Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

Since the Second Coming is before the Trumpets, your private opinionated interpretation, is after the Second Coming.

There is no verse that declares Revelation 20 parallels any other chapter of Revelation. Still waiting for all theses verses you have not posted stating such. All you have is your opinion.

The last trumpet is the second coming. The evidence is in the text. It is compelling. Each parallel is climactic. You have no answer to the actual evidence. It is the end! Your avoidance goes with being a Premil.

The last trumpet is the end of the world. It could not be more climactic. Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

• “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
• “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
• The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
• We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
• “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
• “time” shall be “no longer.”

It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.

There is no such thing as time after Jesus comes. There will be no such thing as 24 hours. You will not need a watch or a calendar any more. We are into eternity.

This is the time when “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Timtofly]

The last trumpet is the second coming. The evidence is in the text. It is compelling. Each parallel is climactic. You have no answer to the actual evidence. It is the end! Your avoidance goes with being a Premil.

The last trumpet is the end of the world. It could not be more climactic. Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

• “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.”
• “he shall reign for ever and ever” – not a thousand years or for a measurable time-span.
• The time of God’s “wrath is come.”
• We have a general judgment where Christ will “give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints” and judge the wicked at the same time. He will “destroy them which destroy the earth.”
• “the mystery of God” will be “finished.”
• “time” shall be “no longer.”

It is hard to see how the Holy Spirit could have made it more final. All the bases are covered. All the boxes are ticked. The finishing of “the mystery of God” at the “sound of the last trumpet (trumpet 7) ushers in the end of time (chronos) and the beginning of eternity.

There is no such thing as time after Jesus comes. There will be no such thing as 24 hours. You will not need a watch or a calendar any more. We are into eternity.

This is the time when “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corruption occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Obviously the 1000 year reign is still a mystery to you that will be revealed to you at the Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

Obviously the 1000 year reign is still a mystery to you that will be revealed to you at the Second Coming.

Not so! The Holy Spirit has revealed this great truth to me and exposed the former error I held as a Premil - believing in a non-corroborative doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so! The Holy Spirit has revealed this great truth to me and exposed the former error I held as a Premil - believing in a non-corroborative doctrine.

The Holy Spirit does not reveal a point that obviously contradicts Scripture. Your man made doctrine of recapitulation contradicts Scripture.

 

[WPM]

The Holy Spirit does not reveal a point that obviously contradicts Scripture. Your man made doctrine of recapitulation contradicts Scripture.

Do you ever read what others write? The doctrine you hold runs contrary to every other second coming Scripture. You have zero corroboration for all your main tenets. The burden of proof is with you and your fellow premils to disprove this. You never will! I have been throwing this challenge out (unaddressed) for a long time!

 

[Timtofly]

Do you ever read what others write? The doctrine you hold runs contrary to every other second coming Scripture. You have zero corroboration for all your main tenets. The burden of proof is with you and your fellow premils to disprove this. You never will! I have been throwing this challenge out (unaddressed) for a long time!

Your opinion is not Scripture.

You post Scripture. Then change the point with your opinion.

 

[gadar]

One of the main problems Premillennialism has is that it has a glorified Jesus bringing back all the redeemed of all the ages that have enjoyed perfect communion with Christ in His majestic heavenly presence since the time He defeated sin and death 2000 years ago, giving them new eternal incorruptible bodies at His second coming, along with the living in Christ, rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back to a corruptible millennial earth filled with degenerates, death, decay and depravity, just like our present day. It is just another re-run of our current evil age.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog. They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem. This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.

This whole portrayal is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will never happen.

You forgot the part that the saints will rule and reign with Christ with an IRON ROD. I don't think they'll have a hard time doing that at all according to Rev 2:26-28.
26To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations. 27They will rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots. 28They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
It portrays the opposite of what you allege.

 

[WPM]

You forgot the part that the saints will rule and reign with Christ with an IRON ROD. I don't think they'll have a hard time doing that at all according to Rev 2:26-28.
26To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations. 27They will rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots. 28They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
It portrays the opposite of what you allege.

Really? What do I allege?

 

[gadar]

Really? What do I allege?

You wrote: "It is just another re-run of our current evil age." In this present age, we certainly do not yet reign with Christ, much less rule with an iron rod. That will certainly change in the Millennium.

 

[jeffweeder]

You wrote: "It is just another re-run of our current evil age." In this present age, we certainly do not yet reign with Christ, much less rule with an iron rod. That will certainly change in the Millennium.

I doubt it.
Can you quote the actual post?

 

[gadar]

I doubt it.
Can you quote the actual post?

I thought I was replying to WPM who is the originator of this thread. If not, my apologies to you.

 

[WPM]

You wrote: "It is just another re-run of our current evil age." In this present age, we certainly do not yet reign with Christ, much less rule with an iron rod. That will certainly change in the Millennium.

I am not sure who told you that but they were not telling you the truth. The Bible says the opposite! We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we enter into this resurrection we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We reign in life and we reign in death. We reign in time and we reign in eternity.

 

[gadar]

I am not sure who told you that but they were not telling you the truth. The Bible says the opposite! We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we enter into this resurrection we enter into our eternal reign in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense). We reign in life and we reign in death. We reign in time and we reign in eternity.

That's true but only partially true and therein lies the difference. Our beliefs must account for what all of the scriptures describe. As I cited previously, the verse states that there is a time when the saints will reign with an Iron Rod. Is that happening today? Do the unbelievers of today obey what the believing saints in the current church age say they should do in terms of obeying the Lord Jesus Christ who sits on the throne? Of course not as the world continues in sin and every man does what seems right in his own eye. That's indisputable as the world is still captive to sin. Thus there's a distinction between ruling and reigning now (absent an Iron Rod) and ruling and reigning in the future (with an Iron Rod). In the next millennial age, all persons must bow down to Jesus on the throne on the earth as he and the saints will rule with authority and power, enforced by a rod of iron. That is the difference. Rev 20:4 describes this future time.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

That's true but only partially true and therein lies the difference. Our beliefs must account for what all of the scriptures describe. As I cited previously, the verse states that there is a time when the saints will reign with an Iron Rod. Is that happening today? Do the unbelievers of today obey what the believing saints in the current church age say they should do in terms of obeying the Lord Jesus Christ who sits on the throne? Of course not as the world continues in sin and every man does what seems right in his own eye. That's indisputable as the world is still captive to sin. Thus there's a distinction between ruling and reigning now (absent an Iron Rod) and ruling and reigning in the future (with an Iron Rod). In the next millennial age, all persons must bow down to Jesus on the throne on the earth as he and the saints will rule with authority and power, enforced by a rod of iron. That is the difference. Rev 20:4 describes this future time.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

What Scripture are you talking about that teaches that "the saints will reign with an Iron Rod"?

 

[gadar]

What Scripture are you talking about that teaches that "the saints will reign with an Iron Rod"?

Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star.
This verse states that the believer who perseveres and does the will of God to the end, will rule them with an iron scepter/rod, receiving the same authority as Jesus that he received from the Father.

 

[WPM]

Rev 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star.
This verse states that the believer who perseveres and does the will of God to the end, will rule them with an iron scepter/rod, receiving the same authority as Jesus that he received from the Father.

Where does it say that "the saints will reign with an Iron Rod" for a thousand years?

 

[gadar]

Where does it say that "the saints will reign with an Iron Rod" for a thousand years?

Fact: you now know the saints rule with an iron rod. Fact: I previously referenced Rev 20:4 that those who persevered, did the will of God TO THE END by refusing to worship the beast or take its mark were beheaded for their faith and as a result, came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Obviously, this is a future time of one thousand years where the saints reign with Christ. So the next question is, how do they rein? Answer: With an iron rod as specified in Rev 2:26. Scripture interprets scripture.

 

[WPM]

Fact: you now know the saints rule with an iron rod. Fact: I previously referenced Rev 20:4 that those who persevered, did the will of God TO THE END by refusing to worship the beast or take its mark were beheaded for their faith and as a result, came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Obviously, this is a future time of one thousand years where the saints reign with Christ. So the next question is, how do they rein? Answer: With an iron rod as specified in Rev 2:26. Scripture interprets scripture.

Ok, so you are adding unto Scripture again. That is not smart. You need you answer the question or admit you are wrong. 2+2=4, not 22.

 

[gadar]

Ok, so you are adding unto Scripture again. That is not smart. You need you answer the question or admit you are wrong. 2+2=4, not 22.

You've been informed. Your choice to ignore Scripture since you didn't reply to what the text states. As Porky Pig says "That's all Folks!"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You wrote: "It is just another re-run of our current evil age." In this present age, we certainly do not yet reign with Christ

Was John mistaken when he wrote this:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Was Paul mistaken when he wrote this:

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.