And...God didn't say...

[Helen]

@GodsGrace I appreciate your responses.
Thanks for that.
I think that I am too rooted into what I believe God has shown me and spoken to me. It didn't come easily or lightly...it was agony before I could finally say yes to God..it was actually over about 10 years that He kept nudging me on things that I was reading in the word...and especially my preconceived mind sets.
But...that's my story.

Bless you! H.

 

[pia]

assume you liked it because he stuck to his ideals even if it meant losing his church.
The bible does not teach universalism. Jesus said so Himself.

You saw this as the man losing something ? Boy oh boy do we see things in opposites.....Losing HIS 'church', what on earth is that about ? There is ONE Church, that is the one the Lord is putting together, of His own...many people have a time in the 'wilderness' where we learn so much, this man also did, and began to truly show Jesus' love to the 'sick' and the 'lowly', before all he was doing was preaching to the already converted, as churches tend to do, and really this whole 'how many bums in the seats/pews' to me is just a crock....Have no idea what universalism is, and frankly I don't much care......My life with Jesus has been amazing so far, and I am not about to do any veering off in any other direction, unless He instructs me to........

 

[GodsGrace]

You saw this as the man losing something ? Boy oh boy do we see things in opposites.....Losing HIS 'church', what on earth is that about ? There is ONE Church, that is the one the Lord is putting together, of His own...many people have a time in the 'wilderness' where we learn so much, this man also did, and began to truly show Jesus' love to the 'sick' and the 'lowly', before all he was doing was preaching to the already converted, as churches tend to do, and really this whole 'how many bums in the seats/pews' to me is just a crock....Have no idea what universalism is, and frankly I don't much care......My life with Jesus has been amazing so far, and I am not about to do any veering off in any other direction, unless He instructs me to........

Hi Pia,
I didn't see it as being about how many bums are in the pews.
I must say that I don't care for some tactics that get the "bums" in the pews, but I do like that they're there because at least they get to hear the word of God.

If you're a universalist and believe everyone is going to heaven, then I can understand how you came to believe what you do about the film.

If you remember, at the very beginning the preacher is sitting on a plane going somewhere and he witnesses to the passenger next to him and he gets the woman saved. He had a big burden on him because he thought his whole reason for being a preacher was to get people saved but he couldn't save all those poor persons in Africa that he happened to see on a TV program a particular evening. This bothered him a great deal and he went through his dark night of the soul. Speaking to God about this and trying to understand how they could possibly be lost because they hadn't known about Jesus...

In the very next scene, he tells his congregation that this burden has been taken away from him. He no longer feels it necessary to witness and get people saved, he no longer believes those that haven't heard about Jesus are lost. Why? Because God, during his dark night of the soul, told him that everyone will be saved in the end. This belief released him from a big burden.

So those many in the congregation left this big church of 6,000 and eventually he had to step down. Actually, they were correct, because the bible does not teach that everyone will be saved. It teaches that there are two places where a soul will end up and we must choose which place we want to go to.

However, the bible also teaches that God is a loving and merciful and just God and He will not condemn anyone because they have not heard of Jesus. Anyway, the children in Africa that the preacher felt sorry for due to the poverty and sickness would go to be with God anyway, because they were before the age of reason. And, what reason??? When one has to struggle everyday just for food. We can trust God to be loving.

So, you say above that he was preaching to the already converted -- this is not true. He was witnessing to everyone he could.

By the end, he was not witnessing to anyone anymore because he didn't see the necessity, and he was truly preaching to those he believed would be saved anyway.

 

[Helen]

By the end, he was not witnessing to anyone anymore because he didn't see the necessity, and he was truly preaching to those he believed would be saved anyway

*I must start by saying that I did not see the movie being discussed here. So I am not judging the movie, or the man, but only the short clip of a quote above here.

To GodsGrace:- re quote...
Then I have to say that he did not have a clue what the real message is!!
In my life, I lead people to the Lord because I show them His mighty love, and not the threat of hell.
I start when meeting a new person that I feel I should be speaking to, by saying:-
"Do you know just how much God loves you?" ( then I go on to tell them of the love of God and Jesus laying down His life) That is the Good News , that is the Gospel.

Why would that man rob people of probably many years of wonderful peace, fellowship and joy with the Father, by NOT telling them what God has done for them??? He was a very selfish man. And obviously did NOT have a Pastors heart and shouldn't have been in leadership in the first place.

I say again...he was not a true believer in the Ultimate Reconciliation.
A true believer in UR is thrilled to share the Gospel as often and as freely as they can. UR does not nullify the Good News.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then I have to say that he did not have a clue what the real message is!!
In my life, I lead people to the Lord because I show them His mighty love, and not the threat of hell.
I start when meeting a new person that I feel I should be speaking to, by saying:-
"Do you know just how much God loves you?" ( then I go on to tell them of the love of God and Jesus laying down His life) That is the Good News , that is the Gospel.

Why would that man rob people of probably many years of wonderful peace, fellowship and joy with the Father, by NOT telling them what God has done for them??? He was a very selfish man. And obviously did NOT have a Pastors heart and shouldn't have been in leadership in the first place.

I say again...he was not a true believer in the Ultimate Reconciliation.
A true believer in UR is thrilled to share the Gospel as often and as freely as they can. UR does not nullify the Good News.

Did you see the movie?
Who said he preached about hell?
You think about hell too much.
Most preachers preach for two reasons:
1. Get people to heaven
2. Get people to have a better life here on earth.

I'm not here to change your mind about what God has told you...it has nothing to do with salvation.

If you believe in the UR, why do you witness at all?
We're all going to be saved anyway. It DOES nullify the good news.
The good news is that Jesus has saved us from condemnation and has restored our relationship with God through our belief in Him because in Him is eternal life.
NOT outside of Him.

What do you make of Luke 16:19-31??
Are you aware that most theologians do not believe this is a parable but a true story?

Universalism is not mainline Christianity and not what we Christians are supposed to believe. If you want to, that's fine with me and you'll get no argument; however, you also cannot claim it to be true.

 

[Helen]

@GodsGrace
Sorry, you replied to mine while I was editing it...I said there in my edit, I was only replying to the small snip of a quote...
I did not see the movie..no idea what it is called. But was just saying what I said about his belief system.
Obviously I have many friends and acquaintances who are UR believers.
They have not just stopped sharing the Good News gospel.

Edit. as far as I can see I did not say that the man was preaching hell !!!!!!
I don't see where I even mentioned hell
In my last post about the movie?
Which was NOT about the movie, it was in response to a snip of quote you posted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, you replied to mine while I was editing it...I said there in my edit, I was only replying to the small snip of a quote...
I did not see the movie..no idea what it is called. But was just saying what I said about his belief system.
Obviously I have many friends and acquaintances who are UR believers.
They have not just stopped sharing the Good News gospel.

BG,
In the movie the preacher was very happy to share the good news of the gospel
UNTIL he became a believer in UR! Then he felt relieved of the duty.

I also was answering only to the small snipet.
Or at least, I tried.

 

[Helen]

I don't see where I referenced hell in my post! Or said that he preached it..
I couldn't say that...as I never saw it!

 

[Helen]

BG,
In the movie the preacher was very happy to share the good news of the gospel
UNTIL he became a believer in UR! Then he felt relieved of the duty.

This IS what I was addressing...and I said..that he obviously did NOT understand or hear the true message of UR.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see where I referenced hell in my post! Or said that he preached it..
I couldn't say that...as I never saw it!

This is what you said:

To GodsGrace:- re quote...
Then I have to say that he did not have a clue what the real message is!!
In my life, I lead people to the Lord because I show them His mighty love, and not the threat of hell.

(post 44)

 

[Helen]

If you believe in the UR, why do you witness at all?
We're all going to be saved anyway. It DOES nullify the good news.
The good news is that Jesus has saved us from condemnation and has restored our relationship with God through our belief in Him because in Him is eternal life.

Oh Fran...that is a real OUCH of a remark.

When you hear that they are giving free coffee for a day in some coffee shop.
You never tell anyone the good news.
If you meet a new and wonderful friend...do you not what to introduce him/her to your other friends?

Yes...that was a real "ouch" of a comment.

 

[Helen]

This is what you said:
To GodsGrace:- re quote...
Then I have to say that he did not have a clue what the real message is!!
In my life, I lead people to the Lord because I show them His mighty love, and not the threat of hell.

(post 44)

True..thanks for finding it...
See my quote of yours in red..."I" referenced hell...I did not say that he did!

I was referencing this comment of yours :-

*Who said he preached about hell? *
You think about hell too much.

Well , strangely enough I don't think about hell at all. Except when I hear Christians bleating on about 'the majority of humanity going there.'
Then I speak up.

Nice posting to you...I haven't had this much fun on here for ages.
We will never agree on this...but I enjoy your 'challenges'. x

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh Fran...that is a real OUCH of a remark.

When you hear that they are giving free coffee for a day in some coffee shop.
You never tell anyone the good news.
If you meet a new and wonderful friend...do you not what to introduce him/her to your other friends?

Yes...that was a real "ouch" of a comment.

Don't be so delicate!!
If we're all going to be saved anyway, it takes all the excitement out of witnessing!

I did say that it's good to witness anyway, and preach - as preachers do - because we also get to live a better life right now. Some persons have such miserable lives because they don't know God and they talk badly about others, or steal and end up in prison, or do drugs and ruin their body, etc etc..

But if you believe that the spirit of Jesus must be in you to be saved, then you do tend to want everyone to know this. And it is true that most don't really want to hear about it, or it sounds dumb to them. At least here. We should be a Christian nation and instead we're going the way of France --- atheism. It's really sad.

 

[GodsGrace]

True..thanks for finding it...
See my quote of yours in red..."I" referenced hell...I did not say that he did!

I was referencing this comment of yours :-


Well , strangely enough I don't think about hell at all. Except when I hear Christians bleating on about 'the majority of humanity going there.'
Then I speak up.

Nice posting to you...I haven't had this much fun on here for ages.
We will never agree on this...but I enjoy your 'challenges'. x

Good that you don't think about it. I hate just mentioning the word.
I like Philippians 4:8-9

 

[pia]

So, you say above that he was preaching to the already converted -- this is not true. He was witnessing to everyone he could.

By the end, he was not witnessing to anyone anymore because he didn't see the necessity, and he was truly preaching to those he believed would be saved anyway.

One scene in the movie shows the people walking out of that man made church they had going, and another talks to him about it, so please don't tell me that they don't count numbers...as if only big ministries can be of God....They most certainly do everywhere I have attended assemblies..........The big difference I got from the movie was that he had moved from being just another talking head ( I'm talking about within thew structure they called their church) re-hashing sentences which have been discussed and dissected by thousands of people over the past two thousand years, onto actually DOING what the Lord asked us all to do, and that was that he began to see the need for Jesus by those rejected and cast out by the religious systems.....He began to truly Love as Jesus Loves.
Thanks for straightening out that universalism....... Since I did experience a place of utter blackness and silence when I was 'dead' for a while, I cannot say that every person goes to Gods Heaven, I simply do not know what all that is about...However when I did get to ask Jesus why I had ended up in such a place ( as I didn't think I had been that bad a person), He merely said :" You asked to die.....That is what it is to die."......I can't and won't try to add anything to that, it's what He said, so that is always good enough for me....In 33 years He has never led me astray in any way what so ever, nor has anything He has told me, ever turned out to be different.......As far as my life goes, I would be extremely foolish, if I was to try to follow after any other person or any other way of going about things......Everyone else can and will do what they think is required of them, and others will just reject all of it out of hand.....We have free will, so we cannot force people to believe......Love was the thing Jesus told us would convince people, and which seems to be the very least practiced by Christians......Very sad !

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Would you say death is any better than eternal torment or eternal torment better than death? Jesus suffered both dying the death of death.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Just busy elsewhere. Thanks!

Are there active ~elsewhere's~?
BaptistBoard banned me wrongly blaming me of 'soliciting', which I deny but cannot even tell them.
Christforums banned me because I used to stop the mouth of the CEO, Oregin. (Spelling? Can't remember.)
Christianforums banned me accusing me of spamming and soliciting, while every post of mine like everywhere else always is first time and unique and as far as possible, Scripture only.
Adventistan banned me because I tell them the humbug they offer for Gospel.
Several other boards or forums I can mention, which died sudden death soon after I was banned from them.

So please tell me where are you elsewhere busy, because I would like to say my say in as many places as possible?

 

[Helen]

Would you say death is any better than eternal torment or eternal torment better than death? Jesus suffered both dying the death of death.

Hey there.
If you have read all the posts on this thread then you already know where I stand.
And then you already know that I do not believe in "eternal torment".
I believe in :-
Acts 3.21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Romans 5-10 " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

 

[ScottA]

Are there active ~elsewhere's~?
BaptistBoard banned me wrongly blaming me of 'soliciting', which I deny but cannot even tell them.
Christforums banned me because I used to stop the mouth of the CEO, Oregin. (Spelling? Can't remember.)
Christianforums banned me accusing me of spamming and soliciting, while every post of mine like everywhere else always is first time and unique and as far as possible, Scripture only.
Adventistan banned me because I tell them the humbug they offer for Gospel.
Several other boards or forums I can mention, which died sudden death soon after I was banned from them.

So please tell me where are you elsewhere busy, because I would like to say my say in as many places as possible?

No, I was just busy at work and at home. But you might check out: Worthy Christian Forums

 

[Philip James]

"dying you will die" seems like a pretty good synopsis of the consequences, i guess

Deut 30:19

I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live

Peace!