Angels and Devils

[Timtofly]

OK I'm not going to keep re-posting the Hebrew translation of the word devil.
I believe 3 times is plenty.
Hugs

So why keep forcing the usage of a word that could mean devil onto humans?

Do you think all goats are devils? Or are there no devils at all, only goats in the OT?

 

[Timtofly]

It's an analogy.

You need to learn to expand your thinking.
I can show you, but I can't make you see.

Everything that happened in the garden is played out, over and over again throughout the entire bible.
Genesis is the Grand overview from beginning to end.
Each consecutive book is that same Genesis only it is in greater detail.
When you come to the book of Revelation that is the Grand overview from beginning to end.
The only difference between Genesis and Revelation is Genesis is of the flesh, while Revelation is of the spirit.

It's the same story, yes the names and places change, but the foundation, the morals, the principles are all the same.
The same pitfalls, the same mistakes, the same successes, played out over and over across many generations.

History repeats itself. You only need to be willing to see it.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Alpha and Omega.. world without end.. eternal life.. forever and ever and ever.

The garden of Eden has always been there. It is still there today. It's called Baghdad, Iraq.
It's the same place Nimrod built the tower of Babel.
It's the same place God calls Zion.
It's the same place Christ was crucified.

Abraham came from the land of Ur. Ur is Babylon. He travelled to Egypt with Sarah and then returned to the promised land.
Isaac found Rebecca in Syria. Right next door to Iraq.
Gen 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
Paddân, pad-dawn'; from an unused root meaning to extend; a plateau; or פַּדַּן אֲרָם Paddan ʼĂrâm; from the same and H758; the table-land of Aram; Paddan or Paddan-Aram, a region of Syria:—Padan, Padan-aram.

Jacob was living in the land when there was a famine and went down to Egypt. They hung there for 400 years until they were sent back to the promised land.
It's not called the promised land for nothing.
The promised land is the garden of eden.. in the physical landscape of things.

But in the spiritual landscape, The garden of Eden, Paradise, New Jerusalem is in the heart.

Hugs

I apologize for missing your human mythological explanation of God's Word.

I will remain ignorantly blissful in God's understanding of God's Word, and leave human mythological imaginations for the more scholarly minded scientific types.

I think it more interesting that we are finishing the 7th Millennium, and about to behold God's wondrous 8th Millennium. Even if life is so dull it keeps repeating itself every Millennium.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The word demons is not mentioned once in the Bible, so I'm sticking with devils.

Huh…?
1140 (daimonion) is used frequently (over sixty times ) as compared to the rare 1142 (daímōn).]
in English - demon…

 

[Ziggy]

Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

In the OT what are devils?
The KJV translates Strong's H8163 in the following manner: kid (28x), goat (24x), devil (2x), satyr (2x), hairy (2x), rough (1x).

They sacrificed unto kid/goat, (devils is the word in translation) satyr, hairy and rough.
These your choices..
what was they sacrificing to?

Were they sacificing to animals? were these animals "new gods" whom the fathers feared not?
What are devils in the OT?
I'm not talking demon spirit evil filled people mentioned in the NT.
I'm going by the translation in Hebrew in the OT.
What did they think they was offering to?

And why would the fathers fear animals?

Is it possible that they were sacrificng to Canaanites?
Whom their fathers feared not?
Why is this relevant?
Because Esau who was "hairy and rough" took wives from Canaan's lineage. And Canaan was cursed.

Gen 26:34 And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:
Hittite = "descendant of Heth"
the nation descended from Heth, the 2nd son of Canaan; once inhabitants of central Anatolia (modern Turkey), later in north Lebanon
Gen 36:2 Esau took his wives of the daughters of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibamah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite;

Iraq, Syria, Turkey.. busy area for sure.

When reading the OT one sees through the eyes of flesh.
People judged people according to their lineage.
They were strangers, foreignors, and possibly devil's if you had enough rough hairy skin on your body and came from the lineage of a cursed son.

Superstitions...
People went to war over superstitions.

And I know you know what I'm saying.
Your just playing hard to get,

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Huh…?
1140 (daimonion) is used frequently (over sixty times ) as compared to the rare 1142 (daímōn).]
in English - demon…

I ran a word search in blueletterbible for the word demon and didn't find it.
I never looked into the greek translation of the word devils.
My bad.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

I apologize for missing your human mythological explanation of God's Word.

I will remain ignorantly blissful in God's understanding of God's Word, and leave human mythological imaginations for the more scholarly minded scientific types.

I think it more interesting that we are finishing the 7th Millennium, and about to behold God's wondrous 8th Millennium. Even if life is so dull it keeps repeating itself every Millennium.

There is no mythology in it.
That's what I'm trying to say. It's not santa claus or a unicorn or a leprechaun.
You just not listening to what I'm saying.
But that ok.
I still HUG you anyways.

HUGS

 

[Ziggy]

I ran a word search in blueletterbible for the word demon and didn't find it.
I never looked into the greek translation of the word devils.
My bad.
Hugs

I usually only use the KJV and there were no listings for it in that particular version.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

24 When the time came for her to give birth,there were twin boys in her womb. 25 The first to come out was red, and his whole body was like a hairy garment; so they named him Esau. 26 After this, his brother came out,with his hand grasping Esau’s heel; so he was named Jacob.

 

[Ziggy]

24 When the time came for her to give birth,there were twin boys in her womb. 25 The first to come out was red, and his whole body was like a hairy garment; so they named him Esau. 26 After this, his brother came out,with his hand grasping Esau’s heel; so he was named Jacob.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Hebrew devils:
STRONGS H8163:

sâʻîyr, saw-eer'; or שָׂעִר sâʻir; from H8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:—devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Lev 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, H8163 and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

Nothing mythological about it really.
Hugs

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, I’m hopelessly lost. This might require some pistachio pudding. It’s my spinach, lol.

 

[Ziggy]

Okay, I’m hopelessly lost. This might require some pistachio pudding. It’s my spinach, lol.

So Jacob are the sheep and Esau are the goats.
Two manner of people. Jews and Gentiles.
We talking about angels having sex, and that morphed into devils.
Probably my fault.
I said, devils may represent the lineage of Esau because he has the same characteristics of being rough and hairy as the word devils is translated in Hebrew in the OT.
Then came sacrificing to devils, to new gods, newly risen up that the fathers feared not.
Well, The elder served the younger according to the prophecy Rebecca recieved, until the people gave the power over to the Canaanites and began worshipping them.
Canaanites being "devils" because that nation was cursed. And Esau married the daughters of Canaan.
So you have a double whammy of not only do you look like a goat (as opposed to a sheep)
You also married into a curse. Because Canaan was cursed for Ham's sake. I don't know why but he was.

So we're talking about devils and how that word was interpreted in the OT and what they meant by it.
Not what we read in the NT as having rebellious belligerent evil spirits, although Esau did get a bit uptight after having his birthright and his blessings taken from him.

So was Esau a devil at heart?
also cursed by the flesh..

the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.
Esau is the goat.
Hugs

 

[EloyCraft]

Because Canaan was cursed for Ham's sake. I don't know why but he was.

Ham saw the nakedness of his father. That is a euphemism for incestuous sexual relations.
Lev.18
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness

Mrs Noah was the new 'mother of all the living '.
Ham was attempting to one up his brothers and steal some of his father's glory. Noah cursed Canaan because he is not Canaan's father. Born of the desire to control the power of fertility Canaan became the ancestor of idolaters who worship fertility gods and build temples of prostitution for the worship of the power of fertility and the demons pretending to be gods. Canaan's descendants echo the seduction of the sons of God to sexual sin with the daughters of men. Satan working destruction through Ham and Canaan after the flood like he did Cain and Lamech before the flood. Destroy the order God intends for human life before it can get off the ground. Jesus did say he is a murderer from the beginning.

That's the reason for the curse.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no mythology in it.
That's what I'm trying to say. It's not santa claus or a unicorn or a leprechaun.
You just not listening to what I'm saying.
But that ok.
I still HUG you anyways.

HUGS

I attempted to point out what this was with the Greek concept of "Pan".

Evidently that was of no interest to you.

These devils you are trying to make literal are just fantasy imaginations. Just like idolatry which is the concept you are hinting at.

An idol is just an useless image. The word devil in Scripture is just an useless word image to go along with the useless physical image.

Those images could have looked like anything from four footed beast to whatever the mind could imagine.

There still was only one Devil and that is Satan, and he is real. Not a human imagination. Satan is not santa claus, nor does he have only one horn is my point.

Neither was Esau an offspring of Satan, even if the body he was born with evoked such a response from onlookers. You have to remember that Esau was born at least 400 to 500 years, if not more, before the time of the influence of the Greeks and all this worship of devils came about.

the sheep on the right and the goats on the left.
Esau is the goat.

Only one problem with this. Israel is not Esau. Jesus is not separating two nations. Jesus is splitting up Israel into sheep and goats, not Isaac.

 

[Ziggy]

I attempted to point out what this was with the Greek concept of "Pan".

I understand you.
Pan is a mythological creature conjured up like a boogy man by man's imaginations.

What I'm trying to say is, was Esau looked upon as a boogey man because he was rough and hairy as a goat?
And the Hebrew translation for devils is (rough, hairy, goat, )
So was they calling Esau and his prodigy, devils, because they fit the physical description of the word.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand what I'm saying.
I'm not calling Esau, Pan. But perhaps those in the neighborhood who didn't like Esau called him a boogy man, a devil.
You ever come in contact with someone that is so unpleasant that you think to yourself, what a witch.
Doesn't mean the person is a real witch or a mythological witch, simply means she bares the characteristics of one.
And you apply those attributes to that uncouth person by calling them a witch.
That's what we call slang.

Can you read what I say before jumping to conclusions?
We are in AGREEMENT..
Hugs

 

[Timtofly]

I understand you.
Pan is a mythological creature conjured up like a boogy man by man's imaginations.

What I'm trying to say is, was Esau looked upon as a boogey man because he was rough and hairy as a goat?
And the Hebrew translation for devils is (rough, hairy, goat, )
So was they calling Esau and his prodigy, devils, because they fit the physical description of the word.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand what I'm saying.
I'm not calling Esau, Pan. But perhaps those in the neighborhood who didn't like Esau called him a boogy man, a devil.
You ever come in contact with someone that is so unpleasant that you think to yourself, what a witch.
Doesn't mean the person is a real witch or a mythological witch, simply means she bares the characteristics of one.
And you apply those attributes to that uncouth person by calling them a witch.
That's what we call slang.

Can you read what I say before jumping to conclusions?
We are in AGREEMENT..
Hugs

I am the opposite of jumping to conclusions.

My point is Esau and those words set the precedent. Not the other way around.

The church was martyred for pointing out and warning people about Satan and Pan.

You have put a lot of post up about devils and demons and them being "gods" as a separate creation from humans. I am pointing out they are not. They are only natural born humans with big egos.

But Satan was symbolized as this hairy evil half person half beast entity. That is why I pointed out what John wrote in Revelation 13.

Satan can and does just plagiarize what God already set as precedent. But when something goes contrary to nature, it could mean Satan disguises himself in some unnatural way to mislead people. And those disguises are sometimes found in Scripture. So pointing them out is not starting some new doctrine, but just pointing them out.



As for the sons of God term, and calling humans "gods" or "devils" , they are two totally different and unrelated Scriptural truths. Even if "gods" was a play on words by Jesus, it does not mean humans are anything else than natural, and certainly not supernatural. Being a son of God does not nor did not ever make humans gods as how ancient humans thought about gods. Unfortunately the words used to convey one idea have other uses totally opposite in meaning than what was being conveyed in thougt.

The ancients were just as wrong about God's creation, as some people are about what they read in Scripture. In fact both the ancients and posters today are both wrong in the same way about the same exact historical accounts. There literally is nothing new in creation, probably not even technology.

The whole point is that God set the precedent, and not in bad ways. Satan came along and corrupted natural ordinary creation.

I have tried to point out where demonic activity comes from, but people seem to want to accept Greek pagan mythology over truths from God's Word. They take what Satan has corrupted, and accept that as sensible reasoning.

Perhaps they do not even realize it because Satan is so subtle, they miss the more subtle points of reality? And the fact that many words were corrupted by how influential the Greeks were on Scripture, including a lot of the Hebrew terms that were defined correctly centuries before the Greek influence. The Greek influence that Satan himself inserted into Greek society. The only reason why I say that, is because Paul pointed that out when writing to the Thessalonians who were Greeks. Paul told them Satan had already been at work, and he was not talking about the Jews.

 

[Ziggy]

You have put a lot of post up about devils and demons and them being "gods" as a separate creation from humans. I am pointing out they are not. They are only natural born humans with big egos.

I agree.
I'm done
Hugs

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I see the OT as the shell, and the NT as the seed inside the shell.
Or shall I say, I see the OT as the chaff.

thank you for sharing this. I will not forget ever reading your perspective there. It was unforgettable to me.

 

[Davy]

I understand you.
Pan is a mythological creature conjured up like a boogy man by man's imaginations.

What I'm trying to say is, was Esau looked upon as a boogey man because he was rough and hairy as a goat?
And the Hebrew translation for devils is (rough, hairy, goat, )
So was they calling Esau and his prodigy, devils, because they fit the physical description of the word.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand what I'm saying.
I'm not calling Esau, Pan. But perhaps those in the neighborhood who didn't like Esau called him a boogy man, a devil.
You ever come in contact with someone that is so unpleasant that you think to yourself, what a witch.
Doesn't mean the person is a real witch or a mythological witch, simply means she bares the characteristics of one.
And you apply those attributes to that uncouth person by calling them a witch.
That's what we call slang.

Can you read what I say before jumping to conclusions?
We are in AGREEMENT..
Hugs

CRAZY. You should actually read... your Bible more instead coming up with crazy speculations.

 

[Ziggy]

CRAZY. You should actually read... your Bible more instead coming up with crazy speculations.

I do read it, that's why I understand it.

You just come out of nowhere like a bee sting.
It's ok though, I have salve.

Hugs