And who is part of or is to be a part of the Body of Christ?

[Nancy]

I'm honestly not exactly sure where I am with it all. The whole 3 heavens, 3 levels of the ark, 4 rivers flowing out of Eden thing that some have helped me to see makes me say, yeah, okay, "saved." But then as a friend of mine says, saved to what?

If we work so hard to get ahead in this life, we would be stupid to want to be a pauper in the next life, because here is temporary and "there" is eternal.

The whole losing some sort of "unspecified rewards" isn't something I really find in the bible. And to be told, we won't know what rewards we've lost until we get there is scary, its like....lets pass this thing so we can see what's in it! No thanks Nancy!

Give up your life to find it MEANS something.

You must abide in Me MEANS something.

Putting your hand to the plow and turning back as being unfit for the kingdom MEANS something.

Hi Stunned!
Not sure what you mean here?
"The whole losing some sort of "unspecified rewards" isn't something I really find in the bible. And to be told, we won't know what rewards we've lost until we get there is scary, its like....lets pass this thing so we can see what's in it! No thanks Nancy! "

 

[marks]

So we can think we love God..that is until we either love His visitation or hate it.

Hi Episkopos,

This reminds me of C.S. Lewis, from Mere Christianity:

"God is going to invade, all right: but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else - something it never entered your head to conceive - comes crashing in; something so beautiful to some of us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left? For this time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down when it has become impossible to stand up."

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

I'm honestly not exactly sure where I am with it all. The whole 3 heavens, 3 levels of the ark, 4 rivers flowing out of Eden...

I can't imagine why Nancy put a "like" on this since obviously your head is spinning with all the things you have brought up.

The essential principle in spiritual matters (just like in temporal matters) is this: KEEP IT SIMPLE.

You will need to study the Bible personally and in-depth to find the answers to all your questions (and that does not happen overnight). In the meantime KEEP IT SIMPLE.

 

[marks]

So He came to bring division....the righteous from the righteous.

Hi Episkopos,

Wondering about what you said here, the righteous from the righteous? Is this to say, the righteous from the so-called righteous, something like that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hi Stunned!
Not sure what you mean here?
"The whole losing some sort of "unspecified rewards" isn't something I really find in the bible. And to be told, we won't know what rewards we've lost until we get there is scary, its like....lets pass this thing so we can see what's in it! No thanks Nancy! "

Nancy Pelosi, on Obamacare. "We have to pass it, so we can see what's in it".

Blech!

 

[Nancy]

Nancy Pelosi, on Obamacare. "We have to pass it, so we can see what's in it".

Blech!

Ooooh...hahaha! Was shaking my head here, especially when Enoch said he did not know why I "liked" SBG's post.
Thanks!

 

[Episkopos]

God destroys both the righteous and the wicked.
Job 9:22
This [is] one [thing], therefore I said [it], He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

The word for perfect in this passage is "tam"...meaning innocent of evil. So how can God destroy the innocent?

Well the devil also was Tam when he was created. That is until a certain time where he was tested and failed.

So then it is the visitation itself that tests a person. Does God take away the Tam from the Tam? Well up to that point the person had no reason to fail in that regard. But a visitation ups the ante.

The bible also says...with the Tamim God will be Tamim.

Ps. 18:25 With the kind You show Yourself kind; With the blameless (Tamim) You show Yourself blameless (Tamim);

So then holiness imposes a challenge on what to that point might be perfectly innocent....until it is tested.

there is a just [man] that perisheth in his righteousness,

Exactly like that!

So there are many Christians like this. As long as you don't hold out the perfect standard of holiness that is takes to abide in Christ...these will be happy. But as soon as you seem to place holiness and the walk in the Spirit out of their immediate grasp...these turn on you.

It is an offense to men that there is perfection in Christ...if they don't seem to have it already. Why is it so offensive to have to go to God to get more grace? Among these there is a scandal in this.

 

[Episkopos]

So every genuine believe is in the Body of Christ RIGHT NOW. We accept God's truth by faith, not by sight.

And since there are no amputations in the Body of Christ (a spiritual entity) the Body and the Bride are one and the same.

In your own theory that is. But in practice people remain people.

You repel the truth rather than accepting it. So then you are trying to be the filter of truth with your own mind. And many do this...which makes for body parts laying around....not coming together.

So then the Body is disconnected....disjointed. Out of ignorance, stubborness and a lack of faith.

If God did not spare the natural branches but "amputated" them from the holy vine...as Paul says...so He will also do to us...unless we get it right and stop with all the fleshly thinking.

 

[Enoch111]

You repel the truth rather than accepting it. So then you are trying to be the filter of truth with your own mind.

You are the last person to make such remarks, since you have been manufacturing your own theology all along. Just like the cults.

 

[Episkopos]

Ez. 28:15 From the day you were created you were blameless (tamim) in your ways until wickedness was found in you.

This is describing the fall of the devil.

Likewise a novice in the faith should not be put in a position of authority lest he too come under the condemnation of the devil.

So we can be innocent of evil...until a hidden source of wickedness be revealed in us.

The fear of the Lord will keep that from permanently disabling us. So we are to be wise and depart from iniquity.

 

[Episkopos]

You are the last person to make such remarks, since you have been manufacturing your own theology all along. Just like the cults.

In your skewed opinion based on armchair religion. The irony in this is that you would have God to be incapable of doing in you anything that you can't already do. In the biblical world...that's just unbelief.

So you are waiting to be redeemed at some later unspecified date...and railing against they who have encountered the Lord and been redeemed by Him so as to enter into His kind of life.

The words that I speak are from the Spirit and fully backed by the bible from many different perspectives. Both in shadow and in testimonial form....from the bible. (as well as experience)

When has God directed you by the Spirit? Like it says happened to the brethren in the bible? Being actually led by the Spirit...not opinions?

The Holy Spirit spoke "Go to a street called strait"...to a brother called Ananias.

Now if you had been led by the Spirit, even once, you wouldn't lie about me as you do.

 

[amadeus]

Hello

If I understand the question correctly, it's who is included in the body of Christ - is that right?

The body of Christ is the church - the ekklesia - the whole body of Christian believers as your first quote in Col 1 indicates.

Who's included in the church (the body) -

1 Cor 12:27 (Paul is speaking to believers "brethren") Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

So, Christ's body - the church - is made up of born again believers in Him -

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. (another verse you posted)

The symbolism of marriage is used as a comparison of Christ and His church:

Eph 5:25-32 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

The bride can't be separated from the church because the bride is the church.

Do you see the dots connecting? I tried to show how Christ is the head of the body and we are that body.....etc.

Thank you~

And thank you for posting here. I agree that Jesus is the head of the body and God's people are that Body. That does readily... for me anyway... bring about a definite conclusion that the Bride is equal to the Body rather than being a group brought out of the Body:

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number
My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

The "dove" alone to me seems to be the Bride but those others mentioned: queens, concubines virgins, are not but I believe at least some of are to saved, that is part of the Body.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hi Mark, I just looked up these scriptures, so I suppose it has just become even more curious!

God destroys both the righteous and the wicked.
Job 9:22
This [is] one [thing], therefore I said [it], He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 7:15
All [things] have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just [man] that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked [man] that prolongeth [his life] in his wickedness.

Ezekiel 21:3
And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I [am] against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

God destroys the wicked, not the righteous.
Ezekiel 18:8-9
He [that] hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, [that] hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 33:18-19
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

I had just found ezekiel 23 when I got busy with customers. I have some things to say about it that I saw. But didn't have time to look for the verse I WAS actually searching for.

I will definitely be back here tonight!
We can find all of the verses and put them together.

 

[illini1959]

And thank you for posting here. I agree that Jesus is the head of the body and God's people are that Body. That does readily... for me anyway... bring about a definite conclusion that the Bride is equal to the Body rather than being a group brought out of the Body:

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number
My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

The "dove" alone to me seems to be the Bride but those others mentioned: queens, concubines virgins, are not but I believe at least some of are to saved, that is part of the Body.

You're welcome

I'm not following the connection w/the verses from the Song of Solomon - could you please clarify? Thanks!

 

[marks]

Ooooh...hahaha! Was shaking my head here, especially when Enoch said he did not know why I "liked" SBG's post.
Thanks!

Hi Mark, I just looked up these scriptures, so I suppose it has just become even more curious!

God destroys both the righteous and the wicked.
Job 9:22
This [is] one [thing], therefore I said [it], He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 7:15
All [things] have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a just [man] that perisheth in his righteousness, and there is a wicked [man] that prolongeth [his life] in his wickedness.

Ezekiel 21:3
And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I [am] against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked.

God destroys the wicked, not the righteous.
Ezekiel 18:8-9
He [that] hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, [that] hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he [is] just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 33:18-19
When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

Hi Nancy, thank you for copying these out!

Ecclesiates 9:2-6
2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 2:15-17
15 Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

To the wise, to the fool, to the righteous, to the wicked, there is one thing that happens to all, they all die, in this world.

Indeed God has assured us that He is righteous and fair in all things.

In Ezekiel 21:3 . . .

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked."

They will all be cut off from the land, this seems to me that it can mean that they will be killed, or that they will be removed from the land. But the language certainly sounds strong!

But I guess I don't see any of these as resulting in some judgmental destruction of the redeemed. I'm not sure where people divide the body of Christ into different levels, or multiple destinies, or anything like that, as it's not something I've seen in Scripture, and I've not really heard details of what people might think about this.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

I had just found ezekiel 23 when I got busy with customers. I have some things to say about it that I saw. But didn't have time to look for the verse I WAS actually searching for.

I will definitely be back here tonight!
We can find all of the verses and put them together.

Customers, busy =GOOD!

 

[amadeus]

That is hardly the way to understand God's truth. Once we get past the notion that we contribute something to our salvation, everything becomes crystal clear.

"SALVATION IS OF THE LORD"
1. It is God and the Holy Spirit who give sinners the supernatural New Birth.
2. It is God the Son who comes to indwell the believer.
3. It is Christ in you the hope of glory
4. It is God the Holy Spirit who places every believer into the Body of Christ.
5. It is God the Holy Spirit who indwells and empowers believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior.
6. It is God and Christ who perfect believers at the Resurrection/Rapture.

So every genuine believe is in the Body of Christ RIGHT NOW. We accept God's truth by faith, not by sight.

And since there are no amputations in the Body of Christ (a spiritual entity) the Body and the Bride are one and the same.

I won't go into your 6 listed points because the necessary details of my comments would probably derail my own thread. In any case I do not see convincing if connected to your conclusion... although apparently you do.

You say there are no amputations in the Body of Christ but that is almost another subject alone' Your statement does bring a question to mind: Who or what is it that prunes or burns up the excessive baggage that we each carry in order to prepare us so that we might be fitly joined together with other parts of the Body? Do none of us as parts have any role to play in accomplishing that?

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, thank you for copying these out!

Ecclesiates 9:2-6
2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 2:15-17
15 Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise? Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.
16 For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.
17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

To the wise, to the fool, to the righteous, to the wicked, there is one thing that happens to all, they all die, in this world.

Indeed God has assured us that He is righteous and fair in all things.

In Ezekiel 21:3 . . .

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked."

They will all be cut off from the land, this seems to me that it can mean that they will be killed, or that they will be removed from the land. But the language certainly sounds strong!

But I guess I don't see any of these as resulting in some judgmental destruction of the redeemed. I'm not sure where people divide the body of Christ into different levels, or multiple destinies, or anything like that, as it's not something I've seen in Scripture, and I've not really heard details of what people might think about this.

Much love!

Yes indeed, it is very strong language!
"But I guess I don't see any of these as resulting in some judgmental destruction of the redeemed. I'm not sure where people divide the body of Christ into different levels, or multiple destinies, or anything like that, as it's not something I've seen in Scripture, and I've not really heard details of what people might think about this."

I too am not sure at all about the differing "levels" and do not find anything scriptural pertaining to it. To me it causes much confusion, and can lead to questioning our faith.
In Him,
nancy

 

[marks]

To me it causes much confusion, and can lead to questioning our faith.

Yeah.

 

[Episkopos]

The word for perfect in this passage is "tam"...meaning innocent of evil. So how can God destroy the innocent?

Well the devil also was Tam when he was created. That is until a certain time where he was tested and failed.

So then it is the visitation itself that tests a person. Does God take away the Tam from the Tam? Well up to that point the person had no reason to fail in that regard. But a visitation ups the ante.

The bible also says...with the Tamim God will be Tamim.

Ps. 18:25 With the kind You show Yourself kind; With the blameless (Tamim) You show Yourself blameless (Tamim);

So then holiness imposes a challenge on what to that point might be perfectly innocent....until it is tested.



Exactly like that!

So there are many Christians like this. As long as you don't hold out the perfect standard of holiness that is takes to abide in Christ...these will be happy. But as soon as you seem to place holiness and the walk in the Spirit out of their immediate grasp...these turn on you.

It is an offense to men that there is perfection in Christ...if they don't seem to have it already. Why is it so offensive to have to go to God to get more grace? Among these there is a scandal in this.

It is interesting to note that Jacob was also Tam...as it says in the Genesis. He wrestled with the angel and came out Shalem...having an intimate acquaintance with God. But he had to struggle with his tamim to get there. So then for him the struggle was successful. But for many it isn't. Jacob persevered in his faith in God until he was blessed...like Abel and the sacrifice he offered to God that was likewise accepted.

As the Lord declares. You will seek Me and find Me because you will have sought me with all your hearts.