And the truth shall set you free...

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bbyrd009

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If Jesus is our King/Governor/Ruler and he tells us (all of mankind) to seek forgiveness from God, as we forgive those who trespass against us and I come along and say, "it is okay for me to kill those who don't obey my rule, how does that differ from Paul saying it? Wait, I forgot to add: "I am a minister of God for your good and will protect you as long as you submit to my rule". Now you may answer.

Anyone want to give it a try: answering my question that is.

Is it not now abundantly clear: Paul was so wrong in his Romans 13 statements?
well, but you are like dismissing that people ask for a ruler, and God GRANTED this over objections, #1; #2, you added "Is it ok for me to kill," #3 it is not the accepted path for you to just "come along and say," because you would have been chosen (over God) by the people, and #4 "i am a minister of God" is misleading, as God plainly tells us that choosing to follow a king is a rejection of God.

i am an Anarchist, ok; (think Anabaptist; Amish, Mennonite, etc) have been for years. I would dearly love to agree with you, @ Paul. But it just is not true. You might consider that God provided a sanctioned pov for people like us to expose our hearts, if you will; and i am not sure why you have come to dismissing Paul, whether you in effect deny the entire NT or the whole Bible or even God, but i suggest that your belief, whatever it is, is a reflection if your faith, meaning that your interpretations will reveal what it is you really have faith in, what your desires are, etc. Paul does not deviate from the symbology, or else he would not be in There.
 

Marymog

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I know that others must have preached on this in the past, but it seems as though very few have ever taken the time to study the context of Jesus' words "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Many people think they have been set free, but continue to live in sin, Jesus stated "whoever sins is a servant to sin", do people care at all about what Jesus teaches, or are they just interested in using the bible and Jesus to live in a state of delusion, while they amass sin upon sin: with no turning from them? What say you?
Who's truth? Who's interpretation of "what Jesus teaches" are we talking about?

Yours? Lutheran? Baptist? Maybe the Mormons got it right? Calvinist? Islam? The Catholics and Orthodox have many followers. Maybe they have The Truth about what Jesus teaches?

Some think it is not a sin to abort a baby and they use scripture to back it up. What is The Truth in scripture and who decides it?

Just some thoughts from your fellow sister in Christ.........Mary.
 
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Who's truth? Who's interpretation of "what Jesus teaches" are we talking about?

Yours? Lutheran? Baptist? Maybe the Mormons got it right? Calvinist? Islam? The Catholics and Orthodox have many followers. Maybe they have The Truth about what Jesus teaches?

Some think it is not a sin to abort a baby and they use scripture to back it up. What is The Truth in scripture and who decides it?

Just some thoughts from your fellow sister in Christ.........Mary.

May I suggest that the problem exists because Jesus's teachings have not been made the primary focus of our churches. If all we had was the teachings of Christ, there would be no confusion.

Again to reiterate Jesus's words: "if you abide in my words you shall know the truth".
 
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well, but you are like dismissing that people ask for a ruler, and God GRANTED this over objections, #1; #2, you added "Is it ok for me to kill," #3 it is not the accepted path for you to just "come along and say," because you would have been chosen (over God) by the people, and #4 "i am a minister of God" is misleading, as God plainly tells us that choosing to follow a king is a rejection of God.

i am an Anarchist, ok; (think Anabaptist; Amish, Mennonite, etc) have been for years. I would dearly love to agree with you, @ Paul. But it just is not true. You might consider that God provided a sanctioned pov for people like us to expose our hearts, if you will; and i am not sure why you have come to dismissing Paul, whether you in effect deny the entire NT or the whole Bible or even God, but i suggest that your belief, whatever it is, is a reflection if your faith, meaning that your interpretations will reveal what it is you really have faith in, what your desires are, etc. Paul does not deviate from the symbology, or else he would not be in There.

A council of men (at the council of Carthage) put the bible together, not God. Paul had a large following of those men and we are looking at history through the eyes of those men that put the bible together. Let's not forget the results of that history, with the many many sins of the organization that sprouted from the council of Niacea (just before the council of Carthage), in the Catholic church.

My bias against Paul is for many reasons, but why is it that it even matters to you? Seeing Christ and his teachings alone are what God will use to judge us on, why is one rejecting Paul an issue? Is Paul somehow necessary for ones salvation: I think not; men were saved before Paul and Paul adds nothing to the New Covenant.

Is it not true that Jesus is not the bases for much of people's faith and that is why they are so protective of Paul: because their faith is based upon his words and not Christ's alone? Maybe now you can see my problem with Paul and the church's canonizing of his words. The church has not only canonized Paul's words, but they have gone so far as to make them equal with Jesus's, as they claim they are the words of God. I would like to crawl out of my skin, by how appalled I am in the assertation. In affect the Church is guilty of idolarty.
 
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The Bible is not put together by men alone, but by the Holy Spirit guiding men. Paul's epistles are endorsed by one of the gospel writers and Peter.
Take for example "31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh" Jesus didnt write that, Matthew, Mark and Paul record it.
One cant say "The church has not only canonized Paul's words, but they have gone so far as to make them equal with Jesus's, " because Jesus didnt write the words, we get the teaching from the NT.

The Nicene Creed, which is a pretty basic creed cites scripture from the whole Bible, including the epistles of Paul. Any setting up of the gospels over and above the rest is not a Christian belief.

The usual motivation behind this lies in issues with the direct condemnation of homosexual practice found in the epistles of Paul.
 

bbyrd009

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The usual motivation behind this lies in issues with the direct condemnation of homosexual practice found in the epistles of Paul.
wherein it might be seen that homosexuality is used as a symbolic reference, the same as "two men in a bed," to describe one person. We even have "prophets gone a'whoring" etc, who of course were not actually going to prostitutes, but rather were compromising God's Word.
 

Job

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Is it not now abundantly clear: Paul was so wrong in his Romans 13 statements?
What makes them wrong?
I'm sorry if this question has already been answered, I just don't want to go back and wade through 5 pages...
 

mjrhealth

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why is one rejecting Paul an issue?
Because that makes Jesus look to be a fool in that He does not know what He is doing, men do that all teh time.

Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
 
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The Bible is not put together by men alone, but by the Holy Spirit guiding men. Paul's epistles are endorsed by one of the gospel writers and Peter.
Take for example "31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh" Jesus didnt write that, Matthew, Mark and Paul record it.
One cant say "The church has not only canonized Paul's words, but they have gone so far as to make them equal with Jesus's, " because Jesus didnt write the words, we get the teaching from the NT.

The Nicene Creed, which is a pretty basic creed cites scripture from the whole Bible, including the epistles of Paul. Any setting up of the gospels over and above the rest is not a Christian belief.

The usual motivation behind this lies in issues with the direct condemnation of homosexual practice found in the epistles of Paul.

Actually, people followed Jesus and his gospel before either the bible, or Paul. I don't think you realize the heresy you embrace, by stating: "Any setting up of the gospels over and above the rest is not a Christian belief." The teachings of Christ, found in the gospels, is the bases of Christianity period and only a heretic would claim otherwise.
 
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Because that makes Jesus look to be a fool in that He does not know what He is doing, men do that all teh time.

Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

You mean like making Judas one of the 12? Maybe Paul serves another purpose, like concealing the true message; have you not read in Proverbs 25 verse 2: It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

As I showed already, Paul was rejected by all Asia and the Apostle John in the end, and there is far more credible evidence to believe John actually wrote Revelations, than there is for believing Peter wrote 2 Peter (which I have no doubt he didn't).
 

Guestman

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What will happen to those who reject theocratic appointments, either directly from God or from Jesus Christ, such as Jesus choosing Paul as an apostle ? The account at Number 16 answers this question, wherein a Levite named Korah, and Reubenites Dathan, Abiram and On rejected God's appointment of Moses as leader for Israel and Aaron as high priest.

Thus they "gathered against Moses and Aaron", challenging Jehovah's selection for their assigned positions, saying: "We have had enough of you !"(Num 16:3) God started by causing the earth to open up around the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, in which Dathan and Abiram's wives and little children also took their stand against Moses and Aaron.(Num 16:27)

Moses tell these ones, that by rejecting him and Aaron that "if Jehovah does something extraordinary with them and the ground opens and swallows them and everything that belongs and they go down alive into the Grave, you will certainly know that these men have treated Jehovah disrespectfully".(Num 16:30)

The account says that "as soon as he finished speaking these words, the ground beneath them split apart. And the earth opened and swallowed then up......so that they perished from the midst of the camp".(Num 16:31, 32, 34)

Then the account says concerning Korah and the 249 men who followed him, that "a fire came out from Jehovah and consumed the 250 men offering the incense".(Num 16:35)

For their disrespect of God's appointed ones, these ones suffered the ultimate penalty, a judgment by Jehovah that results in everlasting death.
 

mjrhealth

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As I showed already, Paul was rejected by all Asia and the Apostle John in the end, and there is far more credible evidence to believe John actually wrote Revelations, than there is for believing Peter wrote 2 Peter (which I have no doubt he didn't).
Paul was hiding nothing, Jesus used Him to show us teh way it is supposed to be, but men want teh easy way ans such is teh religion that men love more than Jesus who is supposed to be Lord of Lords.
 
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What will happen to those who reject theocratic appointments, either directly from God or from Jesus Christ, such as Jesus choosing Paul as an apostle ? The account at Number 16 answers this question, wherein a Levite named Korah, and Reubenites Dathan, Abiram and On rejected God's appointment of Moses as leader for Israel and Aaron as high priest.

Thus they "gathered against Moses and Aaron", challenging Jehovah's selection for their assigned positions, saying: "We have had enough of you !"(Num 16:3) God started by causing the earth to open up around the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, in which Dathan and Abiram's wives and little children also took their stand against Moses and Aaron.(Num 16:27)

Moses tell these ones, that by rejecting him and Aaron that "if Jehovah does something extraordinary with them and the ground opens and swallows them and everything that belongs and they go down alive into the Grave, you will certainly know that these men have treated Jehovah disrespectfully".(Num 16:30)

The account says that "as soon as he finished speaking these words, the ground beneath them split apart. And the earth opened and swallowed then up......so that they perished from the midst of the camp".(Num 16:31, 32, 34)

Then the account says concerning Korah and the 249 men who followed him, that "a fire came out from Jehovah and consumed the 250 men offering the incense".(Num 16:35)

For their disrespect of God's appointed ones, these ones suffered the ultimate penalty, a judgment by Jehovah that results in everlasting death.

What about one who teaches it is okay to kill with the sword, when Jesus condemns such behaviour, what will happen to them?
 

Job

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Now how is it God tells Samuel that God will not be reigning through Kings and yet Paul says they are God's ministers?
God said He would not reign through the "king" that the people wanted. He brought them out of Egypt and they turned their backs on Him. They put their trust in other gods. They abandoned the Lord and demanded a king to rule over them. So God said, "Give them what they want, I just won't be reigning through that king". << (paraphrased)

Nowhere does it mention the plural "Kings". This was a single incident, a one time event.

1 Samuel 8
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.
7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

No contradiction there.
.
 
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God said He would not reign through the "king" that the people wanted. He brought them out of Egypt and they turned their backs on Him. They put their trust in other gods. They abandoned the Lord and demanded a king to rule over them. So God said, "Give them what they want, I just won't be reigning through that king". << (paraphrased)

Nowhere does it mention the plural "Kings". This was a single incident, a one time event.

1 Samuel 8
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord.
7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also.
9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”

No contradiction there.
.

Job, you want so bad to justify Paul and thus your beliefs, that you will mishandle all the evidence that is clearly before you. What will you do with these words from Daniel 9?

6Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

7O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 8O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.9To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 10Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

Notice Daniel states God's laws are set, not by their Kings, but by God's servants the Prophets.

Now try and excuse Paul some more, while you are blind to everything about earthly governments being from Satan and not from God.

God said they have rejected him, by asking for a king. Do you think only one king is the issue and not the idea of man ruling them: instead of God ruling them through his prophets? Maybe you can explain how they have rejected God by asking for a King and how that same statement "they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them", is no longer valid: by the same kings they asked for.

Go ahead and twist God's words to satisfy your beliefs: I am looking forward to hearing more. Of course you could always admit you and Paul erred, but that would mean Paul's words are not inspired by God, and that, despite all the evidence to the contrary, is something you are unwilling to do, so instead you will take others words, who really actually spoke for God, and make them a lie.
 
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Job

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Job, you want so bad to justify Paul and thus your beliefs, that you will mishandle all the evidence that is clearly before you. What will you do with these words from Daniel 9?
I can show you all kinds of "Well what about this scripture?"....but first we need to get past the contradiction in 1 Samuel.

Post the passage from 1 Samuel that you believe Paul contradicted and then post the passage of the contradiction from Paul. If it's there I'll see it and so will everyone else. We need to substantiate your claim before we move forward....wouldn't you agree? There's no point in doing a back and forth if nothing has been established.

Bring forth the evidence and let's have a discussion.
.
 

mjrhealth

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Go ahead and twist God's words to satisfy your beliefs:
IS that not wehat you are doing, twisting the words written in teh bible to satify your problems with Paul. Take it up with Jesus, since hHe was teh one that called Paul, Got tell Him He is incapable of choosing men to do His work,