And...God didn't say...

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Ac28

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God did not have to mention it. Adam was simply told that the day he disobeyed he would SURELY die. And clearly Adam passed this injunction on to Eve.

That should have been enough to stop them in their tracks. In fact they had absolutely no reason nor excuse to disobey God.

No one should use this as an excuse to deny the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in the Lake for Fire for the unrighteous. Christ clearly preached and taught this doctrine, and that is all that really matters at this point.


Give up! Say Uncle! There is no hell! You're wrong about this as you've been wrong about everything else I've seen you write. I realize you are about as traditional as traditionalists get. However, traditionalists know less truth than any other Christian group I can think of, because they live in this tight little box. I think you got saved and then you stopped learning truth. You probably believe that Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles and that, when you die, you immediately go to heaven. Those are both standard traditionalist falsehoods, along with hell and the fact that you don't HAVE a soul, you ARE a soul. See Gen 2:7. You probably believe the 10 commandments are for you, even though they were part of Israel's Law and, no Gentile has EVER been under the Law, not for a second.

How can you complain about someone disobeying God, when you constantly disobey Him by not following His Commandment to rightly divide His word of truth in 2Tim 2:15. The minute you start rightly dividing (correctly cutting) God's word, your Bible IQ will nearly double. Also, as God says in that verse, if you do rightly divide, you will be approved unto God. And, of course, the opposite must be true. If you don't rightly divide, you won't be approved unto God. Right Division is the absolute #1 key to seeing all truths of the Bible, especially the New Testament.
 
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brakelite

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Back to the OP. I agree with the first post in every respect...except I do not accept the conclusion that @"ByGrace" draws. I hate the concept of eternal torment with a passion, as it portrays a character that is so far removed from reality and Godliness as to be verging on the border of insanity. But scriptures also make clear that there are many who will not make it. The final lake of fire a case in point. Note that at that time the "New Jerusalem" has descended from heaven and is now on the earth. Inside the city are all the redeemed. Outside are the unrepentant wicked, raised from the dead that they may realise their fate and see the justification inherent in their judgement. The scriptures declare the wages of sin is death. That death, a state of permanent separation(everlasting punishment) from God, thus a separation from the very source of life, both spiritual and physical, must result in the only viable and logical and scripturally declared fate of the wicked...the second death...affected by fire which comes down out of heaven and consumes them. They are forever destroyed.
 

OzSpen

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When God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, He never mentioned eternal torment to them. Read it for yourself...it’s just not there.

Don’t you think it ’s strange that as human history began and while God explained which tree they could not eat of, that He didn’t give the parents of all mankind some kind of warning about eternal punishment (if there was potential for it to be in their future, and the future of all their posterity?)

ByGrace,

I'm entering this discussion very late. I have not read all the responses. Some of my thought may have been covered already. I apologise if that is so.

What did God say would happen if Adam & Eve ate from the trees of the knowledge of good and evil?

'16 And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die' (Gen 2:16-17 NIV).​

Did the man and woman die physically when they ate from those trees? Not according to the Gen 2-3 record! They eventually died physically. Adam lived to 930 years (Gen 5:5), but no age is given in the Bible for Eve's physical death.

So what kind of 'death' was it that Adam & Eve experienced on the day they ate?

Hebrew expositor, H C Leupold, wrote of Gen 2:17:

For the thought actually to be expressed is the instantaneous occurrence of the penalty threatened, which is also again expressed in part by the imperfect with absolute infinitive, "dying thou shalt die" = "certainly die." This at once raises the question, "Why was this penalty not carried out as threatened?" We answer: "It was; if the Biblical concept of dying is kept in mind, as it unfolds itself ever more clearly from age to age." Dying is separation from God. That separation occurred the very moment, when man by his disobedience broke the bond of love. If physical death ultimately closes the experience, that is not the most serious aspect of the whole affair. The more serious is the inner spiritual separation. Oehler (T A T p. 254) rightly maintains: "For a fact, after the commission of sin man at once stepped upon the road of death." The contention that the Old Testament does not know spiritual death, because it does not happen to use that very expression, is a rationalizing and shallow one, which misconstrues the whole tenor of the Old Testament. The common claim raised in this connection, e. g. by Skinner: "God, having regard to the circumstances of the temptation, changed His purpose and modified the penalty," makes of God a mutable being, who, like a rash parent, first speaks severe threats, then sees Himself compelled by developments to modify His purpose. The 1.129 explanation, "He shall be mortal," is based on the erroneous translation of the Septuagint.

Before leaving this verse it is a good thing to observe how definitely the account teaches that the first man was gifted with freedom of will. The moral sense must not first develop later; it is a part of the original heritage of man. It has been pointed out that in records such as these the Old Testament "veritably reechoes with imperatives," (Koenig, T A T p. 233). A moral being standing on a very high plane of perfection at the time of his creation ― such is the man of the creation account of Genesis (Leupold, Exposition of Genesis, 2:17).​

So what did spiritual death or separation from God mean in the Genesis account and the OT? Did God need to write about 'eternal torment' in Gen 2-3 (your concern) if the theology of eternal torment was covered in 'separation from God'?

This is how Isaiah described the situation for rebel unbelievers:

But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish....
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire (Isa 1:28, 30-31 NIV).​

I find it to be dangerous to build one's theology of life after death in the Old Testament, on the first few chapters of the Bible.

I have just concluded weeks of study with a seniors' group on life-after-death in the OT. An examination of the Scriptures did not conclude that eternal torment or torment in Sheol was not included in OT revelation.

However, we need to remember that God revealed his purposes and plan through progressive revelation and not in one dollop in the OT.

I haven't yet formatted and uploaded my content to my homepage.

Oz


 

OzSpen

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Give up! Say Uncle! You're wrong about this as you've been wrong about everything else I've seen you write. I realize you are about as traditional as traditionalists get. However, traditionalists know less truth than any other Christian group I can think of, because they live in this tight little box. I think you got saved and then you stopped learning truth. You probably believe that Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles and that, when you die, you immediately go to heaven. Those are both standard traditionalist falsehoods, along with hell and the fact that you don't HAVE a soul, you ARE a soul. See Gen 2:7. You probably believe the 10 commandments are for you, even though they were part of Irael's Law and, no Gentile has EVER been under the Law.

Ac28,

This kind of put down of another Christian poster is totally unnecessary.

This kind of accusation is an ad hominem logical fallacy:

I realize you are about as traditional as traditionalists get. However, traditionalists know less truth than any other Christian group I can think of, because they live in this tight little box

Would you like your person and your worldview to be debunked like this?

I suggest that you follow what Jesus taught in the Golden Rule: 'Do to others as you would have them do to you' (Luke 6:31 NIV). Please reason with us instead of making accusations.

I would like this forum to be a pleasant one for all of us to engage with courtesy and compassion. Please, please consider the NT teaching: 'Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience' (Col 3:12 NIV).

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Back to the OP. I agree with the first post in every respect...except I do not accept the conclusion that @"ByGrace" draws. I hate the concept of eternal torment with a passion, as it portrays a character that is so far removed from reality and Godliness as to be verging on the border of insanity. But scriptures also make clear that there are many who will not make it. The final lake of fire a case in point. Note that at that time the "New Jerusalem" has descended from heaven and is now on the earth. Inside the city are all the redeemed. Outside are the unrepentant wicked, raised from the dead that they may realise their fate and see the justification inherent in their judgement. The scriptures declare the wages of sin is death. That death, a state of permanent separation(everlasting punishment) from God, thus a separation from the very source of life, both spiritual and physical, must result in the only viable and logical and scripturally declared fate of the wicked...the second death...affected by fire which comes down out of heaven and consumes them. They are forever destroyed.

brakelite,

I'd like your clarification on what you believe about the future punishment of unbelievers.

Do you consider there will be no eternal, conscious torment for unbelievers?

Is this verse excised from your Bible? '‘Then they [unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46).

So, your view is that 'they [unrighteous] are forever destroyed', which makes your beliefs that of an annihilationist.

Oz
 

quietthinker

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ByGrace:

You know the ‘Lake of Fire’ or Hell, reminds me of a place of purification to restoration, not endless torment. This is the place and state for judgement of God’s rebels or unrestored ones.

A place and state where the heart is cleansed over time.

The word Greek ‘theion’ means brimstone = Sulphur + fire - used for purification.

We see the analogy of a furnace plant where the impurities within a material are separated and discarded.

The ‘smoke’ ascended (not really ‘forever’) until the process was completed completely, in full view of Christ and the angels.

God’ theme throughout his words are for purification and restoration of all creation.

Bless you,

APAK
APAK, I'm persuaded that you are drawing conclusions from an totally unstable premise. The premise being the immortality of the soul.
We are told that only God has immortality in 1 Timothy 6:16. It is also confirmed in 1 Timothy 1:17

Yes, purification will occur and by fire of all that is corrupted, both those that know not Jesus and the Earth with its works as spoken of in 2 Peter 3:7-11 It speaks of things being destroyed. When something is destroyed it is no longer in existance. There are no remnants. There will be a Universe cleansed and untainted by sin or sinners.
To use the word 'purification' in the sense that you are suggesting is taking the word out of its context.

Nowhere is it spoken of in scripture as a purging or the making pure of sinners through the fires of hell. That idea is in total contradiction to the Gospel unless of course one wants to introduce 'another gospel' which Paul has strong words to say about.
 

APAK

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APAK, I'm persuaded that you are drawing conclusions from an totally unstable premise. The premise being the immortality of the soul.
We are told that only God has immortality in 1 Timothy 6:16. It is also confirmed in 1 Timothy 1:17

Yes, purification will occur and by fire of all that is corrupted, both those that know not Jesus and the Earth with its works as spoken of in 2 Peter 3:7-11 It speaks of things being destroyed. When something is destroyed it is no longer in existance. There are no remnants. There will be a Universe cleansed and untainted by sin or sinners.
To use the word 'purification' in the sense that you are suggesting is taking the word out of its context.

Nowhere is it spoken of in scripture as a purging or the making pure of sinners through the fires of hell. That idea is in total contradiction to the Gospel unless of course one wants to introduce 'another gospel' which Paul has strong words to say about.

quietthinker:
No, I do not believe in any immortal soul. Nor do I believe that we have a soul. We ARE a mortal soul until we die. I'm sorry my writing might have confused you.

I see we do disagree with one's SPIRIT that is impure being cleanse for a finite time and restored, to a state or place not in presence of God.

This is my current view. I f you can persuade me otherwise, please do.


Bless you,

APAK
 

APAK

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APAK, I'm persuaded that you are drawing conclusions from an totally unstable premise. The premise being the immortality of the soul.
We are told that only God has immortality in 1 Timothy 6:16. It is also confirmed in 1 Timothy 1:17

Yes, purification will occur and by fire of all that is corrupted, both those that know not Jesus and the Earth with its works as spoken of in 2 Peter 3:7-11 It speaks of things being destroyed. When something is destroyed it is no longer in existance. There are no remnants. There will be a Universe cleansed and untainted by sin or sinners.
To use the word 'purification' in the sense that you are suggesting is taking the word out of its context.

Nowhere is it spoken of in scripture as a purging or the making pure of sinners through the fires of hell. That idea is in total contradiction to the Gospel unless of course one wants to introduce 'another gospel' which Paul has strong words to say about.

Looking at 2 Peter 3:7-11 once more, these are physical things being destroyed including ungodly men. I was addressing beyond or for a different time when ungodly spirits will be judged. The time frames can be confusing. One is physical as you pointed out and one is spiritual as I pointed out....

what do you think? Do I have it right?

APAK
 

Helen

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ByGrace,

I'm entering this discussion very late. I have not read all the responses. Some of my thought may have been covered already. I apologise if that is so.

What did God say would happen if Adam & Eve ate from the trees of the knowledge of good and evil?

'16 And the Lord God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die' (Gen 2:16-17 NIV).​

Did the man and woman die physically when they ate from those trees? Not according to the Gen 2-3 record! They eventually died physically. Adam lived to 930 years (Gen 5:5), but no age is given in the Bible for Eve's physical death.

So what kind of 'death' was it that Adam & Eve experienced on the day they ate?

Hebrew expositor, H C Leupold, wrote of Gen 2:17:

For the thought actually to be expressed is the instantaneous occurrence of the penalty threatened, which is also again expressed in part by the imperfect with absolute infinitive, "dying thou shalt die" = "certainly die." This at once raises the question, "Why was this penalty not carried out as threatened?" We answer: "It was; if the Biblical concept of dying is kept in mind, as it unfolds itself ever more clearly from age to age." Dying is separation from God. That separation occurred the very moment, when man by his disobedience broke the bond of love. If physical death ultimately closes the experience, that is not the most serious aspect of the whole affair. The more serious is the inner spiritual separation. Oehler (T A T p. 254) rightly maintains: "For a fact, after the commission of sin man at once stepped upon the road of death." The contention that the Old Testament does not know spiritual death, because it does not happen to use that very expression, is a rationalizing and shallow one, which misconstrues the whole tenor of the Old Testament. The common claim raised in this connection, e. g. by Skinner: "God, having regard to the circumstances of the temptation, changed His purpose and modified the penalty," makes of God a mutable being, who, like a rash parent, first speaks severe threats, then sees Himself compelled by developments to modify His purpose. The 1.129 explanation, "He shall be mortal," is based on the erroneous translation of the Septuagint.

Before leaving this verse it is a good thing to observe how definitely the account teaches that the first man was gifted with freedom of will. The moral sense must not first develop later; it is a part of the original heritage of man. It has been pointed out that in records such as these the Old Testament "veritably reechoes with imperatives," (Koenig, T A T p. 233). A moral being standing on a very high plane of perfection at the time of his creation ― such is the man of the creation account of Genesis (Leupold, Exposition of Genesis, 2:17).​

So what did spiritual death or separation from God mean in the Genesis account and the OT? Did God need to write about 'eternal torment' in Gen 2-3 (your concern) if the theology of eternal torment was covered in 'separation from God'?

This is how Isaiah described the situation for rebel unbelievers:

But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish....
30 You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.
31 The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire (Isa 1:28, 30-31 NIV).​

I find it to be dangerous to build one's theology of life after death in the Old Testament, on the first few chapters of the Bible.

I have just concluded weeks of study with a seniors' group on life-after-death in the OT. An examination of the Scriptures did not conclude that eternal torment or torment in Sheol was not included in OT revelation.

However, we need to remember that God revealed his purposes and plan through progressive revelation and not in one dollop in the OT.

I haven't yet formatted and uploaded my content to my homepage.

Oz

Thanks for your post Oz.
We don't often find ourselves writing to each other on this Forum. :)

Good post, and I agree, they didn't die in the flesh, they died in spirit.
As I see it, Their eyes were open and they saw the natural things, they saw as we see, they had been a spiritual people now they weren't ( like us , very rarely seeing right into the realm of God) They weren't cut off totally from God's voice...because it goes on to say that "they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden..." As we do too, so often. God spoke, Adam answered. They had a conversation, as we do. Adam may have been 'blind' to the spiritual realm , but he could still hear.
It says the God made them coats of skin.
I am not persuaded that it means that God killed an animal and shed blood.
I lean more to believing that A & E were light beings before the fall..and after God gave them skin. I hold that loosely...knowing that the bible is both literal history and also a spiritual book, spiritually understood. :)

Where we will divide is that I personally believe that "our God is a consuming fire" If there is any hell He is it...He is the Holy Fire.
He tests the Gold , Silver and precious stones, or the wood, hay , or stubble.

And I am prepared to 'go there' alone...I don't ask anyone else to believe what I believe. We are each free to wait on the Lord in the secret chamber, and hear what He says to us about Himself, and weigh it with what we find about Him in His Word.

Just my two cents.
 

Helen

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Where I am...and it is not a popular place to be..nevertheless I have to stand where I believe God has brought me over my 54 yr walk with Him.
Much has been unlearning what I was first taught...studying for myself...and listen to His Spirit.

I posted this earlier in the thread. I don't debate it..because I am unmovable.
When we believe 100% that we have been spoken to by God, we dare not move from that position.
I believe in the "restoration of all things" (apokatastasis), a biblical concept that has gone under many different names: universalism, universal salvation, universal restitution, universal reconciliation, ultimate reconciliation, the Greater Hope, the Pauline Gospel, the gospel of Paul, the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, universal restoration , The Greater Grace, etc etc
Those who believe in this message are found in every denomination and non-denomination.

To the ones who believe in universalism, or "the Doctrine of Inclusion" they are convinced that Jesus Christ will do what He said He came to do, = save the world, the whole world, not just a part of it.

He left the 99 sheep to find the single sheep that was lost and He will not give up until He finds and saves every single one of the sheep.
That's the truly Good News!
That is news that brings hope to everyone on this planet.
That is the only gospel worth preaching, living for and dying for.


( Grace does have accountability, there will be accounts to be be reckoned...but that is another story...dross will burn, Gold will gleam..."For our God is a consuming Fire. " He Wins. )
 
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Enoch111

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I posted this earlier in the thread. I don't debate it..because I am unmovable.
Unfortunately you are unmovable in believing a false doctrine. To claim that God gave you a personal revelation contrary to His written Word is hardly credible.

What does this verse mean?
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

Peter explains this in 2 Peter 3:13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

But at the same time that the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, we are shown the fate of those who have failed to be converted and who have remained in their sins:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Rev 21:1,7,8)

So after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established there are two groups of people shown (1) children of God and (2) all those separated from God eternally. This is AFTER the restitution or restoration of all things.
 

Helen

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Unfortunately you are unmovable in believing a false doctrine. To claim that God gave you a personal revelation contrary to His written Word is hardly credible.

What does this verse mean?
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

Peter explains this in 2 Peter 3:13: Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

But at the same time that the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, we are shown the fate of those who have failed to be converted and who have remained in their sins:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Rev 21:1,7,8)

So after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established there are two groups of people shown (1) children of God and (2) all those separated from God eternally. This is AFTER the restitution or restoration of all things.

I don't disagree with your scriptures ...I just don't read them in the same light that you read them in.
And yes, when I was younger I did study all the Greek and Hebrew meanings
of age-lasting, everlasting, eons, ages, hell and all the rest.

Pointless us talking about it,
You don't even quote me correctly...I did not claim.. " To claim that God gave you a personal revelation contrary to His written Word is hardly credible."
I have said in some post already today ( I believe to Brakelite in another thread maybe.) "that we wait upon the Lord to hear Him speak and weigh it with God's Word."
"We live by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God."
We do both, we hear Him in our spirit speak to us, and we hear Him speak through His word.
He hasn't stopped speaking, we are in a relationship with a living God...we aren't in a relationship with His book!!
You and I just read the book differently.
Another reason why I wont argue scripture...scripture is so often used as a weapon to "prove a point" ...but there are always many other scriptures that show a different light.

Very obviously in His Word He shows us that there are positions, gifts and rewards to the faithful. There are also those who do not inherit. The inheritance is for overcoming sons, not all are sons.

Anyway..I presume we will never see this the same...and that is fine.

I am not here to promote any doctrine..that is why I wont debate...I am not here to convince anyone else, but I just posted what 'I believe'. If it offends you, then I am sorry and will shut up. No sweat.
( I get offended every day when I read people writing how they see ( or don't see ) the heart of our God)

Be blessed....Helen
 
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Ac28

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brakelite,

I'd like your clarification on what you believe about the future punishment of unbelievers.

Do you consider there will be no eternal, conscious torment for unbelievers?

Is this verse excised from your Bible? '‘Then they [unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46).

So, your view is that 'they [unrighteous] are forever destroyed', which makes your beliefs that of an annihilationist.

Oz
I agree almost totally with brakelite

The unbelievers will not be part of any resurrection to life and will be eternally punished by perishing and ceasing to exist in the grave, never to be heard from again. Only believers sleep in the grave.
 

OzSpen

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I agree almost totally with brakelite

The unbelievers will not be part of any resurrection to life and will be eternally punished by perishing and ceasing to exist in the grave, never to be heard from again. Only believers sleep in the grave.

Ac28,

Your perspective disagrees with ...

Sheol, the Old Testament place for the righteous and unrighteous at death

The following examples of the use of Sheol, where people went at death in the OT use figurative language to explain the conditions there. These include:

1. Sheol has “gates” to enter and “bars” to keep one in (e.g. Job 17:16; Isa. 38:10). Thus, by use of this figurative language, Sheol is described as a realm from which there is no way to escape.

2. Sheol is described as a shadowy place, a place of darkness (Job 10:21-22; Ps 143:3).

3. Sheol is regarded as being “down”, “beneath the earth”, in “the lower parts of the earth” (Job 11:8; Isa 44:23; 57:9; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech are designed to tell us that Sheol has another existence – it is not part of this world that we live in. But there is another existence that has a different dimension. It is not sending the dead into non-existence or to be annihilated.

4. It is a place for reunion with ancestors, tribe or people (e.g. Gen 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam 12:23). Sheol is the place where all human beings go at death. Jacob looked forward to his reuniting with Joseph in Sheol. These OT references confirm that death meant separation from the living, but reunion with the departed.

5. There are indications that there could be different sections in Sheol with language such as “the lowest part” and “the highest part” (Deut 32:22).

6. What are the conditions for a person who goes to Sheol? At death a person becomes a rephaim, i.e. a ghost, shade, disembodied spirit, according to the Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries of the OT (see Job 26:5; Ps 88:10; Prov 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa 14:9; 26:14, 19). Instead of saying that human beings pass into non-existence at death, the OT states that a person becomes a disembodied spirit. Keil & Delitzsch in their OT commentary define rephaim as “those who are bodiless in the state after death” (Keil & Delitzsch n d:52).

7. Those in Sheol converse with each other and can even make moral judgments on the lifestyle of those who arrive (Isa 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek 32:21). So, they are conscious beings when in Sheol.

8. Those in Sheol do not have knowledge of what is happening for those who are still alive on earth (Ps 6:5; Eccles 9:10, etc.)

9. Some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following:

a. God’s anger (Deut 32:22). Here, Moses states of the wicked that “a fire is kindled by my anger and it burns to the depths of Sheol” (ESV).
b. Distress and anguish (Ps 116:3);
c. There is writhing with pain; they are trembling (Job 26:5). Here the Hebrew word, chool, means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth to a child.

From the OT revelation, we know that the righteous and the wicked went to Sheol at death (Gen. 37:5), but the OT believers did not have a clear understanding of what to expect in Sheol. That was left for the progressive revelation of the NT to reveal more for us. Because of this principle of progressive revelation, the OT believers did not have the information that was needed to approach death with peace and joy (see Heb. 2:14-15).

Not once does Sheol in the Old Testament mean non-existence or annihilation.
(from my article, Do evil doers experience eternal destruction or annihilation at death?)

Oz
 
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brakelite

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brakelite,

I'd like your clarification on what you believe about the future punishment of unbelievers.

Do you consider there will be no eternal, conscious torment for unbelievers?

Is this verse excised from your Bible? '‘Then they [unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life' (Matt 25:46).

So, your view is that 'they [unrighteous] are forever destroyed', which makes your beliefs that of an annihilationist.

Oz
In a nutshell, without going into the details why or where I came to this understanding, I believe unrepentant sinners sleep in death until the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years which begin after the second coming. They are then shown why they are being judged guilty, as every good and just judge will do, and in their final desperate but vain attempt at taking the city, will be destroyed by fire. This fire does not destroy all at once. Those who are more guilty, suffer "many stripes", those less so, less stripes. The fire indeed cannot be quenched. It will continue to burn until all fuel is exhausted, as in any fire. This not only cleanses the universe from sinners, but cleanses the earth from all the pollution and filth of the past 7000 years.
No where in scripture is there any suggestion, hint, explicit or implicit that sinners are granted eternal life. The wages of sin is death. Not torture. Death. It is death that is the everlasting punishment of the wicked.
 

OzSpen

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In a nutshell, without going into the details why or where I came to this understanding, I believe unrepentant sinners sleep in death until the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years which begin after the second coming.

From where in Scripture do you gain that understanding?

No where in scripture is there any suggestion, hint, explicit or implicit that sinners are granted eternal life. The wages of sin is death. Not torture. Death. It is death that is the everlasting punishment of the wicked.

Will sinners, after death, experience eternal consequences of conscious damnation with torment? If yes, or no, what is your biblical support?

Oz
 

quietthinker

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Looking at 2 Peter 3:7-11 once more, these are physical things being destroyed including ungodly men. I was addressing beyond or for a different time when ungodly spirits will be judged. The time frames can be confusing. One is physical as you pointed out and one is spiritual as I pointed out....

what do you think? Do I have it right?

APAK
I find man's construction by God is revealing re the question of spirit.

It tells us that God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life or spirit of life or the life force and man became a living soul.
Neither the dust or the breath (spirit or life force) has consciousness in its own right. Only when God combined the two was consciousness present (soul). One can for the sake of clarity and brevity say that this consciousness represents the spirit of a man. We can also use the expression 'spirit of a man' to identify his character. These are only a figures of speech. It does not imply that the spirit has consciousness independent of the body.

Death is no other than the reversal of this process. Dust back to dust and the spirit back to God who gave it thus the soul ceases to be . There is no waiting room for disembodied spirits.

I don't think it is sound exegesis to say that God has a bag full of disembodied conscious spirits within his reality that he then gives bodies to at some stage.

All who have died in earths history sleep in the dust of the earth awaiting a resurrection. The scripture calls this the first death which all who die partake of, good and bad alike.
There will be the resurrection of the just when Jesus returns. This is called the first resurrection where we meet him in the air.
At a later stage there will be resurrection of the wicked for judgement. The scripture calls this the second resurrection and their judgment (which will be death aka wiped out, non existence) the scripture calls the second death. Revelation 20:4-6
I might add, one needs to read the fore and after texts of any references as always to get the context.

Between the moment of death and the resurrection of either of the two groups there is no consciousness irrespective of wether one hour has transpired or ten thousand years. From the moment of death to the resurrection for the individual will be as if no time has transpired therefore Paul can say that he is undecided wether to lay off this body and be with the Lord or to stick around for the benefit of the Church. Paul knew the moment he closed his eyes in death will be the moment of being resurrected which of course means to be with the Lord. In fact nobody will go ahead of anybody else to meet Jesus. The resurrected dead saints and the living saints will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
 
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brakelite

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From where in Scripture do you gain that understanding?
From Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29 and Revelation 20: 4-6 I find two distinct resurrections. The first is described in detail in 1 Cor. 15:51-53 and 1 Thess.4:15-17. This event takes place at the second coming. Those resurrected come forth from their graves, while those remaining alive are changed. Each is given the gift of immortality, and shall never again die. The wicked are not raised at this time. Their resurrection from their sleep comes as the New Jerusalem descends from heaven and rests upon what was the Mount of Olives. This resurrection and what takes place subsequently is described in Revel.20.
I see no-where in scripture that teaches anyone immediately vacating their bodies and with senses and consciousness intact, move to another address. Jesus Himself described the death of Lazarus a sleep, from which He was about to awaken him. This is what takes place at the second coming and is described as such in scripture, when the archangel shouts and awakens the righteous to consciousness. There is no suggestion that some conscious sensible personality/entity soul/spirit comes from heaven and enters the raised body. In fact, quite the opposite. There are many texts which clearly declare that the person/soul that dies retains no memory or awareness of his/her surroundings nor is conscious and able to participate in anything that takes place in heaven or on earth. Eccl.9:5,6,10; Psalm 6:5;88:10-12;115:17;146:4.

Will sinners, after death, experience eternal consequences of conscious damnation with torment? If yes, or no, what is your biblical support?
Yes, there will be eternal consequences and for a time they will be conscious and experience suffering. Call it torment by all means. But it ends in death. Like the useless branches of the tree that are cut down and burned, so are sinners...but they are burned up...completely and entirely till all that is left is dust. Malachi 4:1.

The question we need to seriously ask ourselves is this. How does God glory in deliberately and with special determination and power keep sinners alive for the sole purpose of inflicting torment and suffering? Particularly when one considers that such punishment has never been taught or promised in scripture...the consequences of sin, from Genesis to Revelation, has consistently been death. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die".
While contemplating the above, we are also taught that sin separates the sinner from God. Now in the case of those who repent, we have the mercy and grace of God demonstrated by God's heavenly gift of His only begotten Son, who from the very first in Eden stepped up and offered Himself in man's place, thus saving all who seek Him from the obliteration. But those who do not repent...those who die in their sin having no Savior and no Mediator, and thus completely separated from God without anyone to intervene on their behalf...how do they manage to continue to live forever without any connection to the only source of life????