the second death to be revealed we have to scratch the surface, so to speak, of the scriptures so that we remove the added material that hides it from plain sight

 

[truthquest]

No, but I know it. I didn't know people can post on it...I thought it was blogish kind of thing.
On a Christian site I was on for years...Roger Tutt posted often...I think he was connected with TentMaker.

I thought Tentmaker closed down.

 

[Helen]

I thought Tentmaker closed down.

Oh no, it's still there.

 

[truthquest]

Oh no, it's still there.

I thought they had some kind of issue at one time because I wasn't able to access it for awhile. But I see that I can access it now.

 

[Stranger]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)

Most of us have been taught and think that eternal torment will engulf the vast majority of mankind, nearly all of Adam and Eve’s descendents, …..yet here’s a Father, God, who didn’t warn his children of the potential of what might befall them.

What would you think of a father who told his young child not to ride his bike in the street, and if he did, he would get a spanking. Yet suppose he also planned to roast him over a roaring fire for fifty years after he spanked him, …. you think him a just father for not warning his child?

Can you think of an apology or a defense for the father? Yet to Adam and Eve, the Father of all mankind failed to mention a much greater punishment than the death they would die the day they ate of the forbidden tree. Was this just a slip of the mind on God’s part, to not mention at all the interminable terrible woes that lay ahead for the vast majority of their descendants?

No, God announced to them a tangible present punishment the very day they committed the sin: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” They found that the wages of sin was death.

The same is true about Cain and Abel, a case of murder of a brother.
Surely, we would think that God might roll out the threat of eternal torment that Cain was to receive as a warning to all future generations. In the whole account, there’s not a hint, not a single word on the subject. Instead, Cain is told, “And now art thou cursed from the earth...When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.” Again, Cain received an immediate, tangible physical punishment administered, with absolutely no warning of future eternal torment. Like Adam, Cain heard none of the dire warnings preached from pulpits of the fiery wrath of God, tormenting his soul throughout eternity.

In Gen. 4:15, God said, “Therefore, whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him seven-fold.” So if, with no warning, Cain was going to receive eternal fiery torment, would those who killed him receive seven times the endless fiery torment?

God did tell them, (Adam and Eve), they would die. But could they really understand what death was? No. They didn't understand till they saw Abel lying dead on the ground. So is God just though they didn't really understand what death was? I say of course God is just, He can be nothing less. The warning was given. It was a warning and they knew no good thing would occur if they disobeyed.

I believe there is a hell for those who reject God, who are not of God. I don't know what all it really will be, but, I know it is not good. And I know I don't want to go there.

The eternal lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, (Matt. 25:41), but men who reject God and Christ will go there also. Is God unrighteous Who sends them there? No, because men have rejected God and Christ. Is God unrighteous to send those to hell before the knowledge of hell given in the New Testament was known. No. Because they have rejected God. The knowledge of what hell is causes the man who is of God to fear. The knowledge of what hell is doesn't affect the man who is not of God, at all.

Those who reject God and Christ do not want to be in Heaven in the presence of God. They would rather be in hell away from God. (Rev. 6:16) And in this I think hell is them being in God's presence in a judgmental state. Being in the presence of God as a sinner as opposed to the righteous who are in the presence of God as pure and clothed in righteousness. For God is a consuming fire. (Heb. 12:29)

God needs no apology or defense to send all born of Adam to hell. He could righteously and justly send you and I to hell. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. That we don't know everything about eternal death and hell is immaterial. God would be just in sending us there. But we do not come to God seeking our rights or justice. We come seeking mercy and grace. God has made a way for man. Yet those not of God spurn that also. They justly go to hell and the lake of fire.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

bbyrd009:
First..no, there is no purgatory or even a hint of it suggested here

Second, the words 'everlasting' or 'forever and ever' or 'eternal' are poor English translations...they mean once the process of purification is started it does not stop until it is completely finished...there is an end. Like a fire will burn itself out and dies out when all it can consume all that it can consumed and is destroyed.

(Rev 20:10) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Mat 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
(Mat 25:46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ALL ESV)

The spirit and it vessel of a person is completed purified and its previous identity is lost, purged or erased forever. The spirit is then returned to God, fully restored and pure.

Bless you,

APAK

You're explaining purgatory perfectly.

 

[Marymog]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)
......

Hi BG,

I have never noticed this before: He never mentioned eternal torment to Adam and Eve. Thank you very much for this thought provoking challenge. I now have some bible study to do. I would like to try and figure out WHY he didn't warn them.

Love Mary

 

[aspen]

Spiritaul death is a state of eternal torment

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought they had some kind of issue at one time because I wasn't able to access it for awhile. But I see that I can access it now.

the software though, yikes

 

[bbyrd009]

(Mat 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
(Mat 25:46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

might be important to note that this is a parable about nations, which granted are people,
but at the same time this is a parable, not a literal recounting, and nations was used for a reason imo

32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[Helen]

Preconceived ideas and theories that men have said..stop us for ever really seeking an answer for ourself. We are too frightened to doubt what has been taught to us from childhood. Too lazy, too frightened and too set in our ways.

Have you ever seriously from the heart asked your Father -"If there is a Hell of everlasting punishment ...when was it created ...who created it ...and what "good" purpose will it serve? " I doubt it very much!
Ask the One who created you why there is such great inconsistency among English Bible translations regarding this one pagan word Hell that comes right out of northern European mythology, not from the original languages of the Bible, Hebrew and Greek.

Ask Him like a child. Leave your church traditions outside the door and ask the mind of Christ, the Spirit of Truth for a Truth-FULL answer.
The Truth is far more glorious than the "Traditions of Men" found in the institution called the Church.

 

[Helen]

The "restoration of all things" (apokatastasis), is a biblical concept that has gone under many different names: universalism, universal salvation, universal restitution, universal reconciliation, ultimate reconciliation, the Larger Hope, the Pauline Gospel, the gospel of Paul, the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, transmillenianism, universal restoration , The Greater Grace, and other terms.
Those who believe this message are found in every denomination and non-denomination.

To them, the one who believe in universalism, or "the Doctrine of Inclusion" are convinced that Jesus Christ will do what He said He came to do, save the world, the whole world, not just a part of it.

He left the 99 sheep to find the single sheep that was lost and He will not give up until He finds and saves every single one of His sheep. That's the truly Good News! That is news that brings hope to everyone on this planet. That is the only gospel worth preaching and living.

.

 

[aspen]

The "restoration of all things" (apokatastasis), is a biblical concept that has gone under many different names: universalism, universal salvation, universal restitution, universal reconciliation, ultimate reconciliation, the Larger Hope, the Pauline Gospel, the gospel of Paul, the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, transmillenianism, universal restoration , The Greater Grace, and other terms.
Those who believe this message are found in every denomination and non-denomination.

To them, the one who believe in universalism, or "the Doctrine of Inclusion" are convinced that Jesus Christ will do what He said He came to do, save the world, the whole world, not just a part of it.

He left the 99 sheep to find the single sheep that was lost and He will not give up until He finds and saves every single one of His sheep. That's the truly Good News! That is news that brings hope to everyone on this planet. That is the only gospel worth preaching and living.

.

Love this

 

[Helen]

How can “where sin abounds, grace does much more abound” be true if most of God's creation will be forever lost?
Is the first Adam’s disobedience greater than the second Adam’s obedience?

Is the disease =sin greater than the cure = Cross ?
Does Adam have the power to curse all of humanity but Christ only the power to save a few?

If God holds us personally responsible for Adam’s sin, then we see great injustice. First, He sets up a 'chessboard' that is impossible to overcome or win....set the tree, the seductive beauty of it, and the tempter, and then as a result of Adam’s inevitable choice, He declares that most of His creatures will be lost forever!

This to me and scripture, goes against the very nature of God as love.
His power to save all, and His ultimate responsibility to fix ...and not just provide a way... for man’s confused and lost state.

According to the modern theology, somehow Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin....He just paved a way so that if a man chooses Christ by His own “free” will, then his own personal sin problem is cured.

But this clearly contradicts Paul’s universal thrust in Romans 5:12-18,
1 Cor. 15:22-28, Phil. 2:10,11, and all throughout the Scriptures.
"He is the Saviour of all men, but especially those who believe." Tim. 4:10

 

[pia]

According to the modern theology, somehow Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin

How else could they have gained control over the masses and kept them coming back, asking for forgiveness over and over....As if God was both deaf and a liar....

 

[pia]

@"ByGrace" ...I saw an interesting movie about the life of an American preacher called Carlton Pearce...it was extremely interesting....He'd started out the normal way, Bible college / university and gone from there, but then the Lord spoke to Him and boy oh boy his life changed from there...Has an amazing moral story to it all, one which all us calling ourselves Christians ought to consider...

 

[Stranger]

How can “where sin abounds, grace does much more abound” be true if most of God's creation will be forever lost?
Is the first Adam’s disobedience greater than the second Adam’s obedience?

Is the disease =sin greater than the cure = Cross ?
Does Adam have the power to curse all of humanity but Christ only the power to save a few?

If God holds us personally responsible for Adam’s sin, then we see great injustice. First, He sets up a 'chessboard' that is impossible to overcome or win....set the tree, the seductive beauty of it, and the tempter, and then as a result of Adam’s inevitable choice, He declares that most of His creatures will be lost forever!

This to me and scripture, goes against the very nature of God as love.
His power to save all, and His ultimate responsibility to fix ...and not just provide a way... for man’s confused and lost state.

According to the modern theology, somehow Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin....He just paved a way so that if a man chooses Christ by His own “free” will, then his own personal sin problem is cured.

But this clearly contradicts Paul’s universal thrust in Romans 5:12-18,
1 Cor. 15:22-28, Phil. 2:10,11, and all throughout the Scriptures.
"He is the Saviour of all men, but especially those who believe." Tim. 4:10

The cure for sin is certainly greater. All fell in Adam. All shall be redeemed in Christ. If any were born who were not 'in Adam', then they would not be a sinner. But all are born 'in Adam', thus all are sinners.

The same is true for being 'in Christ'. All will be redeemed....'in Christ'. You had to be 'in Adam' to be a sinner. You have to be 'in Christ' to be redeemed. The 'only' way to get out of Adam and into Christ, is to place faith in Jesus Christ. Those who do not place faith in Christ are not redeemed and will be eternally separated from God.

Christ's sacrifice was sufficient to save all in Adam. But not all are saved. All of of God's salvation plan is a product of His love and His righteousness. This does not go against God's love. It demonstrates God's love and righteousness.

Consider this. God will find and redeem all who were lost in the fall of Adam. But, to be lost, you first had to be God's possession. There are many born in Adam that were never God's. In the fall of Adam another seed line was produced that was never of God. They are not lost. They are of the world, the flesh, and the devil. This is their home and they want nothing to do with God. God will lose none who are His. And those who are not His will never come to Him.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

How can “where sin abounds, grace does much more abound” be true if most of God's creation will be forever lost?
Is the first Adam’s disobedience greater than the second Adam’s obedience?

Is the disease =sin greater than the cure = Cross ?
Does Adam have the power to curse all of humanity but Christ only the power to save a few?

If God holds us personally responsible for Adam’s sin, then we see great injustice. First, He sets up a 'chessboard' that is impossible to overcome or win....set the tree, the seductive beauty of it, and the tempter, and then as a result of Adam’s inevitable choice, He declares that most of His creatures will be lost forever!

This to me and scripture, goes against the very nature of God as love.
His power to save all, and His ultimate responsibility to fix ...and not just provide a way... for man’s confused and lost state.

According to the modern theology, somehow Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin....He just paved a way so that if a man chooses Christ by His own “free” will, then his own personal sin problem is cured.

But this clearly contradicts Paul’s universal thrust in Romans 5:12-18,
1 Cor. 15:22-28, Phil. 2:10,11, and all throughout the Scriptures.
"He is the Saviour of all men, but especially those who believe." Tim. 4:10

Hi BG
God does not hold us responisble for Adam's sin. That would not be justice and God is just. He does not impute to us the sin of another.
Romans 4:6-8

What we do have from Adam is the effect of his sin. The story shows us that man fell due to disobedience, and since Adam was the first born of all men, he caused the fall to effect all men. This is called original sin. We're all born with it, it makes us tend toward sin and satan's will because we do not know God or have the spririt of God.
Romans 5:12 Sin and death spread to all men.

As far as God warning Adam of the consequences of sin, proper exegesis of a verse teaches that we can only go by what is said in the bible and are not to assume anything else. We don't know whether or not God warned Adam, we can say He didn't because it's not written, but we can't know for sure. God did tell Adam that he would surely die, but Adam did not understand. This is because we don't understand what God tells us because revelation has to be given slowly. Man does not have the mind of God and we can only understand so much.

The consequences at that time were of an earthly, physical nature.
Genesis 3:16-19 The man will toil; the woman will give birth in pain.
What before was a blessing, has now become a curse.
The man was to be the steward of the garden, and the woman was to be fruitful and multiply.

Perhaps the afterlife came to be understood later?

 

[GodsGrace]

@"ByGrace" ...I saw an interesting movie about the life of an American preacher called Carlton Pearce...it was extremely interesting....He'd started out the normal way, Bible college / university and gone from there, but then the Lord spoke to Him and boy oh boy his life changed from there...Has an amazing moral story to it all, one which all us calling ourselves Christians ought to consider...

Did it change for the better?
He was distraught and in agony.
He no longer knew what was right; he had doubts.
He should have understood from the suffering going on in Africa that satan is the Prince of the Air and we are all subject to his ways and torments.

I assume you liked it because he stuck to his ideals even if it meant losing his church.
The bible does not teach universalism. Jesus said so Himself.
John 15:6