Another Premillennial absurdity

[Timtofly]

Let us establish a few absolutes:

· Glorification has not yet happened!
· We still live in corruptible bodies.
· The earth is still fallen.
· Sin and sickness, death and decay, are an ongoing reality for mankind.
· The renewal of the creature and creation are still to happen.

And the Day of the Lord is the Millennium Kingdom without sin, and death and decay because of sin.

 

[jeffweeder]

And the Day of the Lord is the Millennium Kingdom without sin, and death and decay because of sin.

That sounds like the NJ/NHNE
The millennium has Millions/ Billions outside the camp of the redeemed who are destroyed and die by fire the last day after the mill. Death is thrown into the fire afterwards.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It tells us that. Your attention to detail is lacking.

Revelation 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

It's not talking about literal fine linen here. The fine linen symbolically represents "the righteous acts of God's holy people").

I know that. That doesn't change the point.

The kingdom of the air is not heaven. I said he, "the accuser of the brethren", was kicked out of heaven long ago and that is true. If he was still there then he could still accuse us before God, but he can't.

I'm sorry, The air, it seems to me, is the lower part of heaven, the atmospheric part containing clouds, etc. When Jesus rose into the clouds at his ascension he ascended *into heaven.*

But I think we're getting off the point. I know Satan isn't with God in heaven anymore. Perhaps he is thrown down to our atmosphere--it certainly didn't say he is on the earth!

The point is that Satan is now ruling from an elevated place. And I think Christ is also doing that to some degree right now, and we will be doing that with him during the Millennium.

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?


Shouldn't our speculations make some semblance of sense, though? We will be changed to have immortal bodies and I suppose we will have some amazing abilities at that point, but we aren't going to be God. How can we rule over people on earth from heaven? Even angels don't interact with people from heaven.

The angels certainly interacted with John during the Revelation! And John was in heaven during some of those sequences.

They come to earth to do that. But, we will somehow be able to rule over earth from heaven? How? You're not really even speculating how, you're just speculating that it will happen. But, if you can't even come up with any kind of explanation how that could be possible, how do you expect to be taken seriously?

I don't care if you take me seriously. I'm just answering your questions. Believe what you think the truth is.

Again, your lack of attention to detail is being shown. Paul said that we will be changed at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). He said the dead in Christ will be raised first and then we will all be changed. Where do we go at that point, Randy? To heaven? No. Paul said we will meet Jesus "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17). That is not heaven. You're making the same mistake that pre-tribs make. You are post-trib, right? Why are you interpreting scripture like a pre-trib?

I'm not Pretrib, no--it has nothing to do with it. I do believe we are caught up to heaven, to meet Christ in the air. Perhaps that is the halfway point between God's heaven and our earth? That would make sense if we are to accompany Christ back to earth with our newly-acquired glorified bodies?

We cast Satan out? You continue to make things up that aren't true. If you read Revelation 12:7-9 you can see that it was Michael and his angels who cast Satan out of heaven, not us.

Michael cast Satan out of God's heaven, and not out of our heaven, the earth's atmosphere. That was one event that took place in the distant past. Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lightning.

Luke 10.18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

But I'm talking about the 2nd Coming, a completely different event. Michael may have cast Satan down before. But we are told we'll be like angels, and will even judge angels. I don't believe that's because we're greater than angels, but only because fallen angels have been treading on our territory, the earth, which was given for Man's dominion.

Why didn't you address anything I said about this? The context indicates that it is a matter of defeating the enemy. You are ignoring the context that associates the ruling with a rod of iron with complete destruction. Tell me how exactly Jesus breaking His enemies with a rod of iron to the point that it can be compared to destroying pottery into pieces equates to Him ruling over them in the way that you think He will?

I did address it, and I can't see how you fail to see that? I said that the rod of iron is described as doing both things, destroying the enemy and managing the otherwise-restless and lawless earth. Mortal humanity needs managing even if Satan is bound!

Let me be honest here, Randy. I find your position on all this to be extremely weak. I mean, I can't even believe anyone would believe all this when there is so little (none if you ask me) support for it. But, you believe what you want. That's up to you, of course.

Thank you. Yes, you should let the Lord speak to others, and let others be accountable for what they choose to believe. I give you that, as well.

Yes, I'm a little different for various reasons. That doesn't make my arguments weak--just different. And in an orthodox world, different often spells "weak."

But I have reasons that probably extend well beyond your own experience in the Bible. Like you, I believe the Bible and nothing else. But there's lots of room for speculation. And we have to acknowledge we don't see clearly. We should listen to one another, because God may choose to speak through them to us. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is weak. You should not have left that out. It talks about Jesus being led into the presence of the Father and Him then being given "authority, glory and sovereign power", which, according to Ephesians 1:19-23, is exactly what He was given when He ascended to heaven and was placed at the right hand of the Father. Please address this.

I 100% disagree with you. If I change the context by manipulating the passage that is one thing. But not one thing did I manipulate by leaving certain things out--certainly not in the way I look at things. It may be that way to you, but I don't see things your way, and so did not have to edit for your benefit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't believe you can support your beliefs with NT references. It figures that you would try to say that you don't need to do that. I believe that you do if you want to be taken seriously.

I really don't care what you think I need to do. If you're a Jew, then you might need NT references to back up my OT points. Otherwise, Christians already know the OT points are backed up by NT truth.

Paul made it VERY clear that Abraham's seed is Christ and those who belong to Christ and it has nothing to do with who someone descends from physically. You are not accepting what Paul taught. If anyone is inept here, it is definitely you.

It seems to me only a completely inept person would claim that the "seed" Paul was talking about was strictly Christ, and not Abraham's descendants. No other way to jar your otherwise-good mind back to sanity. But I don't think you're completely inept--just in this one matter.

Here is from a respected commentator: Ellicott
And to seeds, as of many; but as of one.—The argument of the Apostle turns upon the use, both in the Hebrew and in the LXX., of a singular instead of a plural noun. Both in the Hebrew and in the LXX., however, the noun, though singular, is collective. It meant, in the first instance at least, not any one individual, but the posterity of Abraham as a whole.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That sounds like the NJ/NHNE
The millennium has Millions/ Billions outside the camp of the redeemed who are destroyed and die by fire the last day after the mill. Death is thrown into the fire afterwards.

Yes, if death is the last to "die," that suggests the world is still mortal before the end of the thousand years.

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, if death is the last to "die," that suggests the world is still mortal before the end of the thousand years.

Very good. Only Amill has the timing right. TODAY is the day for mortals to be saved before Jesus comes in vengeance and glorifies those who obeyed the Gospel.
I quote 2 thess 1 for the millionth time where Jesus is first and foremost coming in vengeance to eternally separate those who are not rewarded with glorification.

Try reading it again.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day



No survivors on the day the Lord comes to change us in a twinkling of an eye.
Its time you guys stopped glossing over this fact and embrace his second coming and his promised full reward.

 

[WPM]

Yes, if death is the last to "die," that suggests the world is still mortal before the end of the thousand years.

Corruption, which is the consequence of sin comes to an end at the second coming. Therefore, death and decay come to an end at the second coming. Perfection arrives with the age to come.

The age to come has completely different, unique and elevated qualities that this age does not possess. It is characterized by incorruption, eternal life and perfection. It is a glorified existence that forbid any form of sin, mortality and corruption. Repeated Scripture tells us that the curse upon man will only last until Christ returns. It also tells us that the current heavens and earth will one day be replaced by a new regenerated heavens and earth. That is because the current arrangement has been corrupted by sin. As a consequence, our universe is finite and deteriorating, and its history will one day come to an end. All chronology currently sits in between creation and the consummation of all things. The whole of Scripture (Old Testament and New Testament) looks forward to the glorious day of restoration and perfection with expectancy. All creation waits with eager anticipation for that glorious moment when depravity and decay will finally be banished from creation forever.

Luke 20:27-33 records: “Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Saying, Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.”

Christ replies in Luke 20:34-36: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Luke adds more meat on the bones compared to what Matthew shares in his parallel account. Luke shows Christ rebuking the cunningness of the Sadducees and their attempt to deny a future physical resurrection at His return. Luke 20:27-36 clearly demonstrates that the defining moment of change between this age and the age to come is the time of the Lord’s return and the physical resurrection, not AD70 as Preterists claim. It is nowhere shown to be the change from the old covenant to the new covenant, as they argue.

It is impossible to miss the constant scriptural comparison between “this world” and “that world” or “this age” and “that age.” There is no additional age recognized. In text reinforces that repeated biblical truth. Those who live in this current evil age are described here as “the children of this world/age” but those who are depicted as being “worthy to obtain that age” to come are described exclusively as “the children of God, being the children of the resurrection” and are said to be “equal unto the angels.” There is no other way of reading this.

One must be appropriately qualified in order inherit the new world to come. They must be glorified on the day of redemption. Those that are worthy to obtain that age are not mortals and not sinners; they are rather glorified saints – who incidentally never marry or die.

Let us pause for a moment and consider what is being said here: people marry right up until the second coming, but in the age to come they don’t marry because the saints of God will be adorned with their new glorified eternal bodies. What is more: Christ shows that people die right up until the second coming but in the age to come they don’t die. Why? Because sin, sinners and the wicked are not welcome on the new glorified perfected earth that Christ introduces at the second coming.

The contrast here moves from: ‘marriage’ to ‘no marriage’, ‘death’ to ‘no death’. Marriage disappears! Death disappears! The turning point is the glorious coming of Christ and the resurrection that accompanies it.
Jesus outlines in clear tones the incorruptibility and the glory of the future state. This is not the case with the Premillennial and Preterist age to come; marriage, divorce, funerals and mourning continue unabated. This passage forbids both the Premillennial and Preterist theories.

This passage strongly cuts across the Premillennialists scheme that envisions a half-way redeemed earth with humans still procreating and still dying.

Does anyone truly believe that Jesus was teaching that people would marry in the Jewish age but not in the Christian age? Nobody would maintain such folly. This passage definitely leaves no room for the Premillennial and Preterist expectations. If words carry any meaning in Scripture then the whole Premillennial and Preterist schemes falls apart with such a passage. After all, in their paradigm, all the bondage of corruption continues on in the Premillennial and Preterist ‘ages to come’.

 

[WPM]

And the Day of the Lord is the Millennium Kingdom without sin, and death and decay because of sin.

Even if Christ was literally standing over sinners with an iron rod for a thousand year they would still sin because they are sinners!!! This is Christianity 101.

• Where in history or Scripture does it say that humans in mortal bodies can become sinless?
• Where in history or Scripture does it show a sinner become sinless outside of salvation?
• Surely glorification is the only means that Scripture shows where a human attains unto that?
• Where in Scripture teaches the concept of wholesale obedience by unregenerate mortals during a future millennium?
• How can billions of sinners enter your supposed future millennium and suddenly be made sinless and then once it hits exactly 1,000 years then instantly become the grossest and most foolish bunch of sinners ever to live as en-mass they become Satan worshipers?
• How can sinners not sin?

 

[Timtofly]

We sheep have clearly not inherited what God prepared from the foundation of the world (Eden)
God bless

If you consider yourself a Second Coming sheep, you are going to be in torment for 1,000 years enduring the Millennium you claim won't happen.

 

[Timtofly]

The following, which I got off the internet, is a pretty good explanation.

A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person's argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.​

The image of the "straw man" is meant to indicate weakness. The straw man is easily pushed over and knocked down. It can't offer any resistance.

(Reminds me of dear Aunt Sally) Just kidding.

This always reminds me of Don Quixote and the windmills.

 

[Timtofly]

I have many Premil friends. They are gracious and Christian in their approach. They are not vicious and vindictive when someone disagrees with them.

Do they teach a sin infested, goat infested Millennium?

 

[Timtofly]

Hello! The bride of Christ is the body of Christ! Don't believe your teachers that have taught you otherwise.

Hello! The Millennium is not for the church. It is for Israel and the firstfruits of the Second Coming. You teach people error by declaring the church is currently in the Millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Same thing, varying symbolism; just like we are sheep and also wheat. This is simple to grasp for the indoctrinated mind.

The Church is not the sheep and the wheat. 3 separate harvest. The Seals are for the church. The Trumpets are for the sheep. The Thunders are for the wheat. Not 3 comings. Only one coming and 3 harvest. Jesus is on the earth for the final harvest.

You are incorrectly interpreting Matthew 13, Matthew 25, and Matthew 24.

Revelation is chronological and no overlap of these 3 harvests.

If you are going to be dogmatic about the body of Christ and the bride, you also have to define properly the sheep and the wheat. They are not the body of Christ, and you don't accept Israel as the bride. But the sheep and wheat are definitely not either of those. They are the firstfruits like the 144k, which is not the bride either.

All you do is mash it all together, as if the twinkling of an eye resolves all your contradictions. Even you claim the destruction and restoration happen in the same instant blink of an eye, like no one will even feel it or notice it. That may be idealistic, causing no suffering at all. It is not realistic nor shows God's longsuffering, where humans are also going to experience the greatest trouble ever, even worse than drowning, or burning at the stake.

 

[Truth7t7]

Did you mean another absurd thread by an Amil denying the future Day of the Lord?

Denial is in your false teaching that the day of the Lord is 1,000 literal years long

The day of the Lord will take place quickly, like thief in sudden destruction (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

Hello! The Millennium is not for the church. It is for Israel and the firstfruits of the Second Coming. You teach people error by declaring the church is currently in the Millennium.

There won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe, Jesus returns in fire and final judgment (The End)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Very good. Only Amill has the timing right. TODAY is the day for mortals to be saved before Jesus comes in vengeance and glorifies those who obeyed the Gospel.
I quote 2 thess 1 for the millionth time where Jesus is first and foremost coming in vengeance to eternally separate those who are not rewarded with glorification.

Try reading it again.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day

No survivors on the day the Lord comes to change us in a twinkling of an eye.
Its time you guys stopped glossing over this fact and embrace his second coming and his promised full reward.

I'm surprised that you think your "millionth proof" is proof of anything at all in this debate?? We all agree that Christ is coming back to bring vengeance against the Antichrist and the world that follows him. But it is not at all clear from this that there are "no survivors." Where do you get this from this passage?

As a matter of fact, we are told by Paul that there *will be survivors* who are caught up to meet the Lord at his Coming.

1 Thes 4. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

So "no survivors" is wrong and out of the question. Will there be apocalyptic judgment and mass death at the coming of the Lord? Of course. The defeat of Antichrist will mean judgment against all nations who side up with him. And it means judgment for those in every nation who have sided with him.

In the book of Revelation we hear of a portion of a city being destroyed, of a third of the seas being impacted, but we also hear of people wailing in remorse at the sight of Christ's return. That is originating from a similar verse in Zechariah that applied largely to the nation Israel. Israel, in particular, will weep over their sins when they see the Lord return.

So when the Scriptures speak of apocalyptic judgment, it is just speaking in hyperbolic terms because without exaggeration this judgment will bring an end to Satan and to Antichrist, and will change the course of history. And it will do so by bringing overwhelming destruction in the nations of the world. The elements will burn, in fires and perhaps in a nuclear holocaust.

None of this is meant to say the world will be annihilated because they same hyperbolic terms were applied by the Prophets to ancient nations in history who also suffered definitive judgments. And they didn't have nuclear weapons and the destructive technology that we have today.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Common sense insists that only those of Abrahams descendants that are in Christ Jesus are his seed.

I would agree.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It tells us that. Your attention to detail is lacking.

Revelation 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

It's not talking about literal fine linen here. The fine linen symbolically represents "the righteous acts of God's holy people").

It's often a cop out to turn to "symbolic interpretation when you don't want to believe what Scripture is actually saying. The Scriptures refer to "heavenly clothes." Who cares whether the clothes are made of actual linen or something akin to it? The point is that we're covered by the righteousness of Christ when we obey and do that. Otherwise, our shame remains. Clothes are for "covering," and that is the point.

So we have to ask ourselves, Why are these clothes referred to as "heavenly?" They refer to our heavenly body, or dwelling, because Christ is presently seated in heaven with his Father, representing our right to that body.

2 Cor 5.4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

2 Kings 2.11 indicate Elijah was caught up to heaven. This is the pattern after which the Church is caught up to the clouds of heaven.
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

The kingdom of the air is not heaven. I said he, "the accuser of the brethren", was kicked out of heaven long ago and that is true. If he was still there then he could still accuse us before God, but he can't.

We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the "air" is a part of "heaven." We are told the clouds are in the heavens. But the heavens, plural, obviously refer to the area beyond, where the stars are, and into the universe of God's own dwelling. We're told that the heavens bring us rain, indicating it comes as a blessing from God, and as originated from the heavens. That means, the clouds are in the heavens--otherwise how else could the "heavens" bring us rain?

But you have a point--the vault of the sky is the area closest to the earth, our atmosphere. The clouds cover the heavens beyond at times, and at other times we see the stars in the universe.

I don't think this argument over detail is essential in my argument that we go to heaven, as Elijah went to heaven, in order to join with the Lord in heaven. So we not only rise into the sky, but we also rise in the heavens of God's dwelling, in order to receive from Him our heavenly bodies, ie our immortal tabernacles.

I may have already answered this post, but I wished to supplement it. I've done a little more research for it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where does Scripture teach there will not be a future millennium kingdom after the Second Coming, but some future theologian will invent amil after looking back at the last 1900 years and declare Christ's kingdom on earth is the here and now?

Yes, to be consistent he should show you where Rev teaches that the 2nd Coming takes place *after* the Millennium. He's going to have a very hard time doing that!