Another Premillennial absurdity

[Timtofly]

In the reference here to “firstfruits,” Paul is effectively outlining an existing truth. He is stating how Christ is currently “the firstfruits,” rather than merely was or will be. The reference here to “the firstfruits” therefore is simply made in the context of what Christ is today rather than describing the actual resurrection event that occurred years before Paul wrote this Epistle. That’s why Paul could assuredly write, many years after Christ’s physical resurrection, “NOW is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” Paul was simply testifying of the present reality that Christ has “now” become the firstfruits of them that sleep.

The passage is not really about Christ being presented as made alive. Adam's offspring is made alive by Christ. You read the verses like this:

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall only Christ be made alive. Only Christ: Christ the firstfruit; afterward only Christ at his coming."

That is your version, because you leave out the OT redeemed made alive at the Cross. You conflate the Second Coming, and you deny handing back creation a thousand years later. You don't have Christ handing back a complete and glorious creation sans death. You have Christ handing God a burnt offering.

 

[Timtofly]

You totally avoided every single point i presented. You have to!

And you totally avoided every single point in my post. You have to.

 

[WPM]

And you totally avoided every single point in my post. You have to.

It is noticeable that your avoidance has increased to the max. I will take that as an admission that you have no rebuttal to Amil.

 

[Timtofly]

It is noticeable that your avoidance has increased to the max. I will take that as an admission that you have no rebuttal to Amil.

So is yours at this point. You cannot even address a post, but yell avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

 

[WPM]

So is yours at this point. You cannot even address a post, but yell avoidance, avoidance, avoidance.

Avoidance and name-calling is a notable sign of defeat. That is where Premils end up before throwing up the white flag.

 

[Timtofly]

Avoidance and name-calling is a notable sign of defeat. That is where Premils end up before throwing up the white flag.

And yet you keep avoiding. Just waiting for the name calling to start.

 

[WPM]

And yet you keep avoiding. Just waiting for the name calling to start.

In the reference here to “firstfruits,” Paul is effectively outlining an existing truth. He is stating how Christ is currently “the firstfruits,” rather than merely was or will be. The reference here to “the firstfruits” therefore is simply made in the context of what Christ is today rather than describing the actual resurrection event that occurred years before Paul wrote this Epistle. That’s why Paul could assuredly write, many years after Christ’s physical resurrection, “NOW is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” Paul was simply testifying of the present reality that Christ has “now” become the firstfruits of them that sleep.

 

[Timtofly]

In the reference here to “firstfruits,” Paul is effectively outlining an existing truth. He is stating how Christ is currently “the firstfruits,” rather than merely was or will be. The reference here to “the firstfruits” therefore is simply made in the context of what Christ is today rather than describing the actual resurrection event that occurred years before Paul wrote this Epistle. That’s why Paul could assuredly write, many years after Christ’s physical resurrection, “NOW is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” Paul was simply testifying of the present reality that Christ has “now” become the firstfruits of them that sleep.

Paul was telling us how Adam's dead flesh is made alive. Describing Christ was not the thrust of the point.

The firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ. You are avoiding the point Paul made over the preference of your own interpretation of Scripture.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order"

All the OT redeemed were waiting for the Cross to be made alive. At the Cross they were physically resurrected, made alive. They are the firstfruits in Christ, was Paul's point.

Of course Christ is the firstfruits. Christ is the Word. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. Christ is many things throughout Scripture. No one is denying that interpretation of Scripture that I am aware of in all of these postings on this forum. My point is that you are denying the OT redeemed were made alive at the Cross by the power of the Resurrection and the Life.

Afterward, those at the Second Coming will be made alive who are in Christ on the earth.

Then comes the end after the reign of Christ brings creation under subjection. The whole Day of the Lord is the reigning process.

The fiery destruction and restoration is how the Day of the Lord comes. Not necessarily all that is involved in the Day of the Lord is destruction. Restoration and subduing the earth is also involved. John points out the length and that Satan is also bound.

 

[WPM]

Paul was telling us how Adam's dead flesh is made alive. Describing Christ was not the thrust of the point.

The firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ. You are avoiding the point Paul made over the preference of your own interpretation of Scripture.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order"

All the OT redeemed were waiting for the Cross to be made alive. At the Cross they were physically resurrected, made alive. They are the firstfruits in Christ, was Paul's point.

Of course Christ is the firstfruits. Christ is the Word. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega. Christ is many things throughout Scripture. No one is denying that interpretation of Scripture that I am aware of in all of these postings on this forum. My point is that you are denying the OT redeemed were made alive at the Cross by the power of the Resurrection and the Life.

Afterward, those at the Second Coming will be made alive who are in Christ on the earth.

Then comes the end after the reign of Christ brings creation under subjection. The whole Day of the Lord is the reigning process.

The fiery destruction and restoration is how the Day of the Lord comes. Not necessarily all that is involved in the Day of the Lord is destruction. Restoration and subduing the earth is also involved. John points out the length and that Satan is also bound.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

 

[Timtofly]

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

That is who Paul was talking about:

"But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. )"

 

[WPM]

That is who Paul was talking about:

"But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things. )"

LOL. More avoidance. You make it up as you go. That is called adding unto Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. More avoidance. You make it up as you go. That is called adding unto Scripture.

So who was resurrected at the Cross? Matthew made it up and Paul made it up as they wrote, no? They added to the Scriptures, no? I am just repeating what they wrote. You are avoiding Scriptures, and making things up by denying the truth of God's Word.

 

[WPM]

So who was resurrected at the Cross? Matthew made it up and Paul made it up as they wrote, no? They added to the Scriptures, no? I am just repeating what they wrote. You are avoiding Scriptures, and making things up by denying the truth of God's Word.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

 

[Timtofly]

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

After you give explicit Scripture stating Amil is a thing.

 

[WPM]

After you give explicit Scripture stating Amil is a thing.

Your argument has descended into futility and childishness.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

 

[Timtofly]

Your argument has descended into futility and childishness.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

Once again, I gave Scripture. Not explicit enough for you, nor did you even reply. Just this bully play 20 question mo you have going.

When you give explicit Scripture stating that the OT redeemed will be resurrected in some future event, will you have more explicit Scripture than I already gave. And I did not even quote Matthew 27.

There was only a resurrection at the Cross, and it was not Jesus, as that was the moment Jesus declared, "It is finished". So you explain what firstfruits even mean when it comes to a resurrection. With your explicit Scripture. Or address the Scripture I have given, which is more explicit than the imaginary eschatology called Amil.

If I have nothing, you have even less than nothing.

 

[WPM]

Once again, I gave Scripture. Not explicit enough for you, nor did you even reply. Just this bully play 20 question mo you have going.

When you give explicit Scripture stating that the OT redeemed will be resurrected in some future event, will you have more explicit Scripture than I already gave. And I did not even quote Matthew 27.

There was only a resurrection at the Cross, and it was not Jesus, as that was the moment Jesus declared, "It is finished". So you explain what firstfruits even mean when it comes to a resurrection. With your explicit Scripture. Or address the Scripture I have given, which is more explicit than the imaginary eschatology called Amil.

If I have nothing, you have even less than nothing.

More avoidance. This sounds like the death throes of your doctrine.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

 

[Timtofly]

More avoidance. This sounds like the death throes of your doctrine.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

Who was the dead Paul was talking about? Those before Paul, or the future? You cannot even address the very passage being discussed.

"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Paul said "that slept", meaning they were already alive when he wrote 1 Corinthians. He pointed out they had already perished without hope, if there was no resurrection. Do you think they made a distinction in the first century between OT and NT redeemed like some do today? The OT were all the dead in Christ at that point. Certainly Paul was not just talking about a few hundred who, he had been a part of himself, who were martyred since the Cross.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24

If you don't like the term "OT redeemed" which term is more palatable for you? At the Cross, the OT economy was over, finished. Not only did all the OT come out of their graves, but the veil was removed from the Holy of Holies by God Himself. There were no OT redeemed after that point. The thief on the Cross was the first NT redeemed soul to die. I suppose you deny the thief was redeemed and did not go to Paradise, unless God Himself presents Scripture for you to use as corroboration. Some of us live by Faith unlike those who have to see everything in black and white.

At this point you can just keep the smug "I won" attitude. You are certainly obsessed with winning internet debates more so than proclaiming the truth of God's Word.

It is not "my doctrine". Clearly you are blind to God's Word, if you cannot see it from Scripture, and claim posters just make stuff up.

 

[WPM]

Who was the dead Paul was talking about? Those before Paul, or the future? You cannot even address the very passage being discussed.

"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Paul said "that slept", meaning they were already alive when he wrote 1 Corinthians. He pointed out they had already perished without hope, if there was no resurrection. Do you think they made a distinction in the first century between OT and NT redeemed like some do today? The OT were all the dead in Christ at that point. Certainly Paul was not just talking about a few hundred who, he had been a part of himself, who were martyred since the Cross.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12:22-24

If you don't like the term "OT redeemed" which term is more palatable for you? At the Cross, the OT economy was over, finished. Not only did all the OT come out of their graves, but the veil was removed from the Holy of Holies by God Himself. There were no OT redeemed after that point. The thief on the Cross was the first NT redeemed soul to die. I suppose you deny the thief was redeemed and did not go to Paradise, unless God Himself presents Scripture for you to use as corroboration. Some of us live by Faith unlike those who have to see everything in black and white.

At this point you can just keep the smug "I won" attitude. You are certainly obsessed with winning internet debates more so than proclaiming the truth of God's Word.

It is not "my doctrine". Clearly you are blind to God's Word, if you cannot see it from Scripture, and claim posters just make stuff up.

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

 

[Timtofly]

Give me explicit Scripture that teaches that "the firstfruits were the OT redeemed made alive in Christ"?

I did several times.

You do know that the term "OT" is not in the King James Bible?

The only dead in Christ at the time Paul wrote were mostly OT redeemed.

The firstfruits are the Resurrection. Not sure who all you think were not ressurected?

At this point not even sure you even know what made alive means. This phrase is only found in 1 Corinthians 15.

Your demand means you have no other corroboration in Scripture concerning "made alive". You don't even know if it means physically or spiritually, do you, because you have no other explicit definition in Scripture?