Apostle Paul Showed The Rapture Happens With The Future Resurrection

[rebuilder 454]

Hmm, I agree in a certain sense. He says "as in the days of Noah," which doesn't really set any kind of "frame" except during the time Noah lived, and Noah lived before, during, and after the flood. So in that sense, I disagree. However, Jesus does provide His own context in making those comments, the fullness of which we have to gather from both Matthew 24 and Luke 17:

"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:36-39).

"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:24-27).

In this commentary, Jesus has as His subjects not Noah and his family but rather "they" and "them," underlined in both passages above... that's who will be "removed," or, to use Jesus's actual words, "swept away," and "destroyed." And as we can clearly see in both these passages, Jesus is talking about the unexpectedness and suddenness of this event.


That he certainly did, and his family and the animals with him. But to apply that in the way you are... Well, I'll just respectfully disagree with the implication you're making and leave it at that; we've had this conversation before.


Ah. Again, I respectfully disagree, the ark is a type, a shadow, of Jesus. In the ark, the lives of Noah and his family and the animals ~ who represent us in Noah's story ~ are preserved through the storm/flood. Jesus is our ark. We are in Him, in Christ, and He preserves us to the end. And in a larger sense, God's creation is preserved, and the covenant of life is remade with Noah after the flood:

“God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything" (Genesis 9:1-3).​

We call this the Noahic Covenant... it is the remaking of the Adamic Covenant:

"God blessed them. And God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.' And God said, 'Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.'" (Genesis 1:28-30).​

Preserved. See above. Much like the firstborn sons of the Hebrews in the Passover. So, saved or delivered, and thus protected from consequences of sin and from God's wrath ~ redeemed by the blood of the lamb, as the old hymn goes. The firstborn sons of the Egyptians, however...


Yes. His life was preserved. Again, what you're saying... the context you are putting this into... is very different than Jesus's in Matthew 24 and Luke 17. The ones who will be "removed" ~ swept away, destoyed (but certainly not annihilated) ~ as a result of the final Judgment are the unrepentant... unbelievers... who, even up to that time, will remain unaware and will be surprised, even mortified, at the outcome, as we see in Matthew 25:44, and will then, at Jesus's command ~ "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" ~ will "go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46).


Well, we don't know the percentages... But there will be two groups...


<chuckle> See above.


I agree. Actually, I think it is more appropriate here ~ because no one is "leaving out facts" ~ to say, "When you inadvertently shift the focus and make it something it is not..." See above.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

You had to actually ignore the setting.
Wow.
Jesus DEPICTED the setting (BEFORE THE FLOOD)
Psssst...that is in fact pre judgement.
Show me where in noah, Lot, the setting is post judgement.
You are basically telling us that Jesus was wrong.

We don't know the percentages of one person taken one person left? We don't know the percentages when we see three or four examples of one taken and one left? That would be 50%. I don't know what mathematical methods you're using to not know that if we have 2 apples and one is removed then that would be a 50% dynamic. Now I have no idea why you would go to that situation. It is interesting that you cannot acknowledge a very simple and Vivid plain fact. I am real careful to post only the facts, 100% facts. But you disagree with every fact that was posted ,and there's no changes, modifications, or any situational additives that you can put in there to change any of those facts .
You are against every single fact.
So we can't even agree on a 50% fact ,when the Bible clearly says 50%.

Now according to your analogy that the ark is Jesus, I wonder why in the world you need to change that Dynamic also. The entire reason that the ark would be a type of Heaven is because the ark is the mercy seat of God. It is an object.
It cannot represent God and it cannot represent Jesus. It is an object in the holy of holies. It is The Mercy Seat of God. It literally cannot be God nor associated with being the person of God.
No the ark is a container. It's an object. You really had to stretch a long way to come up with that.
Ark is a type of Heaven every single time.

QUOTE
"""Hmm, I agree in a certain sense. He says "as in the days of Noah," which doesn't really set any kind of "frame" except during the time Noah lived, and Noah lived before, during, and after the flood. So in that sense, I disagree. However, Jesus does provide His own context in making those comments, the fullness of which we have to gather from both Matthew 24 and Luke 17:"""

REALLY?????
You left out THE SETTING!!!!
You note intentionally left out the setting!!!!
You omitted the FACT of the timeframe!!!!!
Re read it.
Do not attempt to REFRAME it by leaving out "BEFORE THE FLOOD"
No need to change the bible friend.

 

[Douggg]

What does it mean when those on man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY make the FALSE CLAIM that Jesus raptures His Church BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION?? Hey! Is Douggy not claiming the DAY of Christ's coming PER HIS ACCUSATION? Yeah! He's doing the VERY THING he falsely accuses me of!!

My rapture timing view is Anytime rapture view, i.e anytime be now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

The rapture could take place any time between now and then - not a specific event day, like you have declared.

The pretrib rapture view is any time between now and the beginning of the 70th week. Also not on a specific day.


I show both the Anytime Rapture View and the Pre-trib Rapture view on two separate charts below so that you can understand the difference.









------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Davy]

My rapture timing view is Anytime rapture view, i.e anytime be now and the day that the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation.

The rapture could take place any time between now and then - not a specific event day, like you have declared.

The pretrib rapture view is any time between now and the beginning of the 70th week. Also not on a specific day.

The FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory is not... your own idea, you didn't think it up, someone else long before you were born did; his name was John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and he actually got the false theory from others, yet he was one of the first ones to preach it in a Christian Church in Britain.

By claiming... Christ comes to rapture the Church prior... to the "great tribulation", which is what that false doctrine claims, and which YOU have in your own chart, you are doing the same false claim that you know the 'day' of His coming, that you falsely accuse me of! That makes you a hypocrite.

 

[Douggg]

The FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory is not... your own idea, you didn't think it up, someone else long before you were born did; his name was John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and he actually got the false theory from others, yet he was one of the first ones to preach it in a Christian Church in Britain.

I never said that I created the pre-trib rapture view.

By claiming... Christ comes to rapture the Church prior... to the "great tribulation", which is what that false doctrine claims, and which YOU have in your own chart, you are doing the same false claim that you know the 'day' of His coming, that you falsely accuse me of! That makes you a hypocrite.

No, I never claimed that the rapture would take place the day before the great tribulation begins. No exact day in either my anytime rapture view, nor in the pre-trib rapture view.

You declared an exact day of the rapture of being the day of Jesus's return.

 

[PinSeeker]

You had to actually ignore the setting.

Not at all. I just don't (inadvertently) make it into something other than it is, as I said.

Wow.
Jesus DEPICTED the setting (BEFORE THE FLOOD)
Psssst...that is in fact pre judgement.
Show me where in Noah, Lot, the setting is post judgement.

I didn't say anything was "post-judgment." Here you seem to be putting my comments in a different "setting" than they actually were...

You are basically telling us that Jesus was wrong.

No, I'm telling you that you're taking Jesus's comments out of context. I know your intentions are good, but again, you're taking Jesus's focal point and making it something very different that what it is... more correctly, shifting it to a different person than the group of people it is on. His comments are not about Noah and his family, particularly, at all.

We don't know the percentages of one person taken one person left?

Oh my.

Now according to your analogy that the ark is Jesus...

My analogy? No... Well, not originally mine...

"'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).

"...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (Jesus, John 5:46).

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Regarding the Hebrews passage, the writer is in no uncertain terms saying that God spoke in the days before Jesus came in many ways about Jesus, but in these last days ~ after Christ's ascension, at present ~ He has spoken to us by Jesus Himself.

...the ark is a container. It's an object.

But it is representative of Jesus in Noah's story. All through the Old Testament, Jesus is represented in different ways...

...sometimes by people...

• like Joseph, who is there in Egypt to save his brothers and Israel in general from the famine; what his brothers meant for evil, God meant for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive (Genesis 50:20)
• or Moses, who led his people out of Egypt in the Exodus to the Promised Land
• or King David, who, though the youngest of his brothers was made firstborn ~ king, the foremost ~ over Israel

...and sometimes by objects/things...

• like the ark, which carried/sustained God's people through the storm
• or the manna from heaven of Exodus 16, or the water that flowed from rock which Moses struck with his staff in Exodus 17, through which God sustained and even nourished His people with in the desert (surely you remember what Jesus says in John 6, that "...it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst" ~ John 6:32-35)
• or like the bronze serpent that God instructs Moses to make and hang on a pole; those who are bitten by the snakes are to look upon the serpent and live... Jesus, as you know is hung on a cross, and those who look upon Him in faith are saved from the wages of sin
• God's Law itself, given to Moses; as the writer of Hebrews says, the "former commandment (was) set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19)

...sometimes even animals...

• like the lamb or ram without blemish we read about throughout the Pentateuch, even beginning with the ram Abraham provided by God for him to sacrifice instead of Isaac in Genesis 15
• or like the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands on the head of the “scapegoat” and confessed the sins of Israel, transferring their sin to the goat, which was then led out of the city... as Jesus was to Golgotha/Calvary

Even the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.

If you do not "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament in these ways... Well, you should. As Jesus Himself said, the Israelites of the Old Testament had Moses and the Prophets, so they "saw" the coming Messiah in these same ways.

Ark is a type of Heaven...

No, of Jesus. See above.

QUOTE
"""Hmm, I agree in a certain sense. He says "as in the days of Noah," which doesn't really set any kind of "frame" except during the time Noah lived, and Noah lived before, during, and after the flood. So in that sense, I disagree. However, Jesus does provide His own context in making those comments, the fullness of which we have to gather from both Matthew 24 and Luke 17:"""

REALLY?????
You left out THE SETTING!!!!
You note intentionally left out the setting!!!!
You omitted the FACT of the timeframe!!!!!
Re read it.
Do not attempt to REFRAME it by leaving out "BEFORE THE FLOOD"

So you think, I understand, but absolutely not. I maintain that you are inadvertently making this setting into something very different than it is.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not at all. I just don't (inadvertently) make it into something other than it is, as I said.


I didn't say anything was "post-judgment." Here you seem to be putting my comments in a different "setting" than they actually were...


No, I'm telling you that you're taking Jesus's comments out of context. I know your intentions are good, but again, you're taking Jesus's focal point and making it something very different that what it is... more correctly, shifting it to a different person than the group of people it is on. His comments are not about Noah and his family, particularly, at all.


Oh my.


My analogy? No... Well, not originally mine...

"'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).

"...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (Jesus, John 5:46).

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Regarding the Hebrews passage, the writer is in no uncertain terms saying that God spoke in the days before Jesus came in many ways about Jesus, but in these last days ~ after Christ's ascension, at present ~ He has spoken to us by Jesus Himself.


But it is representative of Jesus in Noah's story. All through the Old Testament, Jesus is represented in different ways...

...sometimes by people...

• like Joseph, who is there in Egypt to save his brothers and Israel in general from the famine; what his brothers meant for evil, God meant for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive (Genesis 50:20)
• or Moses, who led his people out of Egypt in the Exodus to the Promised Land
• or King David, who, though the youngest of his brothers was made firstborn ~ king, the foremost ~ over Israel

...and sometimes by objects/things...

• like the ark, which carried/sustained God's people through the storm
• or the manna from heaven of Exodus 16, or the water that flowed from rock which Moses struck with his staff in Exodus 17, through which God sustained and even nourished His people with in the desert (surely you remember what Jesus says in John 6, that "...it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst" ~ John 6:32-35)
• or like the bronze serpent that God instructs Moses to make and hang on a pole; those who are bitten by the snakes are to look upon the serpent and live... Jesus, as you know is hung on a cross, and those who look upon Him in faith are saved from the wages of sin
• God's Law itself, given to Moses; as the writer of Hebrews says, the "former commandment (was) set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19)

...sometimes even animals...

• like the lamb or ram without blemish we read about throughout the Pentateuch, even beginning with the ram Abraham provided by God for him to sacrifice instead of Isaac in Genesis 15
• or like the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands on the head of the “scapegoat” and confessed the sins of Israel, transferring their sin to the goat, which was then led out of the city... as Jesus was to Golgotha/Calvary

Even the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.

If you do not "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament in these ways... Well, you should. As Jesus Himself said, the Israelites of the Old Testament had Moses and the Prophets, so they "saw" the coming Messiah in these same ways.


No, of Jesus. See above.


So you think, I understand, but absolutely not. I maintain that you are inadvertently making this setting into something very different than it is.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

Did Jesus say "before the flood"?
I will wait.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not at all. I just don't (inadvertently) make it into something other than it is, as I said.


I didn't say anything was "post-judgment." Here you seem to be putting my comments in a different "setting" than they actually were...


No, I'm telling you that you're taking Jesus's comments out of context. I know your intentions are good, but again, you're taking Jesus's focal point and making it something very different that what it is... more correctly, shifting it to a different person than the group of people it is on. His comments are not about Noah and his family, particularly, at all.


Oh my.


My analogy? No... Well, not originally mine...

"'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).

"...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (Jesus, John 5:46).

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Regarding the Hebrews passage, the writer is in no uncertain terms saying that God spoke in the days before Jesus came in many ways about Jesus, but in these last days ~ after Christ's ascension, at present ~ He has spoken to us by Jesus Himself.


But it is representative of Jesus in Noah's story. All through the Old Testament, Jesus is represented in different ways...

...sometimes by people...

• like Joseph, who is there in Egypt to save his brothers and Israel in general from the famine; what his brothers meant for evil, God meant for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive (Genesis 50:20)
• or Moses, who led his people out of Egypt in the Exodus to the Promised Land
• or King David, who, though the youngest of his brothers was made firstborn ~ king, the foremost ~ over Israel

...and sometimes by objects/things...

• like the ark, which carried/sustained God's people through the storm
• or the manna from heaven of Exodus 16, or the water that flowed from rock which Moses struck with his staff in Exodus 17, through which God sustained and even nourished His people with in the desert (surely you remember what Jesus says in John 6, that "...it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst" ~ John 6:32-35)
• or like the bronze serpent that God instructs Moses to make and hang on a pole; those who are bitten by the snakes are to look upon the serpent and live... Jesus, as you know is hung on a cross, and those who look upon Him in faith are saved from the wages of sin
• God's Law itself, given to Moses; as the writer of Hebrews says, the "former commandment (was) set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19)

...sometimes even animals...

• like the lamb or ram without blemish we read about throughout the Pentateuch, even beginning with the ram Abraham provided by God for him to sacrifice instead of Isaac in Genesis 15
• or like the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands on the head of the “scapegoat” and confessed the sins of Israel, transferring their sin to the goat, which was then led out of the city... as Jesus was to Golgotha/Calvary

Even the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.

If you do not "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament in these ways... Well, you should. As Jesus Himself said, the Israelites of the Old Testament had Moses and the Prophets, so they "saw" the coming Messiah in these same ways.


No, of Jesus. See above.


So you think, I understand, but absolutely not. I maintain that you are inadvertently making this setting into something very different than it is.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

QUOTE
""Even the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.""

You are taking Passover and reframing the blood and the doorpost.
By applying your misplaced analogy,You now have the doorpost representing Jesus.
The passover LAMB was representative of Jesus, NOT the doorpost.
You need the actual understanding:,
IOW the blood of the Lamb ( Jesus' blood) was applied to the mercy seat.
The antitype would be Jesus took his blood to HEAVEN and presented it to the father.
The ark of Noah is a type of the ark in the HOH.
NEITHER ark is a type of Jesus.

But lets play out your supposition.
Before the flood Noah enter Jesus.
Noah and family are removed into Jesus pre judgement and the door is shut.
Jesus, and Noah, rise high into the heavens and stay in the heavens for the entire great tribulation of the flood.
Then Noah returns with Jesus back to earth to start a new kingdom

Ok, not actually correct in entirety, but you just laid out a pretrib removal none the less.

 

[rebuilder 454]

QUOTE
""" ...the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.""

Really a stretch.
Sigh
So you are saying in your "analogy", that Jesus blood was applied to Jesus.
Wow...your analogy is really it there huh????
I am thinking you need to get some studying and commentary on Passover.

Many analogies/types are no brainers.
Of course the brass serpent represents Jesus

Of course the pole is obviously the cross.

To say Jesus blood was applied to Jesus...flat out bizarre.

But we both know you can not go to the setting
In all your sentences, not once have you addressed " before the flood"
I can see that you actually can't go there.
Just keep pretending Jesus did not say "before the flood", and Jesus did not illustrate any setting at all.
So we can conclude that when Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days", that that had nothing to do with anything as far as "setting following an event".
We can look at all the beautiful scenery around Mount Saint Helens, before it exploded ,and then look at the scenery of complete and utter devastation all around that mountain, and we can say, according to your ( no such thing as setting), "no those those two photographs have nothing to do with setting."..." The the one 'after' actually does.
"After the explosion" we get all kinds of setting and meaning. It is a major delight and conversation piece.
" before the explosion" that photo is not at all something we can address. It must be silenced.
"After" is all we may concern ourselves with.

That is your position...correct?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Not at all. I just don't (inadvertently) make it into something other than it is, as I said.


I didn't say anything was "post-judgment." Here you seem to be putting my comments in a different "setting" than they actually were...


No, I'm telling you that you're taking Jesus's comments out of context. I know your intentions are good, but again, you're taking Jesus's focal point and making it something very different that what it is... more correctly, shifting it to a different person than the group of people it is on. His comments are not about Noah and his family, particularly, at all.


Oh my.


My analogy? No... Well, not originally mine...

"'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into His glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself" (Luke 24:25-27).

"...if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (Jesus, John 5:46).

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Regarding the Hebrews passage, the writer is in no uncertain terms saying that God spoke in the days before Jesus came in many ways about Jesus, but in these last days ~ after Christ's ascension, at present ~ He has spoken to us by Jesus Himself.


But it is representative of Jesus in Noah's story. All through the Old Testament, Jesus is represented in diffdoes.reallyways...

...sometimes by people...

• like Joseph, who is there in Egypt to save his brothers and Israel in general from the famine; what his brothers meant for evil, God meant for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive (Genesis 50:20)
• or Moses, who led his people out of Egypt in the Exodus to the Promised Land
• or King David, who, though the youngest of his brothers was made firstborn ~ king, the foremost ~ over Israel

...and sometimes by objects/things...

• like the ark, which carried/sustained God's people through the storm
• or the manna from heaven of Exodus 16, or the water that flowed from rock which Moses struck with his staff in Exodus 17, through which God sustained and even nourished His people with in the desert (surely you remember what Jesus says in John 6, that "...it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst" ~ John 6:32-35)
• or like the bronze serpent that God instructs Moses to make and hang on a pole; those who are bitten by the snakes are to look upon the serpent and live... Jesus, as you know is hung on a cross, and those who look upon Him in faith are saved from the wages of sin
• God's Law itself, given to Moses; as the writer of Hebrews says, the "former commandment (was) set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:18-19)

...sometimes even animals...

• like the lamb or ram without blemish we read about throughout the Pentateuch, even beginning with the ram Abraham provided by God for him to sacrifice instead of Isaac in Genesis 15
• or like the scapegoat of Leviticus 16 on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest placed his hands on the head of the “scapegoat” and confessed the sins of Israel, transferring their sin to the goat, which was then led out of the city... as Jesus was to Golgotha/Calvary

Even the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.

If you do not "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament in these ways... Well, you should. As Jesus Himself said, the Israelites of the Old Testament had Moses and the Prophets, so they "saw" the coming Messiah in these same ways.


No, of Jesus. See above.


So you think, I understand, but absolutely not. I maintain that you are inadvertently making this setting into something very different than it is.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

QUOTE
"""So you think, I understand, but absolutely not. I maintain that you are inadvertently making this setting into something very different than it is."""
Jesus said " before the flood"
I totally agree with Jesus

You say he was confused.
You say that setting is in no way a setting of "before the flood"
You can erroneously REFRAME at will.
But the setting of Jesus description includes ,"marrying, and commerce, and normal life"
Further describing vividly the setting that you can not talk about.

Bizarre my friend.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The FALSE Pre-trib Rapture theory is not... your own idea, you didn't think it up, someone else long before you were born did; his name was John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and he actually got the false theory from others, yet he was one of the first ones to preach it in a Christian Church in Britain.

By claiming... Christ comes to rapture the Church prior... to the "great tribulation", which is what that false doctrine claims, and which YOU have in your own chart, you are doing the same false claim that you know the 'day' of His coming, that you falsely accuse me of! That makes you a hypocrite.

we have verses
You have none pointing to a postrib rapture.
Instead we see rev 14 has a coming and gathering DURING THE TRIB, destroying any hope of being chased from cave to cave by the ac.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I never said that I created the pre-trib rapture view.



No, I never claimed that the rapture would take place the day before the great tribulation begins. No exact day in either my anytime rapture view, nor in the pre-trib rapture view.

You declared an exact day of the rapture of being the day of Jesus's return.

When they pull the "Darby card" lol, you know they have run outta gas big time...lol

 

[Behold]

Paul was executed about 65 AD.

In AD62,.. when Paul wrote Philippians he stated that he had not yet attained to the resurrection.

 

[PinSeeker]

I totally agree with Jesus...

Sure, but you misunderstand him. It's inadvertent, I'm sure.

You say he was confused.

No... I certainly didn't say that, nor would I.

You say that setting is in no way a setting of "before the flood"

No, I didn't say that either. Leading up to the flood, unbelievers were... unbelieving.

You can erroneously REFRAME at will.

Sigh... Yes, I will certainly continue to reframe your erroneous framing of Jesus's comments. Or, more accurately, making the implications of His comments out to be far different than they are.

But the setting of Jesus description includes ,"marrying, and commerce, and normal life"

Sure it does.

Further describing vividly the setting that you can not talk about.

I just don't make it into something it's not... make the implications into something they are not. And there's apparently a pattern there, because that's exactly what you're doing with what I'm saying, too.

QUOTE
""" ...the Mercy Seat itself, which rested on the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle (and later the Temple), was a type/shadow of Jesus. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest sprinkled blood on the Mercy Seat, which makes it a type of Christ, as it foreshadowed the propitiation, or satisfaction of the sin debt, that Jesus would pay for man on the cross.""

Really a stretch.

Not at all.

So you are saying in your "analogy", that Jesus blood was applied to Jesus.

Well, I wouldn't call it an "analogy," but whatever... To the point, Christ is the propitiation; He is the mercy seat. He alone was sufficiently blood-stained by reason of His death on the cross. So yes, the mercy seat is a type, a foreshadowing, of Jesus Christ. Yes, Christ is the mercy seat who was sprinkled with His own blood. If you still disagree, I'm surely okay with that; at least it seems you agree with me that we should all "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament... and that the ancient Israelites of old did, too (at least the believing ones)... according to Jesus Himself.

To say Jesus blood was applied to Jesus...flat out bizarre.

<chuckle> Such misunderstanding.

Bizarre my friend.

Yes, that you have to resort to... Well, I'll just agree that it is a bit bizarre.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:37-39, Like in the days of Noah, the people were warned of the coming flood, as Noah built the Ark, but scoffed at Noah, until the realization hit home when the flood came and they suffered the consequences of it. God had closed the door to the ark after Noah and his family were safely inside.

Why are you being so vague here with your answer? Why not just make it clear to us how you are interpreting verse 39, including where you are placing it in the timeline of events? Do you take it mean at the beginning of great trib, or at the end of it? It would be a contradiction to take it mean at the end of it if you have verses 40-41 meaning at the beginning of it. IOW, one can't divorce verses 40-41 from verse 39.

From what I can tell from post #6 that you submitted, you are applying Matthew 24:40-41 to a rapture event that precedes the beginning of great tribulation. Therefore, to be consistent at least, you would need to do the same with verse 39 since verses 40-41 are meaning during verse 39.

If verses 40-41 are involving a rapture prior to great trib, and that verse 39 happens during verses 40-41, who then goes through great trib if some are raptured from the earth, and the that the ones left behind are wiped out altogether, as in literally, meaning verse 39? Clearly, no one verse 39 is being applied to can still be alive to experience a future trib, meaning from their perspective, the one's meant in verse 39, once verse 39 happens to them.

Obviously then, verse 39 only makes sense if meaning after the trib, not prior to it nor at the beginning of it. Keeping in mind that if the trib is 3.5 years in length, there has to be someone still alive on the earth in order to experience this 3.5 years. Once again, pertaining to verse 39, none of those could possibly still be alive once verse 39 happens to them. And that verses 40-41 are meaning when verse 39 is meaning, let's not ignore that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sure, but you misunderstand him. It's inadvertent, I'm sure.


No... I certainly didn't say that, nor would I.


No, I didn't say that either. Leading up to the flood, unbelievers were... unbelieving.


Sigh... Yes, I will certainly continue to reframe your erroneous framing of Jesus's comments. Or, more accurately, making the implications of His comments out to be far different than they are.


Sure it does.


I just don't make it into something it's not... make the implications into something they are not. And there's apparently a pattern there, because that's exactly what you're doing with what I'm saying, too.


Not at all.


Well, I wouldn't call it an "analogy," but whatever... To the point, Christ is the propitiation; He is the mercy seat. He alone was sufficiently blood-stained by reason of His death on the cross. So yes, the mercy seat is a type, a foreshadowing, of Jesus Christ. Yes, Christ is the mercy seat who was sprinkled with His own blood. If you still disagree, I'm surely okay with that; at least it seems you agree with me that we should all "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament... and that the ancient Israelites of old did, too (at least the believing ones)... according to Jesus Himself.


<chuckle> Such misunderstanding.


Yes, that you have to resort to... Well, I'll just agree that it is a bit bizarre.

Grace and peace to you.

QUOTE
"""I just don't make it into something it's not... make the implications into something they are not. And there's apparently a pattern there, because that's exactly what you're doing with what I'm saying, too."""
I have only reported the setting Jesus described.
Ok, so since that is incorrect, I want to know what the setting is.
You have yet to address it.
You have hit all around it.
You have NEVER addressed it

So what is the setting of Noah and Jesus' use of Noah around that setting???

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sure, but you misunderstand him. It's inadvertent, I'm sure.


No... I certainly didn't say that, nor would I.


No, I didn't say that either. Leading up to the flood, unbelievers were... unbelieving.


Sigh... Yes, I will certainly continue to reframe your erroneous framing of Jesus's comments. Or, more accurately, making the implications of His comments out to be far different than they are.


Sure it does.


I just don't make it into something it's not... make the implications into something they are not. And there's apparently a pattern there, because that's exactly what you're doing with what I'm saying, too.


Not at all.


Well, I wouldn't call it an "analogy," but whatever... To the point, Christ is the propitiation; He is the mercy seat. He alone was sufficiently blood-stained by reason of His death on the cross. So yes, the mercy seat is a type, a foreshadowing, of Jesus Christ. Yes, Christ is the mercy seat who was sprinkled with His own blood. If you still disagree, I'm surely okay with that; at least it seems you agree with me that we should all "see" Jesus throughout the Old Testament... and that the ancient Israelites of old did, too (at least the believing ones)... according to Jesus Himself.


<chuckle> Such misunderstanding.


Yes, that you have to resort to... Well, I'll just agree that it is a bit bizarre.

Grace and peace to you.

Do you ever actually engage in serious debate, ????
Every reply you post is some snippy cute deflection

.
Trolling instead of respecting who you are talking to.
You think hiding behind a smiley and a "blessing" empowers you to disrespect and toy with people ???
Why are you here?????
Just to mess with the body of Christ????

.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are not very old are you.
You waste peoples time in disrespecting in such cunningness.
You are just here to disrespect people who are digging in the word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

postribber challenge.
Show me how to interpret the statements by Jesus he is gathering pre flood
No game playing or disrespect.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you ever actually engage in serious debate, ????

Sure. Do you know how to debate? Or discuss in a civil, congenial way? It seems not...

Every reply you post is some snippy cute deflection...

No deflections. You know, respectfully, you seem such an angry person. I hope not...

Trolling...

Ah, so disagreeing with you, and giving you reasons why, is "trolling?" Well, okay then, guilty as charged.

instead of respecting who you are talking to.

Hard to respect someone's posts when they are filled with vehemence.

Why are you here?????

Probably for about the same reason(s) you are, but in a far different manner, obviously.

Just to mess with the body of Christ????

That seems to be your reason for being here, Rebuilder. To shout everybody who disagrees with you down. But hey, do what you want, certainly.

You are not very old are you.

Plenty old enough not to conduct myself in such an ill manner as you. And probably about the same age as you, actually. Not that it makes any difference whatsoever, but probably.

You waste peoples time in disrespecting in such cunningness.

'Cunningness'... You do know the meaning of that word, right? The quality/skill of being good at planning something so you get what you want, especially by tricking other people...? Yes, I have no respect for such a manner. I would use a couple of other 'C' words to describe your manner of debating: condescension for sure, and possibly condemnation. Yes, I have no respect for that.

You are just here to disrespect people who are digging in the word.

The disrespect is all on your end, Rebuilder. As for me, yes, I will debate folks with whom I disagree, yes, and in as graceful a manner as possible; I think I've done a pretty good job of that in our... "discussion."

No game playing or disrespect.

Yes, by all means, agree with him, or you will be playing games and disrespecting him...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

postribber challenge.
Show me how to interpret the statements by Jesus he is gathering pre flood.
Or....how The gathering Jesus said at his coming will be like lot..IOW gathered prejudgment.
Any postribber want to unpack that?