Another Premillennial absurdity

[Spiritual Israelite]

Relevant and reasonable point, even though Amills here act like a gang of thugs.

First you say something nice and then you say something completely nasty and untrue. Are you bipolar, Randy?

Are you just jealous that we agree with each other and you have NO ONE who agrees with you? I think so.

That's disappointing, but this at least is reasonable, and not false propaganda.

I agree that many are called and few are chosen. But that doesn't mean many nations were not called to be Christian nations, and that many people in Christian nations were called to be Christians. Whether they are chosen or not is besides the point.

What?!! How can it not matter if they are chosen or not? Only those who are chosen are Christians. How can a nation be considered a "Christian nation" if most of them are not actually Christians? Can't you see how nonsensical that is?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have? No, I really don't think that's true.


Don't tell me what to do, Randy.


I disagree. I think you find him to be hostile just because you disagree with him. When you present nonsense that is based only on secular sources, such as your Christian nations doctrine, then that needs to be exposed for the ridiculous nonsense that it is.


Repeatedly? I'd say at least 99% of your posts contain no scripture references. Are you always given to exaggeration like this? Please just remind me one more time what scripture it is that you base your "Christian nations" beliefs on.

Don't agree. I've given lots of references. I'm not going to keep repeating them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why is it that this is satisfying to you? It defies all logic to think that billions of people will just suddenly change course and fight against what they have believed in and supported for the past thousand years. Do you really think that Satan is that powerful? You say you have no idea how long it takes, but we know that the entirety of that time is defined as "a little season", so it must be a pretty short amount of time.

Yes, I don't think it takes long for leaven to leaven bread. You think? Leaven has been latent in the human race since Adam fell. In some places conditions are ripe for the leavening process to be quick. In other places, it takes a long time.

In this case, Satan has to be added into the equation. He speeds up the process significantly. And the conditions may suddenly become right for a sudden departure from the faith by powerful world leaders.

It's amazing what powerful military leaders, combined with media, and the pull to independence from God can do to an entire society in short order! How long did it take for Christian Russia to turn to Communist Russia? It was a relatively "small season."

Consider the impact propaganda had on German society once Nazi leadership took power. A relatively small season!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, they are not based *exclusively* on secular sources. You base many things on both biblical and secular sources yourself. How else would you know the history of the OT beyond what is in the Bible? How would you know in detail how many biblical prophecies were actually fulfilled and have been fulfilled? Don't believe the propaganda--I do *not* strictly rely on encyclopedias for my theological positions. That is a lie.

I said "primarily", not "strictly". Please learn how to read more carefully.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't agree. I've given lots of references. I'm not going to keep repeating them.

You have no self awareness. Like I said, at least 99% (maybe 99.9%?) of your posts contain no scripture references.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I don't think it takes long for leaven to leaven bread. You think? Leaven has been latent in the human race since Adam fell. In some places conditions are ripe for the leavening process to be quick. In other places, it takes a long time.

Please explain to me how it would get to that point then? Remember, we're talking about a time period during which you believe the Lord Jesus Christ Himself would be on the earth and His influence would be felt throughout the earth during that time. So, how exactly would it come to be that billions of people would basically get tired of following Him anymore towards the end of that time?

In this case, Satan has to be added into the equation. He speeds up the process significantly. And the conditions may suddenly become right for a sudden departure from the faith by powerful world leaders.

It's amazing what powerful military leaders, combined with media, and the pull to independence from God can do to an entire society in short order! How long did it take for Christian Russia to turn to Communist Russia? It was a relatively "small season."

Consider the impact propaganda had on German society once Nazi leadership took power. A relatively small season!

Good grief, Randy. What were the conditions like before these things happened? Anything comparable to a thousand years of bliss on the entire earth just before that? Of course not. You're making ridiculous comparisons here.

 

[WPM]

Amills here act like a gang of thugs.

This is what we get for disagreeing with you.

You come across as a very bitter and frustrated person.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is what we get for disagreeing with you.

You come across as a very bitter and frustrated person.

I don't wish to engage in hostile discussions. I'll be happy to discuss *anything* with you when the atmosphere improves. Thank you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please explain to me how it would get to that point then? Remember, we're talking about a time period during which you believe the Lord Jesus Christ Himself would be on the earth and His influence would be felt throughout the earth during that time. So, how exactly would it come to be that billions of people would basically get tired of following Him anymore towards the end of that time?

1st, I think Jesus' presence here, as a glorified person, will be short-lived. His bodily presence as a glorified person will likely be dimensional, as the angels are now.

So I don't think Jesus will be mixed in with the mortal crowd on earth. He will seem to rule from heaven, although his spiritual presence will be here, just like God's glory was in the temple during Israel's theocracy.

2ndly, Jesus was here bodily at his 1st Coming. And Israel certainly turned away from him in short order after just a few words about his need to go to the Cross.

Good grief, Randy. What were the conditions like before these things happened? Anything comparable to a thousand years of bliss on the entire earth just before that? Of course not. You're making ridiculous comparisons here.

I get it that you don't agree. I've said my bit. And I think you've said yours. If you have no more concerns, then we can leave it at that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You have no self awareness. Like I said, at least 99% (maybe 99.9%?) of your posts contain no scripture references.

When I say my arguments are based on the promises God made to Abraham in Gen 12 and 17, then how many times in the same or related threads do I need to repeat this?

Do you really think counting my posts disqualifies the fact I referred to Gen 12 and 17? I've referred to the Jewish Hope, or the Hope of Israel. Nobody has even challenged me that there exists in the body of Prophetic Literature that a Messianic Kingdom is promised.

That is my basis. I don't have to repeat that just because you disagree with it. We may discuss interpretation, language, and references to pertinent materials, but I do not need to keep referring to Scriptures every time I say something. Some here feel that quoting things gives their views credibility. That isn't always so.

Some people think that because I don't quote Scriptures for every single point I make that I don't know the Bible. That isn't true. Much that I say has Scriptural truth integrated into it--I've been studying my entire life!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1st, I think Jesus' presence here, as a glorified person, will be short-lived. His bodily presence as a glorified person will likely be dimensional, as the angels are now.

What is this based on?

So I don't think Jesus will be mixed in with the mortal crowd on earth. He will seem to rule from heaven, although his spiritual presence will be here, just like God's glory was in the temple during Israel's theocracy.

This is quite different from what most Premils believe then.

2ndly, Jesus was here bodily at his 1st Coming. And Israel certainly turned away from him in short order after just a few words about his need to go to the Cross.

He wasn't here in all His glory ruling over a perfect (or nearly perfect) earth, so that is completely different.

I get it that you don't agree. I've said my bit. And I think you've said yours. If you have no more concerns, then we can leave it at that?

I don't have anything more to add, but I'd appreciate an answer to my question above regarding your first point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I say my arguments are based on the promises God made to Abraham in Gen 12 and 17, then how many times in the same or related threads do I need to repeat this? Do you really thinking counting my posts disqualifies the fact I referred to Gen 12 and 17?

Does it not concern you that there is no NT scripture you can use to support your understanding of Genesis 12 and 17? Why does Paul's explanation of who the promises God made to Abraham and his seed apply to (in Galatians 3:16-29) not agree with your understanding of Genesis 12 and 17? Why do you not allow the NT to shine light on the OT for you? I just don't get that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I say my arguments are based on the promises God made to Abraham in Gen 12 and 17, then how many times in the same or related threads do I need to repeat this?

Do you really think counting my posts disqualifies the fact I referred to Gen 12 and 17? I've referred to the Jewish Hope, or the Hope of Israel. Nobody has even challenged me that there exists in the body of Prophetic Literature that a Messianic Kingdom is promised.

Why would we deny that? What we have done many times is show the proper understanding of His kingdom that He rules over right now.

That is my basis. I don't have to repeat that just because you disagree with it. We may discuss interpretation, language, and references to pertinent materials, but I do not need to keep referring to Scriptures every time I say something. Some here feel that quoting things gives their views credibility. That isn't always so.

Is sure helps. When a vast majority of your posts consist of your own words and references to secular sources that makes it very difficult to take you seriously. We need to back up our claims with scripture. It's as if you have a dislike for referencing scripture or something. I don't get that. Who cares if you have referenced it before? Someone might be reading your post who didn't see those references. You seem to be much quicker to quote secular sources than scripture. That is concerning.

Some people think that because I don't quote Scriptures for every single point I make that I don't know the Bible. That isn't true. Much that I say has Scriptural truth integrated into it--I've been studying my entire life!

Why would you not want to show that then? Why do you so rarely reference scripture? I'm not talking about quoting it for every point you make. But, you rarely reference it at all. Maybe at least a bit more often than rarely would be nice.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is this based on?

Jesus' 2nd Coming *to the earth.* He is leaving heaven. He is coming "with the clouds of heaven." He is coming to establish his Kingdom on earth--Dan 7.

This is quite different from what most Premils believe then.

I don't adopt every point in a school of eschatology. My points have come from every source, since Christians generally are burdened with something important to God. I've learned from Amil and Premil, from Pretrib and Postrib, from Preterism and Historicism.

He wasn't here in all His glory ruling over a perfect (or nearly perfect) earth, so that is completely different.

Yes, God in His glory was actually here on earth in the form of His glory, in a spiritual sense. God does not have a physical body.

When it comes to Christ being here, his glorified body will be different from the mortal bodies of people living in the Millennium. Christ and his glorified Church may be here in some sense, though not bodily here in the physical sense. It's speculative. My basis for believing this is 2-fold.

1) We are told that as glorified Christians we will rule over the earth, which to me implies we will rule over a mortal world.

2) It just doesn't seem logical to me that glorified beings will share the planet with sinful mortal humans until the age of redemption is over. That's when Jerusalem comes down *from heaven,* indicating that glorified Christians may be in heaven during the Millennial Period.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus' 2nd Coming *to the earth.* He is leaving heaven. He is coming "with the clouds of heaven." He is coming to establish his Kingdom on earth--Dan 7.

You misunderstood me. I'm asking you what your belief that He will not be on earth for long is based on.

Yes, God in His glory was actually here on earth in the form of His glory, in a spiritual sense. God does not have a physical body.

Do you have to miss every point? I'm talking about everyone being able to see Jesus in all His glory on the earth. That's obviously much different than what you're talking about.

When it comes to Christ being here, his glorified body will be different from the mortal bodies of people living in the Millennium. Christ and his glorified Church may be here in some sense, though not bodily here in the physical sense. It's speculative.

Honestly, it seems that most of your beliefs are only speculative.

My basis for believing this is 2-fold.

1) We are told that as glorified Christians we will rule over the earth, which to me implies we will rule over a mortal world.

Where are we told this?

2) It just doesn't seem logical to me that glorified beings will share the planet with sinful mortal humans until the age of redemption is over. That's when Jerusalem comes down *from heaven,* indicating that glorified Christians may be in heaven during the Millennial Period.

What would those who have been glorified be doing during that time then? Why wouldn't they serve any purpose on the earth like the angels do? I don't think that makes any sense. But, this is all nothing but speculation, anyway. None of it will actually happen. I find your doctrine to be extremely farfetched. Just being honest.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You misunderstood me. I'm asking you what your belief that He will not be on earth for long is based on.

The fact he is indeed returning to earth physically. I answered you by saying that I do not logically believe glorified Christians belong in a world together with mortal humanity until the age of redemption is finished. And also, Jerusalem descends from heaven, which is where we will be. How is this "misunderstanding your question?"

Do you have to miss every point? I'm talking about everyone being able to see Jesus in all His glory on the earth. That's obviously much different than what you're talking about.

I'm not missing your point--you're missing mine! I told you that at Jesus' 1st Coming, everybody in Israel saw him! His being seen here on earth made no difference with respect to keeping them in faith and obedient!

Honestly, it seems that most of your beliefs are only speculative.

There are lots of gaps in the info we're given. There is room for speculation, as long as we treat as doctrine what is given as doctrine.

Where are we told this?

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
2.27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

What would those who have been glorified be doing during that time then? Why wouldn't they serve any purpose on the earth like the angels do? I don't think that makes any sense. But, this is all nothing but speculation, anyway. None of it will actually happen. I find your doctrine to be extremely farfetched. Just being honest.

The purpose of the Church and Christ for coming down from heaven to earth is to establish Christ's Kingdom here--Dan 7. That is not far-fetched--that is Scripture. The rest may indeed just be my own speculation.

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven... 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him... his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Quite simply, Christ and his Church are coming back to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Our purpose after that, after establishing this theocracy, is to rule over the earth. To keep the earth in check assumes that the world is still mortal, in my view. I'm not demanding you agree with me--just explaining my biblical basis for things.

 

[WPM]

I don't wish to engage in hostile discussions. I'll be happy to discuss *anything* with you when the atmosphere improves. Thank you.

You create the atmosphere by your insults and ad hominem and then you complain. Totally hypocritical.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Does it not concern you that there is no NT scripture you can use to support your understanding of Genesis 12 and 17? Why does Paul's explanation of who the promises God made to Abraham and his seed apply to (in Galatians 3:16-29) not agree with your understanding of Genesis 12 and 17? Why do you not allow the NT to shine light on the OT for you? I just don't get that.

You're asking me for biblical support for biblical texts? I suppose that makes sense to some degree. But I hardly need to justify that what is said in Gen 12 and 17 is there! At face value, it says what it says, that Abraham is promised a nation from his loins, and many nations of his faith. This is readily apparent!

Gal 3.16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is pretty long, so I'll try to abbreviate. In my view, this is completely consistent with my beliefs, regarding Israel and Christian nations. Of course, if you're going to deny there is such a thing as "Christian nations," simply because not all in the nation will be "chosen," then why even discuss it? We can't begin without my being able to give you my presupposition that there is, in fact, a thing called "Christian nations!"

But if you accept that this is my basis for interpreting the fulfillment of God's promises as a final era in which Israel will be brought back to God as a nation, and Christian nations will be completely free to be Christian, then you may understand how I view these things?

The "seed" God promised things to Paul understood to be Abraham's descendants, but he was defining these descendants as a singular, collective group *in Christ.* There is no question the "seed" of Abraham included Israel, since this "seed" was promised occupancy in the land of Canaan. That was not Christ. But Israel was determined to be defined by Christ because this "seed" was to be of the faith of Abraham, and not just of the flesh. Otherwise, how could other nations be included in Abraham's inheritance who are not of the flesh, unless they are related by faith?

Israel is a prototypical nation, giving an example to all Christian nations since they fell. It was a blueprint as to how to live in the theocracy of God, and a warning about the inevitable fall of our nations. As such, Christian nations have been falling just as Israel fell.

Nevertheless, God called these nations by promise to Abraham to set up a situation where many could be "chosen." Inheriting eternal life is the ultimate goal, and Christian societies merely created a better climate for this to develop.

When all nations have had their exposure to the Gospel, and Christian nations have fallen away, as Israel did, then Christ will come back to judge the earth and to bring things back to his ultimate purpose to have a godly Israel and Christian nations. And this will be secured by binding Satan, and by Christ's rule over the earth in some sense at that time.

Finally, the last part about there being no "Jew or Gentile" is speaking in respect to God's impartiality towards men in the opportunity to become members of Christ. There is no litmus test for applying for eternal life, in regard to race or nationality. We have to repent of our own ways, and accept Christ's way. It is not a national way, but the way of one Man, Christ.

 

[jeffweeder]

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven... 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him... his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

What version of the bible is this quote from?

Whatever version it is from it is to be thrown into the fire.


Here is the AMP Version

The Son of Man Presented​

13
“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, on the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14
“And to Him (the Messiah) was given dominion (supreme authority),
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and speakers of every language
Should serve and worship Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.



The portion I highlighted above changes everything.

There is only one time ever when the Son of man was presented before the Father.



Rev 5
6 And there between the throne (with the four living creatures) and among the elders I saw a Lamb (Christ) standing, [bearing scars and wounds] as though it had been slain, with seven horns (complete power) and with seven eyes (complete knowledge), which are the seven Spirits of God who have been sent [on duty] into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb (Christ), each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of fragrant incense, which are the prayers of the saints (God’s people). 9 And they sang a new song [of glorious redemption], saying,

“Worthy and deserving are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slain (sacrificed), and with Your blood You purchased people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10
“You have made them to be a kingdom [of royal subjects] and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth.”



Ascension

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fact he is indeed returning to earth physically. I answered you by saying that I do not logically believe glorified Christians belong in a world together with mortal humanity until the age of redemption is finished. And also, Jerusalem descends from heaven, which is where we will be. How is this "misunderstanding your question?"

You're just not being clear. Imagine that. I'm sure you're always clear in your own mind.

Anyway, so, you're saying that you believe glorified Christians will be on the earth for a short time as well then? If not, then why would Jesus even come to the earth at all if He's just going to leave right away afterwards? This just makes no sense. Your view is based entirely on speculation and not on scripture at all. That is a major problem that you seem to not care about.

I'm not missing your point--you're missing mine! I told you that at Jesus' 1st Coming, everybody in Israel saw him! His being seen here on earth made no difference with respect to keeping them in faith and obedient!

They didn't see Him in all His glory for a thousand years. Good grief, you are definitely missing the point. But, how can I get you to see the point when you make no effort to see it?

There are lots of gaps in the info we're given. There is room for speculation, as long as we treat as doctrine what is given as doctrine.

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
2.27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

What does it mean for Him to "rule" with an iron scepter, though? Have you given a second of thought to that? In terms of Revelation 19:15, what type of scenario is that describing? A scenario where Jesus is destroying people, not ruling over them in the sense that you're thinking of. Why do you not take that into consideration?

Those are referring to this prophecy:

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”'

When you read this you should be able to see that Him ruling with an iron scepter (rod of iron) has nothing to do with what you think it does, but rather has to do with Him breaking/destroying people which is compared to Him dashing them to pieces like pottery. You are completely missing the context here.

The purpose of the Church and Christ for coming down from heaven to earth is to establish Christ's Kingdom here--Dan 7. That is not far-fetched--that is Scripture.

Please do not just reference chapters. Which verses in Daniel 7 are you using to back up what you're saying here?

The rest may indeed just be my own speculation.

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven... 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him... his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Quite simply, Christ and his Church are coming back to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Our purpose after that, after establishing this theocracy, is to rule over the earth. To keep the earth in check assumes that the world is still mortal, in my view. I'm not demanding you agree with me--just explaining my biblical basis for things.

I'm actually very surprised that you, for once, are attempting to actually explain your view with scripture. So, thanks for doing that.

However, I believe you are badly misinterpreting that passage. That passage has nothing to do with His return, but rather has to do with His ascension long ago. You really need to learn how to interpret scripture with scripture.

Compare the following two passages:

Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Please compare what I highlighted in red in each passage and also compare what I highlighted in blue in each passage. In each passage it talks about Jesus being in the presence of the Father at which point "He was given authority, glory and sovereign power". When you read Ephesians 1:19-22 can you see that what is described in Daniel 7:13-14 happened after He was resurrected and ascended to heaven? It's very obvious. So, you are misapplying Daniel 7:13-14. There is no question that it is referring to His ascension rather than His second coming. If it wasn't, then that would mean Paul was mistaken in what he wrote in Ephesians 1:19-22, and I'm sure you don't believe that.

Oh, and there's one other thing I want to add here. You conveniently left out the part about Jesus being led into the presence of "the Ancient of Days" (God the Father) in your quotation of Daniel 7:13-14. Why did you leave that part out? That part shows that it's not talking about HIs second coming, but about His ascension. He is not going to be lead into the presence of God the Father at His second coming. He will be coming FROM heaven at that time, not TO heaven.