And the truth shall set you free...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Paul created hierarchy structures, which Christ forbade of his followers.
actually Paul did not do this, unless he is interpreted logically. Paul was actually presenting personal instruction, couched in symbolic language, and if you do not accept that you personally are a temple, you will go on misinterpreting Paul when he talks about "church" or some other spiritual concept.
Paul micromanaged his followers which Christ never did.
Paul is presenting a model that one may use only for their personal growth, wherein your beliefs are represented as "followers," being as how beliefs descend from one's faith.
Paul discriminated against women, telling women: "obey your husband's as unto the Lord"; we have one master: Christ, not husbands. Paul says: "if a woman is to learn anything let her ask her husband" and is a shovenist; Christ treated men and women with the same regard.
you have a female, soul, and a male, spirit, and should understand that you are to reconcile Paul and Christ, not reject one or the other. Paul's authorship of most of the NT is not some accident or mistake, and fiction--which you accuse the NT of being--simply does not propagate in the manner that you imagine it might, with all due respect.
Paul calls men who kill others ministers of God.
if you will quote the passage, it might be seen that there is another way to understand that also. These "others" are not people as you interpret, but another way to illustrate that we are to "kill" untoward or amoral concepts that we might currently believe.
Paul exalts himself to the status of Apostle; Christ states the greatest of men shall abase himself (as mother Teresa did).
ya, at least until she needed palliative care herself, when she ran to it with open arms lol. And Paul did not exalt himself, that is a load of hooey. You have simply chosen to interpret from a point of view that will obscure the meaning of what you are reading.
Paul creates a gospel about Christ and hardly mentions even one of Jesus's teachings; Jesus said: make disciples (those disciplined in the teaching of a master: Christ) of all nations, teaching them to observe his teachings. Paul clearly states he preached a new, self-made gospel;
etc. This is all crap. It is plainly recorded that Peter and Paul agreed in principle, but of course you do not want to contemplate that passage, being as how it does not fit with your desire.
Paul held other's sins against them (Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works)
all will be rewarded according to their works, yet you accuse Paul of some deviation here. Paul is a trap set for specifically this kind of thinking, with all due respect. If you try to read Paul logically, you will fall into logic traps, which is the point. Paul does not disagree with Christ in any regard; they are simply presenting spiritual concepts from different points of view.
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
actually Paul did not do this, unless he is interpreted logically. Paul was actually presenting personal instruction, couched in symbolic language, and if you do not accept that you personally are a temple, you will go on misinterpreting Paul when he talks about "church" or some other spiritual concept.
Paul is presenting a model that one may use only for their personal growth, wherein your beliefs are represented as "followers," being as how beliefs descend from one's faith.
you have a female, soul, and a male, spirit, and should understand that you are to reconcile Paul and Christ, not reject one or the other. Paul's authorship of most of the NT is not some accident or mistake, and fiction--which you accuse the NT of being--simply does not propagate in the manner that you imagine it might, with all due respect.
if you will quote the passage, it might be seen that there is another way to understand that also. These "others" are not people as you interpret, but another way to illustrate that we are to "kill" untoward or amoral concepts that we might currently believe.
ya, at least until she needed palliative care herself, when she ran to it with open arms lol. And Paul did not exalt himself, that is a load of hooey. You have simply chosen to interpret from a point of view that will obscure the meaning of what you are reading.
etc. This is all crap. It is plainly recorded that Peter and Paul agreed in principle, but of course you do not want to contemplate that passage, being as how it does not fit with your desire.

all will be rewarded according to their works, yet you accuse Paul of some deviation here. Paul is a trap set for specifically this kind of thinking, with all due respect. If you try to read Paul logically, you will fall into logic traps, which is the point. Paul does not disagree with Christ in any regard; they are simply presenting spiritual concepts from different points of view.

Or maybe you are just blind and will make excuses for all Paul represents, to hold on to your false beliefs that the book put together at the council of Carthage (A.K.A. the bible) is God's word and not corrupted. While Jesus's teachings are actually from God and will lead a man to living right with God, Paul's words are definitely contrary to Jesus's and have kept the church and world from God.
 
Last edited:
Jan 19, 2017
72
52
18
43
USA, FL
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was once against Paul, but after reading his letters in the new testament, I found them very spiritual and inspiring, and also practical for using in my daily life to avoid sin.

No one is perfect. God's standards are much higher than our standards. It is because of the Heavenly Father's great love and mercy he sent His son to die on the cross to pay the debt for our sins. We must repent and turn away from our sins as the first step in becoming a Christian. The second step is to accept God's gift of grace and put your faith in Jesus Christ who shed his blood a once-for all sacrifice for sin. We must thank the Lord and Jesus Christ for what they, the Holy Trinity have done for us. The third step in becoming a Christian is baptism, them they should join a church and get help at learning about Christ and the Bible and everything the Christian faith is all about.

It is good to rebuke a brother or sister in Christ with love and gentleness if they are sinning. To save someone from the error of the ways is a godly thing. The hard part is to do it lovingly and gently. In one book in the new testament there is a story of a man in the church who is fornicating with his father's wife, his stepmother. The people were proud, and the man refused to repent and stop sinning. Paul said, "Hand this man over to Satan," which meant he would no longer have the protection of the church and would be subject to Satan's wiles and frightening spirits harassing him, he would be in the world and not have the love and friendship of the church. It is hoped the man and his stepmother would repent and stop fornicating.

There are tiny little sins and big major sins. Read the ten commandments if you want to know what God sees as major sin. We think that taking the Lord's name in vain is something trivial and insignifigant idol worship is done when we put celebrities music stars actors, actresses, sports stars, Pets, cars, girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses, other people we love, our house or things or furniture, a job or hobby, TV show, movie, video game, above the Lord God, and this is easy to do. It's easy to have 'gods' above the true God and master of the universe.


Honoring your mother or father, how many of us have been rude or disrespectful to our parents? How many of us have coveted what someone else has? How many has told a white lie or stolen a paper clip, pencil, pen or rubber band from work or school?

We must constantly battle against sin, and strive for perfection, all the while depend on Jesus Christ and his word, his love to set us free. Let Christ change you into a new better person. He will set you free from your sins!
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Or maybe you are just blind and will make excuses for all Paul represents, to hold on to your false beliefs that the book put together at the council of Carthage (A.K.A. the bible) is God's word and not corrupted. While Jesus's teachings are actually from God and will lead a man to living right with God, Paul's words are definitely contrary to Jesus's and have kept the church and world from God.
hmm, maybe, but i spent a bunch of years disliking Paul myself, and i can only tell you that i now understand that the problem was mine, one of perception. I certainly cannot deny that Paul is vastly misrepresented, ok, i mean i guess most Christians believe that PAul was suicidal or craved death, in order to be present with the Lord, too. Doesn't make it true though.

Paul and Christ can easily be reconciled, and all it takes is a change of mind. The kingdom truths are merely being represented from 2 different points of view, just as you might have conflicting opinions on a matter, and the differences resolve when it is understood that you are not reading history so much as an account of history, told in such a way as to provide personal instruction, that even tails with other Holy Writ, Books outside of accepted Canon, Dao parables, etc.
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
hmm, maybe, but i spent a bunch of years disliking Paul myself, and i can only tell you that i now understand that the problem was mine, one of perception. I certainly cannot deny that Paul is vastly misrepresented, ok, i mean i guess most Christians believe that PAul was suicidal or craved death, in order to be present with the Lord, too. Doesn't make it true though.

Paul and Christ can easily be reconciled, and all it takes is a change of mind. The kingdom truths are merely being represented from 2 different points of view, just as you might have conflicting opinions on a matter, and the differences resolve when it is understood that you are not reading history so much as an account of history, told in such a way as to provide personal instruction, that even tails with other Holy Writ, Books outside of accepted Canon, Dao parables, etc.

I spent a lot of years studying Paul's teachings and one day I was reading a book that contradicted something Paul taught and couldn't accept it, until a year later when I saw that the author was right and Paul was wrong.

When a person understands that governments are nothing more than a group of men, who use force to control other men, then the words, Satan tempted Jesus with, on the mountain in the wilderness, make sense; Satan offered Jesus authority over all the governments on earth: if Jesus would bow down and worship him. Governments, outside of Christ's, are Satan's tools: not God's. Hear the words of John from the book of Revelations chapter 13, starting in verse 1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, (these 10 horns are 10 kings) and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4And they worshipped the dragon/serpent/satan which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Daniel chapter 7: "23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High"...

Now clearly we can see both Revelations and the book of Daniel ascribe the kingdoms of this world to Satan.

Jesus came to establish the kingdom of God within man, not a kingdom of man, but of God: which does not use force as Satan and his earthly kingdoms do.

Jesus taught us to forgive men, not to kill them for their sins. But how is it that Paul makes this statement in Romans 13: "1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works(if this statement wasn't so pathetically ignorant it would be funny; Rulers, by their very existence, are a terror to all who refuse to submit to their rule.), but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same(like Jesus, the apostles and early Christians did: who were thrown to the lions; oh wait, my bad, they all got tortured and killed. Rulers don't care about good, they care about maintaining power and therefore any that they see as a threat to their rule they eliminate.): 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Clearly Paul tells us those who kill others with the sword are ministers of God, while Jesus condemns men for returning evil for evil. Daniel and Revelations clearly show us earthly governments get their power from Satan, and then there is this from 1Samuel 8: 4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, 5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. 7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Now how is it God tells Samuel that God will not be reigning through Kings and yet Paul says they are God's ministers? Is God ruling through earthly kings or not? Let me hear any one who claims Paul didn't contradict Jesus and 1Samuel explain how Paul did not, as well as how Paul's exemption for men killing others for their sins, doesn't contradict Jesus's teachings on forgiveness.
 
Last edited:
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
i'm skeptible here because i have found no case in which PAul was not also written dialectically, or departed from the correct symbology. Easy to misinterpret logically, yes; wrong, no.

The book I read was Leo Tolstoy's "what then must we do". Tolstoy showed how governments were evil, but seeing I knew Paul wrote what he did, I could not accept Tolstoy's premise: it took me a year; once I saw Tolstoy was right and Paul was wrong, I started to research others who came to the conclusion Paul made false statements and I came across some very compelling arguments. Don't get me wrong, Paul is also very misrepresented I.M.O., but the arguments I make are the ones I cannot reconcile to Christ.

I have no doubt Paul is the culprit which has taken the message of Christ way off track and it is my goal to help others see what I see, so they can gain the clarity in Christ that I have: now that the fog has been lifted.

Be at peace.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
which does not use force as Satan and his earthly kingdoms do.
k check to all that

(if this statement wasn't so pathetically ignorant it would be funny)
here you have reflected your heart on the matter, and this reveals your bias. I am going to end up completely agreeing with you here, and you still aren't going to like it lol. Because

You are perfectly free to eschew government, with the understanding that you are supposed to fulfill the Law under Grace anyway, and after all the vast majority of Law is like the minimum standard, and even if you maybe don't understand some law that seems to be impinging on your rights or whatever, when it is explained to you, it is usually pretty common sense herd stuff, right.

Granted we are in an Empire in Decline/decadence now, and exceptions are rife ok, but the point is that there is plenty of room to live on the margins, and while you will be rejected by society, Anarchy a la 1Sam8 is a viable option. So your objection becomes revealed as maybe one of desiring the society, while kvetching about the system that propagated it--the world.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works(if this statement wasn't so pathetically ignorant it would be funny), but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same(like Jesus, the apostles and early Christians did: who were thrown to the lions; oh wait, my bad, they all got tortured and killed): 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."
(and someone is telling me about Absolute Truth in another thread right now, lol, oh the irony)So, right here you have yourself a dichotomy, right, in living color, a representation of government that is both sort of right, and completely wrong. Because Government does keep quite a bit of Chaos (which Anarchy is not) at bay, right, even though you are not giving them credit for that part.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Now how is it God tells Samuel that God will not be reigning through Kings and yet Paul says they are God's ministers?
"Listen to them, and give them a king."
Is God ruling through earthly kings or not?
hmm, to that i would say that God is the Ruler of the Earth, and is not the ruler of the world; however the kings you define as "earthly" are actually worldly, part 2 being that you are born perfect, and sinless, but into the world, and so you are faced with another dichotomy, another question, when dang you came to the Bible looking for answers, huh. You want to know.

For what it's worth i could hook you up with a guy who claims to have found some absolute truth in Scripture, although i cannot verify this sorry.

Anyway, my pov is that you should give Caesar his, and after all what law is it that is rubbing you wrong, that you would like a pass on--prolly none, right. The point being that you practically have no complaints against government; as long as you leave the world. Yes, "(if this statement wasn't so pathetically ignorant it would be funny)," but that should be no concern of yours. Your required interaction with government is to obey just laws and to pray for your leaders, and i find no compelling Witness that says any other...intercourse is required, someone correct me if i am wrong there.

You are not required to participate, or agree. If any of it is a problem for you, then this is a clear sign that you are in the world to that extent, and the situation is clearly whispering its own solution; you just don't want to do that. Which i totally get ok. Quitting money was very hard.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Let me hear any one who claims Paul didn't contradict Jesus and 1Samuel explain how Paul did not, as well as how Paul's exemption for men killing others for their sins, doesn't contradict Jesus's teachings on forgiveness.
ok well you inserted "killing others for their sins," that is not what the concept of "sword of justice" or even "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" necessarily require, the concept is "justice." And you can only reap what you sow anyway, so any argument you might have should be reframed as one against justice.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
or if you are so outraged at that injustice then b.a.m. um, ha prove it, i guess, let's start:

do you have any dollars in your pocket right now?
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
"Listen to them, and give them a king."
hmm, to that i would say that God is the Ruler of the Earth, and is not the ruler of the world; however the kings you define as "earthly" are actually worldly, part 2 being that you are born perfect, and sinless, but into the world, and so you are faced with another dichotomy, another question, when dang you came to the Bible looking for answers, huh. You want to know.

For what it's worth i could hook you up with a guy who claims to have found some absolute truth in Scripture, although i cannot verify this sorry.

Anyway, my pov is that you should give Caesar his, and after all what law is it that is rubbing you wrong, that you would like a pass on--prolly none, right. The point being that you practically have no complaints against government; as long as you leave the world. Yes, "(if this statement wasn't so pathetically ignorant it would be funny)," but that should be no concern of yours. Your required interaction with government is to obey just laws and to pray for your leaders, and i find no compelling Witness that says any other...intercourse is required, someone correct me if i am wrong there.

You are not required to participate, or agree. If any of it is a problem for you, then this is a clear sign that you are in the world to that extent, and the situation is clearly whispering its own solution; you just don't want to do that. Which i totally get ok. Quitting money was very hard.


Arguing both sides if the argument doesn't answer anything, the simple truth is that there is no way to reconcile Paul's words with those whom Paul contradicts.
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ok well you inserted "killing others for their sins," that is not what the concept of "sword of justice" or even "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil" necessarily require, the concept is "justice." And you can only reap what you sow anyway, so any argument you might have should be reframed as one against justice.
You want justice for your sins or forgiveness?
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
or if you are so outraged at that injustice then b.a.m. um, ha prove it, i guess, let's start:

do you have any dollars in your pocket right now?

Do you not deal with any problem by first understanding it and theorizing how to change it? Close your eyes and continue to live in the darkness you love.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Arguing both sides if the argument doesn't answer anything, the simple truth is that there is no way to reconcile Paul's words with those whom Paul contradicts.
ha, there it is again, the simple truth, lol...:killinme

granted it would require a change of mind, but i assure you that Paul is laying down Word, just from another perspective, and just as you are to fulfill the law even though you crave grace you must reconcile Paul with Christ in order to rejoin the two sticks etc and it is not that hard ok. "and there are no good women" does not mean that every female is somehow bad or inferior, when symbolically it is plainly one's female or soul in its relation to the temple that your male spirit is building that is being referred to. A historical account would be a dead work; yet we debate like every single concept in Scripture, right.
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
the dialectical perspective of Scripture, wherein no questions are answered and only more questions are given, wrapped in parables told as histories and for all you know they are but so what, cannot be interpreted by a logical thinker correctly, as they will pick a side and thus reveal themselves (separating joints from marrow). We have examples in Acts of the logical thinking of the Early Church, and the belief then highly in vogue that Jesus was to shortly return--no different from today, or Ezekiel's day--and the ensuing communal living arrangement etc this predicated, but it's a bit harder to connect the belief with them definitively, but conclusions can be drawn because Paul was collecting alms for them a couple years later, after all lol. the party was over, iow, in a sense. or the honeymoon or whatever. the flakes who were in it only because it was supposed to be emminent were gone by then, etc.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
um the point there being that people are confounded using logic to understand God, i guess, and it can be argued that Christ actually appeared at the Rise of Logic.
 
May 25, 2017
72
7
8
56
Windsor
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ha, there it is again, the simple truth, lol...:killinme

granted it would require a change of mind, but i assure you that Paul is laying down Word, just from another perspective, and just as you are to fulfill the law even though you crave grace you must reconcile Paul with Christ in order to rejoin the two sticks etc and it is not that hard ok. "and there are no good women" does not mean that every female is somehow bad or inferior, when symbolically it is plainly one's female or soul in its relation to the temple that your male spirit is building that is being referred to. A historical account would be a dead work; yet we debate like every single concept in Scripture, right.

If Jesus is our King/Governor/Ruler and he tells us (all of mankind) to seek forgiveness from God, as we forgive those who trespass against us and I come along and say, "it is okay for me to kill those who don't obey my rule, how does that differ from Paul saying it? Wait, I forgot to add: "I am a minister of God for your good and will protect you as long as you submit to my rule". Now you may answer.

Anyone want to give it a try: answering my question that is.

Is it not now abundantly clear: Paul was so wrong in his Romans 13 statements?
 
Last edited: