And who is part of or is to be a part of the Body of Christ?

[marks]

Sorry without looking it up I haven't a clue who Mr. or Sir Anderson is.

Sir Robert Anderson, one time head of Scotland Yard, and sometimes theologian. He wrote The Coming Prince, also The Silence of God, which I found especially interesting.

He is dispensational in his view, which led him to comment towards the founding of a modern Israel well before it happened, as he saw that indicated in the prophecies.

But I certainly agree with you, not all share the same definition of "Christian".

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think this notion that we can be born from God, then cease to be His children, to be crippling towards a true spiritual walk. It focuses us on ourselves, instead of on Jesus.

I'm honestly not exactly sure where I am with it all. The whole 3 heavens, 3 levels of the ark, 4 rivers flowing out of Eden thing that some have helped me to see makes me say, yeah, okay, "saved." But then as a friend of mine says, saved to what?

If we work so hard to get ahead in this life, we would be stupid to want to be a pauper in the next life, because here is temporary and "there" is eternal.

The whole losing some sort of "unspecified rewards" isn't something I really find in the bible. And to be told, we won't know what rewards we've lost until we get there is scary, its like....lets pass this thing so we can see what's in it! No thanks Nancy!

Give up your life to find it MEANS something.

You must abide in Me MEANS something.

Putting your hand to the plow and turning back as being unfit for the kingdom MEANS something.

 

[marks]

I'm honestly not exactly sure where I am with it all. The whole 3 heavens, 3 levels of the ark, 4 rivers flowing out of Eden thing that some have helped me to see makes me say, yeah, okay, "saved." But then as a friend of mine says, saved to what?

Hi SBG,

For me, the parable of the sower is important to understand these things. I have not comment really on the 4 rivers, 4 destinies, I don't really see things that way.

In the parable of the sower, I see that only the seed in the good ground is reborn to fruit-bearing life. Even the seen in the thorny ground, though it grow, it bears no fruit, that is, the Word that is sown bears no fruit.

Young picks this up in his translation:

Matthew 13:22 "And that sown toward the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, do choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful."

The seed in the rocky soil, an emotional experience, but the Word never penetrates:

Matthew 13:21 "and he hath not root in himself, but is temporary, and persecution or tribulation having happened because of the word, immediately he is stumbled."

And of course the seed on the path is immediately removed, and the seed in the good soil is the Word planted in good ground, they hear the Word, they receive it, and they bear fruit.

I see these not describing 4 destinies, rather 4 responses to the Gospel, one of which is true rebirth.

And Jesus asked the disciples how they would understand all the parables if they didn't understand this one? If I look at the other parables with this in mind, various responses to the Gospel, but not all resulting in actual rebirth, this seems to work out very well.

I know people have different points of view on this.

The next one Jesus expained to the disciples, the wheat and tares, it was the same thing. True, and Not True, who looked the same until the fruitfulness, or lack thereof, was seen.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Hi amadeus,

I would disagree with this. Now, whether there are many who believe this, and who likewise remain immature, we can only speculate wheter this reason or that reason may be the reason. that being said . . .

My knowing that I am safe in Jesus, that He's got me right where He wants me, and nothing will ever change that, actually does just the opposite in me. It liberates me into a new live, actually much like what episkopos describes, though we have a disagreement over how this happens, just the same, the walk in the Spirit where we simply flow through live as it were carried in the wind of the Spirit.

And in fact, I've watched so many people, once they come to understand this, suddenly see how God intended us not to live according to judgments and decrees, but according to love and life. I see them being to live anew, with a liberty and freedom that releases them into the will of God, amazing deliverance!

Law empowers sin. Romans 7. Law increases sin. Romans 4, I think. Law makes sin utterly sinful. Law bring condemnation - only. God has freed us from Law. This is part of being freed from sin.

I think this notion that we can be born from God, then cease to be His children, to be crippling towards a true spiritual walk. It focuses us on ourselves, instead of on Jesus.

I mean, even in humans, once a child is born, that never undoes itself. So why should it with such a more perfect relationship? But to think otherwise, well, it is the truth that sets us free.

Much love!

Thank you for you kindly gentle replies even when you disagree. While I don't believe in OSAS, I am not hard nosed against it as some seem to be. But, I don't want to get into that can of worms on this thread. What I really believe is complex but it is also simple.

 

[marks]

Thank you for you kindly gentles replies even when you disagree. While I don't believe in OSAS, I am not hard nosed against it as some seem to be. But, I don't want to get into that can of worms on this thread. What I really believe is complex but it is also simple.

And I too appreciate your good will and good manners! No, we need not pop the top on that can!

I believe Biblical truth can be very complex, and yet simply expressed.

I find that as I come to realize "more profound" truths, I find them plainly stated in the exact wording. Blows my mind! I've really learned to just read it and believe it.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Sir Robert Anderson, one time head of Scotland Yard, and sometimes theologian. He wrote The Coming Prince, also The Silence of God, which I found especially interesting.

He is dispensational in his view, which led him to comment towards the founding of a modern Israel well before it happened, as he saw that indicated in the prophecies.

But I certainly agree with you, not all share the same definition of "Christian".

Much love!

Thanks for the information. While I have small library I don't read many non-Bible sources but neither do I necessarily exclude the possibility of reading them. Another brother here [ @Willie T ] has sent me several and I am presently reading from one of them from time to time as I have the incentive to do so.

This changing definition of what a Christian is probably will be the basis eventually for the further restriction upon and even removal of religious freedoms protected under the Bill of Rights [first 10 Amendments to US Constitution]. It would hardly be the first time the original intent of the law has been changed that way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You say you don't see 4 destinies but only 4 responses, yet each of those responses lead to a destiny, so...

 

[marks]

If we work so hard to get ahead in this life, we would be stupid to want to be a pauper in the next life, because here is temporary and "there" is eternal.

The whole losing some sort of "unspecified rewards" isn't something I really find in the bible. And to be told, we won't know what rewards we've lost until we get there is scary, its like....lets pass this thing so we can see what's in it! No thanks Nancy!

Give up your life to find it MEANS something.

You must abide in Me MEANS something.

Putting your hand to the plow and turning back as being unfit for the kingdom MEANS something.

Coming back to this . . .

I look at passages like 1 Corinthians 3, about how we build the church, the believer around us, with what materials, gold, silver, gemstones, wood, hay, stubble, what is burned is loss, what remains is reward. And I'm sorry, I'm not going to be much more help on that one, others may want describe our rewards, but I don't find too much clearly indicated. I don't know what it will be, but I believe what it says.

I come here and I can build up, and I can tear down. Building up helps other, builds them, builds our relationships with each other and with God. In this is reward. What form? It will be enough to be in unity. I think God has glory in store.

Brings us to 2 Corinthians 4, affliction works glory, God's design. He wants us to have glory. There is a verse, I can't think of where right now, where God tells us to desire this glory. Daniel 12 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever.

He builds affliction into our lives to produce the life of Christ in us, so we will build the right way, and gives us reward for building, and gives us glory for the affliction. His ways are so good for us. Then each will receive praise from God (1 Cor 4)

Gotta run, can go on forever!

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

You say you don't see 4 destinies but only 4 responses, yet each of those responses lead to a destiny, so...

Three lead to the same destiny, and the focus seems to be, to me, the response itself.

The parable of the wheat and tares show 2 destinies. The judgment of the sheep and goats, the great white throne, each of these it seems to me there are two possible ends given in each.

Again, how I see it.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah. I see how you see it. I have seen too much else that I can't unsee.

You know where I think it began for me? Two verses.

The first one was where God says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. It made no sense to me. He always removed the righteous before He destroyed. A man even said something like, far be it from you to destroy the righteous. And in every story, He did not destroy the righteous. So why was He saying, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked? I STILL don't completely understand it, but was what first disturbed me.

The second verse is the one where it says Sodom would fare better in the day of judgement than people who heard but didn't listen and saw miracles but didn't see. I remember thinking if both go to hell, how is one better off? STILL don't completely understand that one either. But if two men go to hell but one is better off, we are missing something.

But those two verses made me see that there's more than some teach.

 

[Nancy]

Thank you for you kindly gentles replies even when you disagree. While I don't believe in OSAS, I am not hard nosed against it as some seem to be. But, I don't want to get into that can of worms on this thread. What I really believe is complex but it is also simple.

"kindly gentles replies even when you disagree."
Kind of like yourself, John

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And I too appreciate your good will and good manners! No, we need not pot the top on that can!

I believe Biblical truth can be very complex, and yet simply expressed.

I find that as I come to realize "more profound" truths, I find them plainly stated in the exact wording. Blows my mind! I've really learned to just read it and believe it.

Much love!

Lol. You find them plainly stated after He shows them to you! They really weren't plainly stated before that. How many times have you read a verse, sometimes 20 times, and then one time you read it again and you suddenly see it differently? You wonder how you always missed it. But He opened that scripture for you at that time.

 

[marks]

Yeah. I see how you see it. I have seen too much else that I can't unsee.

You know where I think it began for me? Two verses.

The first one was where God says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. It made no sense to me. He always removed the righteous before He destroyed. A man even said something like, far be it from you to destroy the righteous. And in every story, He did not destroy the righteous. So why was He saying, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked? I STILL don't completely understand it, but was what first disturbed me.

The second verse is the one where it says Sodom would fare better in the day of judgement than people who heard but didn't listen and saw miracles but didn't see. I remember thinking if both go to hell, how is one better off? STILL don't completely understand that one either. But if two men go to hell but one is better off, we are missing something.

But those two verses made me see that there's more than some teach.

OK, maybe I understand better what you are saying. I can't think of where He says, "I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked", can you point me to that, so I can take a look?

But if you are talking about degrees of torment in hell, yes, I see that in Scripture, along with degrees of glory in the eternal. I think these all correlate to life now.

The rich man and Lazarus, you had nice things, now you are in torment, in 2 Cor 4, afflictions work for us glory, seems to be looking at two sides of the same principle.

But I don't see any in the church as over any others in the church, in the eternal. Are there levels of hell? I don't know.

And I can think of certain places, for instance, that David will be king over Israel, and the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes. So there is a kingdom structure appointed for Israel in the restoration. But that is Israel, not the church.

There does seem to be greater punishment for greater sin, and there does seems to be greater reward and glory as we sacrifice ourselves more and more to do His will.

I don't think of these as "destinies", so maybe it's just a matter or words?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Yeah. I see how you see it. I have seen too much else that I can't unsee.

You know where I think it began for me? Two verses.

The first one was where God says, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. It made no sense to me. He always removed the righteous before He destroyed. A man even said something like, far be it from you to destroy the righteous. And in every story, He did not destroy the righteous. So why was He saying, now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked? I STILL don't completely understand it, but was what first disturbed me.

The second verse is the one where it says Sodom would fare better in the day of judgement than people who heard but didn't listen and saw miracles but didn't see. I remember thinking if both go to hell, how is one better off? STILL don't completely understand that one either. But if two men go to hell but one is better off, we are missing something.

But those two verses made me see that there's more than some teach.

HI SBG

In both cases it is a lack of holiness in the time of visitation of God. Righteousness is NOT holiness. People in the OT were expected to be righteous. But also to recognize holiness when God was present. Some of the righteous do so as to purify their garments...and some don't which lowers their standing from righteous into filthiness.


What if Moses had not removed his shoes before the presence of God in the burning bush? Could God have used Him for His good and holy purposes?

So then the people of Jerusalem were visited by the holy man Jesus. But they didn't recognize Him...and He exposed people who up to that time would have been considered as righteous. So He came to bring division....the righteous from the righteous. He came to bring the fires of testing. To separate a father from his son, a mother from her daughter...and this over the holy Person of God.

So we can think we love God..that is until we either love His visitation or hate it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh...in the time of visitation...okay, I will think on that.

I do see a difference between righteousness and holiness. I see that no distinction is made between the two in Christendom. We are TAUGHT by our leaders not to make a distinction between them. But God said to Israel, you will once again make a distinction between what is holy and what is not.

I'm thinking on the passage in the OT that talks about like....if a priest brushes up against a dead body will he be defiled, if he's carrying meat in the sleeve of his robe and this or that happens, is he defiled, etc...well, I can't remember the verse but maybe I will understand it now so I'm going to go find it.

 

[faithfulness]

So we can think we love God..that is until we either love His visitation or hate it.

Whoa...Word. WADR

 

[illini1959]

"And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

"... even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Eph 5:23
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, ..." Eph 5:23-24

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:12-14

Hello

If I understand the question correctly, it's who is included in the body of Christ - is that right?

The body of Christ is the church - the ekklesia - the whole body of Christian believers as your first quote in Col 1 indicates.

Who's included in the church (the body) -

1 Cor 12:27 (Paul is speaking to believers "brethren") Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

So, Christ's body - the church - is made up of born again believers in Him -

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. (another verse you posted)

The symbolism of marriage is used as a comparison of Christ and His church:

Eph 5:25-32 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

The bride can't be separated from the church because the bride is the church.

Do you see the dots connecting? I tried to show how Christ is the head of the body and we are that body.....etc.

Thank you~

 

[Enoch111]

If we were the Body now, why would there be so much confusion and disagreement even among those who undoubted love God?

That is hardly the way to understand God's truth. Once we get past the notion that we contribute something to our salvation, everything becomes crystal clear.

"SALVATION IS OF THE LORD"
1. It is God and the Holy Spirit who give sinners the supernatural New Birth.
2. It is God the Son who comes to indwell the believer.
3. It is Christ in you the hope of glory
4. It is God the Holy Spirit who places every believer into the Body of Christ.
5. It is God the Holy Spirit who indwells and empowers believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior.
6. It is God and Christ who perfect believers at the Resurrection/Rapture.

So every genuine believe is in the Body of Christ RIGHT NOW. We accept God's truth by faith, not by sight.

And since there are no amputations in the Body of Christ (a spiritual entity) the Body and the Bride are one and the same.

 

[Nancy]

OK, maybe I understand better what you are saying. I can't think of where He says, "I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked", can you point me to that, so I can take a look?

But if you are talking about degrees of torment in hell, yes, I see that in Scripture, along with degrees of glory in the eternal. I think these all correlate to life now.

The rich man and Lazarus, you had nice things, now you are in torment, in 2 Cor 4, afflictions work for us glory, seems to be looking at two sides of the same principle.

But I don't see any in the church as over any others in the church, in the eternal. Are there levels of hell? I don't know.

And I can think of certain places, for instance, that David will be king over Israel, and the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes. So there is a kingdom structure appointed for Israel in the restoration. But that is Israel, not the church.

There does seem to be greater punishment for greater sin, and there does seems to be greater reward and glory as we sacrifice ourselves more and more to do His will.

I don't think of these as "destinies", so maybe it's just a matter or words?

Much love!

Hi Mark, I just looked up these scriptures, so I suppose it has just become even more curious!

God destroys both the righteous and the wicked.
Job 9:22
This [is] one [thing], therefore I said [it], He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 7:15
All [things] have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just [man] that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked [man] that prolongeth [his life] in his wickedness.

Ezekiel 21:3
And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I [am] against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

God destroys the wicked, not the righteous.
Ezekiel 18:8-9
He [that] hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, [that] hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 33:18-19
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

 

[marks]

Lol. You find them plainly stated after He shows them to you! They really weren't plainly stated before that. How many times have you read a verse, sometimes 20 times, and then one time you read it again and you suddenly see it differently? You wonder how you always missed it. But He opened that scripture for you at that time.

Just so!

But those same words were there all along, I just didn't accept them for exactly what they said. Like one we like to remind each other of, we are dead to sin. There was a time I read that in some sort of detached way, accepting that my connection to sin was changed, but failing to see the truth of that statement.

A most profound revelation . . . those words mean exactly what they say.

Another, "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand" Rom 5:1; Most profound revelation, that there is nothing I need do but trust Jesus, and I am in this grace, standing.

So much energy people spend trying to be good, be smart, smarter than the other guy, trying to curry favor with God, think up good things to do, when all we really need to do is trust that Jesus already took care of everything. And knowing that all sin is removed for all time, the finished work of Christ, we trust that, and find that we have all we were searching for.

I know you know these things . . . just get me started!

But just to say, I always find that God's revelations to me reveal, not alter, what is written.

Much love!