Are Gentiles excluded from the promise?

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Rex

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He spoke "promised" to the offspring of Abraham then he spoke "promised" to the nations

don't you think that included all nations and people?
I'm to lazy to go threw it again maybe you will accept Gen 12:3 as evidence God was blessing and promising all people everyone.


Take your pick
Gen 22:18 Gen 12:3 Gen 18:18 Gen 26:4


This promise isn't Abraham's or Jacobs it is everyone's the promise is and was Jesus Christ "THE SEED" from Gen 3


15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not sayand to seeds,” as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed, who is Christ. —HCSB
 

Rex

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dragonfly said:
Hi Rex,

I agree with you completely. Amen, brother. :)
I'm happy to here from you and God Bless you as well.

Ask any practicing Jew about Gods promise I assure you he will quote Gen 12:3, on this promise "foundation" is built all the things God did with and through Israel. And more than one prophet noted that God continued with them not because of who they were but for "HIS NAME SAKE" His promise in Gen3

To Dragonfly notice who Paul attributes the promise to Sarah, Sarah was barren not Abraham.

Romans 9

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

This promise is the fulfillment and trail we follow threw-out the whole bible, it is not exclusively Jewish, God made a choice in Abram that threw his barren wife Sarah, He would fulfill his promise to all men and nations, making a way for reconciliation unto Himself. For salvation is of the Jews first that is as true as the sky is blue. But never forget that threw the seed that was born unto Eve then Sarah and Mary was the works of God unto all peoples and nations beginning in Gen 3.

Acts 3
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’[d] 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

Approximately 2018 years from the time of Abrams birth to the birth of Christ. I find it interesting that approximately the same amount of time has so far been allotted to the nations of the Earth.
 
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dragonfly

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Hi Rex,

That was an excellent post! :)


Thank you for Romans 9:9 'I will come'. I had not noticed it except you had highlighted it. Amen and amen!

It is also in line with what Gabriel told Mary. Effectively God was going to come to her, and she, too, would bear a son.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rex.

Rex said:
They rejected Him
Your completely missing the point the indifference between the Pharisee's and Jesus is they denied him.
The law was there golden egg they loved more than God, they thought themselves arbitrators of law, and failed to recognize the law giver and redeemer.



What you should be looking at is Israel of the promise and not Israel of the flesh.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b]8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

I always see the promise as salvation the promise given to Abraham and Sarah THAT INCLUDED ALL THE NATIONS
But you look at what you like

To summarize not all Jews or Hebrews are of the promise, simple enough, or do you still believe all Jews are special simply because they are Jews?
Because I don't see that in the new or old testament.

Please note the word promise in Paul's explanation and the thread title.
Ummmmm... Rex, they ARE special simply because they are Isra'elites! Remember what Sha'uwl Paulos (Saul surnamed Paul) said to the Romans in Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

KJV

Can't you see how special they are? Not for anything they have done, but they ARE special FOR THE FATHERS' SAKES - FOR THE SAKES OF THE PATRIARCHS! The point Paulos was making is this: Those of us who are Gentiles (Hebrew: goyim; Greek: ethnoi) are grafted into Isra'el as WILD OLIVE BRANCHES! There's a word for those kind of branches; they're called branches of an oleaster (Greek: agrielaios), a short, thorny excuse for an olive tree! It's more of a bush than a tree, and they have sorry little berries that vaguely resemble olives. This is no reflection on the Russians, but it is also called a "Russian olive tree."

Amazingly, when the branch of a Russian olive tree is grafted into the stock of a good olive tree, it will enrich the berries that it bears so that they are good olives! There's nothing of value in the branch itself but in the richness of the stock of the good olive tree's trunk! However, even branches broken off the trunk to make room for other branches may themselves be grafted back into the stock and do just as well!

Now, I'll ask you this: Which of the original branches broken off from the Olive Tree of Isra'el are still alive? Just the same, Paulos said, "If they abide not still in unbelief, (they also) shall be grafted in!" Furthermore, it was said to those who boasted against the natural branches, the children of Isra'el by DNA, "Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." So, unless you believe that you could lose your "salvation," this is NOT primarily talking about "salvation" (or rather, "justification by God"), but something else (although it is somewhat related). Furthermore, if the word "they" is talking about the same persons, then a resurrection of those persons must be possible if they are to "abide not still in unbelief." To compound the matter further, he is using the singular form of "you," "THEE!" ("Sou" in Greek, instead of "humoon.") That means he is not talking to a group of people, but to individuals!

From this interesting argument by Paulos, I think that what God does with a person after death is not so "cut and dried" as we might like to think. This is why I believe that Isra'elites will have a second chance to accept their Messiah, even after death, by being resurrected despite having died in unbelief. See, I find a difference between unbelief because of ignorance and willful disbelief, and for the Isra'elites, which includes the Jews, that means that they will have a second chance. It's not because they deserve it "being a Jew"; it's because they are the Messiah's FAMILY - His MISHPACHAH - and that has ALWAYS counted for something among the Isra'elites!

Just some stuff that you (and others) should consider before making any decisions for or against national Isra'el or the Jews.
 

Rex

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Shalom, Retro

Well said, and I do not disagree entirely, the point of contention I have is
From this interesting argument by Paulos, I think that what God does
with a person after death is not so "cut and dried" as we might like to
think. This is why I believe that Isra'elites will have a second chance
to accept their Messiah, even after death,
by being resurrected despite
having died in unbelief.
I am not sold on the concept nor am I sold out on the Idea that some how "Israel" of the flesh "DNA" has obtained a slightly different flavor of salvation, one based on being a descendent of Abraham. I wish there was more NT evidence to support unconditional or second chances for salvation after death for Hebrews but it's sorely absent. The example most often given is as you pointed out Romans 11:11-29 . All the verses before and after all reflect the grafting in as it is called. In reality it is simple fulfilling the Promise to Abraham. If we simply count Gentile verses that indicate an equal but first served atributes the Jews received they far out number the aparent special privlegas that has been taught from Romans 11 for the Nation of Israel "all members by birth right"

An interesting point you make, I also have pondered your statement and come to the same conclusion, we really don't know.
From this interesting argument by Paulos, I think that what
God does with a person after death is not so "cut and dried" as we might
like to think.
The fact of the matter is ever since I have read and followed your understanding I believe this to be the only point of contention between us.
I'm not about to allow it to become a stumbling block with a brother. Perhaps some day we may yet discover we are brothers in Spirit and Blood as well.

Interestingly enough quite a number of years ago I had a reply "an understanding" If you will of Romans 11 but as much as I have desired for the Lord to bring it to remembrance it continues to escape the abilities of my flesh.
You continue to hold on to those 3.5 years and I will continue to believe all 7 were fulfilled, but lets not lose sight of the real prize.

God bless you Retro.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Rex.

Rex said:
Shalom, Retro

Well said, and I do not disagree entirely, the point of contention I have is

I am not sold on the concept nor am I sold out on the Idea that some how "Israel" of the flesh "DNA" has obtained a slightly different flavor of salvation, one based on being a descendent of Abraham. I wish there was more NT evidence to support unconditional or second chances for salvation after death for Hebrews but it's sorely absent. The example most often given is as you pointed out Romans 11:11-29 . All the verses before and after all reflect the grafting in as it is called. In reality it is simple fulfilling the Promise to Abraham. If we simply count Gentile verses that indicate an equal but first served atributes the Jews received they far out number the aparent special privlegas that has been taught from Romans 11 for the Nation of Israel "all members by birth right"

An interesting point you make, I also have pondered your statement and come to the same conclusion, we really don't know.

The fact of the matter is ever since I have read and followed your understanding I believe this to be the only point of contention between us.
I'm not about to allow it to become a stumbling block with a brother. Perhaps some day we may yet discover we are brothers in Spirit and Blood as well.

Interestingly enough quite a number of years ago I had a reply "an understanding" If you will of Romans 11 but as much as I have desired for the Lord to bring it to remembrance it continues to escape the abilities of my flesh.
You continue to hold on to those 3.5 years and I will continue to believe all 7 were fulfilled, but lets not lose sight of the real prize.

God bless you Retro
You said, "I am not sold on the concept nor am I sold out on the Idea that some how 'Israel' of the flesh 'DNA' has obtained a slightly different flavor of salvation, one based on being a descendent of Abraham." I'm in agreement with you on this basic understanding; I really don't want you to think that they HAVE a "slightly different flavor of salvation."

However, I DO want you to consider that maybe, just maybe, death does NOT end all! Consider this: why are the disbelievers resurrected before they are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment and THEN consigned to the Lake of Fire and Sulfur? I think I know the answer, because I believe that a person is not complete without his physical body, whether that physical body is a "soulish" (breathing) body or has been enhanced into a "spiritual" (blasting) body. It's simple math: body + spirit = soul, just like body (Hebrew: geviyah; Greek: sooma) + breath (Hebrew: ruach; Greek: pneuma) = breather (Hebrew: nefesh; Greek: psuchee). Just as the person doesn't exist without the spirit, so the person doesn't exist without the body.

If Isra'elites have died without knowing the Messiah or having even a chance to know the Messiah, then what makes one think that He won't give them that chance? Many have died thinking that the "Christ Jesus" was a warmonger, desiring the Crusades and Inquisitions done in His name! They NEVER HAD THE CHANCE TO KNOW HIM! And, those who called themselves "Christians" weren't any help! If that's all they knew about this person called "Jesus Christ," then what makes one think that God won't first set the matter straight, before He passes judgment? The God I know wouldn't do that to those who never knew, who never had the chance, who - for their part - are innocent in their fear of this "God of the Gentiles, Jesus Christ!"

Do you think this is just philosophy? I believe that there are Scripture verses that support this viewpoint but are couched in passages that the majority of Christians both have not studied nor have truly understood. Such passages as Zechariah 12, for instance, seem to me to be clear indicators that the families who were the Messiah's forefathers will all be resurrected together in order for them to mourn together the mistreatment of their Grandson!

Anyway, that's my take on this subject.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Retrobyter,


If that's all they knew about this person called "Jesus Christ," then what makes one think that God won't first set the matter straight, before He passes judgment? The God I know wouldn't do that to those who never knew, who never had the chance, who - for their part - are innocent in their fear of this "God of the Gentiles, Jesus Christ!"
Don't all Israelites have access to the Hebrew scriptures - unlike how a certain denomination made its business to separate its members from the scriptures?

Luke 16: 31 And he [Jesus] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



I'm sure I don't need to quote from Deuteronomy 18 and Acts 3 to emphasise how well known Moses' prophecy was, to every Israelite.


John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.



It's so well known, some of them are still waiting!
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Let me put it another way that should make it easier to understand and rationalize ....

Does God have a covenant with Israel ?
Yes of course He does

Does God have a covenant with Christians through Jesus Christ ?
Yes of course he does.

Are christians ever disobedient ?
Yes , very often

Is Israel ever disobedient ?
Yes , very often

In spite of disobedient Christians ..... God will still keep his promises to them ..... even though they do not deserve it.

In spite of disobedient Israel...... God will still keep his promises to them .... even though they do not deserve it.

......................


(The following is just speculation on my part).

When God says "All Israel will be saved' ..... I expect he will do it through Christ somehow in the end ..... they just dont know it yet ..... and we dont know how he will do it either

All we know for sure is that he will somehow fulfill all the promises .
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,



Don't all Israelites have access to the Hebrew scriptures - unlike how a certain denomination made its business to separate its members from the scriptures?

Luke 16: 31 And he [Jesus] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Maybe today they do, but that hasn't always been the case. Throughout European history prior to the advent of the Gutenberg press (and even long afterward), all copies of the Torah (and more rarely the whole Tanakh) were handcopied and very expensive. It was a VERY big deal when a synagogue could finally afford to buy a Torah! This is why the oral traditions were so important! They will STILL parade the Torah around the room on Simchah Torah today, the holiday commemorating the giving of the Torah! It was even more of a celebration when a congregation could finally, collectively afford a Torah! Portions of the Tanakh (the whole OT) were even more rare and thus more expensive. Most synagogues could only afford portions of the Tanakh, usually only those sections most popular in keeping with the Haftorahs - the additional readings they would read in addition to the section of the Torah they would read each week! If they had a Torah, they would read through the Torah once each year, and on Simchah Torah, they would roll the scroll back to the beginning to be read again in the next year. Thus, they had to rely heavily on their rabbis. Sometimes, their rabbi was the ONLY person who may have actually SEEN a Torah scroll!

dragonfly said:
I'm sure I don't need to quote from Deuteronomy 18 and Acts 3 to emphasise how well known Moses' prophecy was, to every Israelite.


John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.



It's so well known, some of them are still waiting!
No, it's NOT! What was true in Yeshua`s day is not very true today. Most modern Jews today are shielded from their own Torahs by their Rabbis like Catholics are shielded from the Bible by their own Priests! They are no more encouraged to read the Scriptures for themselves than Catholics are! They may have brief glimpses into the Truth, as in their Seder feasts during Pesach (Passover), but seldom is what they might hear or read on the holidays explained, and if a rabbi DOES choose to explain it to an inquisitive youth, you can imagine how divorced from the Messiah Yeshua` his explanation will be! Furthermore, the rabbis themselves will pass along their own fears, distrust, fables and animosity about the "Jesus Christ" of the Gentile "Christians" to such a degree that a Jew can vaguely hear ABOUT "Jesus Christ" and never make the connection that "Christ" means "Messiah!" And, if they've EVER heard of "John the Baptist," they would NEVER make the connection that he came in the "spirit of Eliyahu (Elijah)!" To this day, they expect Eliyahu to come prior to the coming of the Messiah and set a place for him at their Seder feasts!

Many Christians, particularly Evangelicals, will say that children are "safe" should they die before the "age of accountability" because they are yet in their innocence. They are not held accountable for their actions because they are innocent! Well, all I'm saying is that IF God would overlook the sins of a child in his innocence, then why wouldn't He extend His grace to those who died in their ignorance? Some already make this claim for tribes of men who have never been introduced to the Gospel; so, why wouldn't God extend His grace to Yeshua`s own family, the Isra'elites, for the sakes of the Fathers? I believe He will! He's not an ogre, you know, nor is He unreasonable. Again, these are just some thoughts; I'm not going to make a federal case of this, nor am I ready to stake my life on such a doctrine. It's just something I've been pondering.
 

dragonfly

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Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your fuller observations of the current situation.

Bearing in mind your last paragraph, on which I'll comment in more detail, let me start with these thoughts. I'm sure you'll recognise scriptures which support them.

God scattered Israelites throughout the nations to make His name known among the nations, and we know there were Israelites who travelled, such as Dan (with reference to the sea) long before Israel was divided during Rehoboam's day. There is plenty of history of proselytes before Christ.

I 'hear' your comment about the importance of traditions, but in just the same way as most Israelites/Jews did not have a personal copy of the Tanakh - and yet they still knew that Moses had promised 'that Prophet', and two thousand years later were still watching for Him - there is no secret that millions and millions of people worldwide in the following two millennia, have come to believe in the Man sent by God whom all were descendants of Israel or proselytes initially, only. These first followers of Messiah Jesus could show from the Tanakh how He fulfilled every prophet concerning Messiah.

Mainly, I am saying that there can be few, if any, 'Jews', today, who are not aware of the claims of Christians, even if they are being guided away from faith by their own religious leadership. The same Messiah promised greater damnation for such leaders.

When I look at how God dealt with Israel before Messiah came, and how harshly and consistently He did not let generation after generation die without punishment, considering the reminders in the feasts which are kept by orthodox Jews today, I cannot see why God would hold today's Israelites to a lesser standard. This is the real meaning of giving them an edge over other nations, by insisting they are still 'God's chosen people'. If they are indeed still God's chosen people, then He has not changed, and the terms of His appeasement have not changed, and He will judge them righteously.

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard, there was only one vineyard. I think it's a mistake to imagine that today's Israelites are exempt from responsibility for understanding the world around them as it is, replete with Christians who believe in the Saviour who was born out of Judah. As Jesus said, 'My sheep hear my voice'. That applies to all, including Israelites/Jews alive today, no matter how they come to have the appellation.


Many Christians, particularly Evangelicals, will say that children are "safe" should they die before the "age of accountability" because they are yet in their innocence. They are not held accountable for their actions because they are innocent! Well, all I'm saying is that IF God would overlook the sins of a child in his innocence, then why wouldn't He extend His grace to those who died in their ignorance? Some already make this claim for tribes of men who have never been introduced to the Gospel; so, why wouldn't God extend His grace to Yeshua`s own family, the Isra'elites, for the sakes of the Fathers? I believe He will! He's not an ogre, you know, nor is He unreasonable.
First, there is no biblical support for children being safe before the age of accountability, if you lay that beside Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. The thinking you describe is pure guesswork, as children are covered by their parents' (parent's) faith. No faith; no cover.

Regarding those descended from Abraham, and those proselytised into Judaism as it is has become, they have no excuse whatever. Of those naturally born Israelites/Jews, who have already turned away from God to idols... why would He judge them differently than of old? If they know anything about Judaism at all, then they know about Passover, and the miracles in the wilderness, and the 'land', and they have chosen otherwise.

What is it about Israelites and Jews that they are credited with needing more opportunity than they already had, which is more opportunity than the rest of the world? I do not understand the rationale. If they are cute enough to turn away from God to their own devices, they are cute enough to repent. This is only the same 'standard' expected of Gentiles, who also are required to turn away from idols to seek the living God.

There is more weight in scripture to suggest that Israelites and Jews will receive a greater punishment for their unbelief, than a greater mercy.

The whole of Isaiah 40 comes to mind, beginning as it does:


1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished,
that her iniquity is pardoned:
for she has received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

I think I don't believe that 'ignorance' applies to those who know they are descended from Israel or Judah. The fact is, there are many who thought they were Gentiles, who also are descended from Israel or Judah, who either 'hear His voice' and believe, or, who hear it and choose unbelief. In all cases, of unbelief, surely John 16:9 applies? Or, do you have another way of interpreting it, which lets descendants of Israel and Judah off the hook, again?
 
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Arnie Manitoba

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Lets back up a bit to the title of this thread......

" ..... Are gentiles excluded from the promises made to Israel ? .... "

I think the proper way to approach this subject is as follows ...

1. God made the initial promises to Israel exclusively
2. Israel is often referred to as The Olive Tree
3. Christ came and not all of Israel embraced Him
4. Partly to mock them and make them envious God decided to let the Gentiles in on the promises
5. Paul describes Israel like an olive tree and a branch has been grafted on to the tree for the gentiles
6. In that way we gentiles can be recipients of the promises to Israel
7. But not exclusively
8. Because the complete olive tree still remains
9. Many gentile Christians try to chop down the Olive tree israel
10. Without realizing they would fall down with it.
11.God will keep His promises to Israel
12. And the gentiles will also be recipients of the promises.

But will we be recipients of ALL the promises ???? ..... I dont think so ..... God seems to Hold Israel several notches higher than anyone else ..... God comes to live and rule in Israel ..... 10 gentiles will grab the hem of one Jew to go into the New Jerusalem

We may feel it is arrogant to place Israel a notch higher than the gentile Christian Church ..... but we are guilty of being even more arrogant if we are trying to place ourselves a notch or two above Israel.

Bottom line is that The LORD God of Israel appears to be biased toward Israel and shows favoritism to them .... whether we like it or not ..... it is Gods show ..... not ours.

he will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy ...... even upon disobedient unbelieving Israel ..... He says that clearly in the bible ..... the point he is trying to make is His huge capacity for mercy ..... we should not be trying to undermine it.

We gentile Christians also receive a huge portion of mercy from God ..... maybe not as much mercy as Israel will receive but that is beside the point

remember also that because of un-beleif Israel has been punished and scattered and terminated and exterminated , causted and holocausted ... no forgiveness for them ..... only punishment.

yet a remnant remains just like God said it would ..... they have survived everything the world has thrown at them .... they are being regathered to the Land God gave Jacob .... just like God said they would be .... they are flourishing and succeeding just as promised .... and all the surrounding nations still hate them just like god said they would

But one day God will prove Himself Holy when he takes care of those hateful nations

The Gentile Christian church should be wise and not hate Israel

Do not try to chop down the olive tree

You will fall with it.
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Lets back up a bit to the title of this thread......



1. God made the initial promises to Israel exclusively

4. Partly to mock them and make them envious God decided to let the Gentiles in on the promises

Do not try to chop down the olive tree

You will fall with it.
You really think the Gentiles or everyone that is not a Jew was some sort of after thought in Gods plan?
I'll repeat myself, before Jacob was ever born and wrestled with the Lord, then named Israel, God had already promised salvation to all nations and peoples threw the Jews.
You should really read a bit instead of simply gleaning information from where ever you get it from.

Gen 12:3 Gen 18:18 Gen 22:18 Gen 26:4
These are the promises that all Jews refer as foundational when they speak of the promise from God, I everyone of them, all peoples and nations are included.
The promise is not to the Jews exclusively, If you can't get your head around that, then it's equally useless to discus conditional and unconditional promises as well. This BTW is an unconditional promise "unbreakable"
 

dragonfly

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Hi Arnie,

I would pick the same two points which Rex has, to challenge. They are both skewed by a modern doctrine which has no foundation in scripture.

I hope you can trust the apostle Paul's appraisal of Israel's history, since a Pharisee could repeat the Pentateuch by heart. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit was sent to all of us to interpret it from God's point of view.
1. God made the initial promises to Israel exclusively
You might like to read the preceding verses to get more context for those that I quote, but please don't get tangled up with the law, which was given a long time after Abraham, about whom Paul is writing:

Romans 4:Comes this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

[Note: the reference to those 'of the law' in v 16 is to those who kept the law faithfully and died before Christ came. Hebrews 9:11 - 15, esp 15]


With reference to faith like Abraham's faith, while writing to a predominantly Gentile church Paul expounds in more detail:


Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Okay so far? Do you know what 'the promise' was? (It was not the promise of the land given to Abraham.) The answer is in Hebrews 9:


11
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


With all this in mind, if you have now been able to skew your reasoning back into line with scripture, your point 4. is a gross overstatement.


Those of natural Israel (and subsequently those Gentiles) who received the Holy Spirit at the time of the apostles and down the centuries ever since then, are the only 'Israel' which is going to receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


From the time of Christ onwards, there have always been unbelievers who wanted to destroy the children of the promise. We were warned. I don't think that what we see today is much different than has taken place for centuries under one guise or another. Israelites and Jews who are also (clearly) unbelievers (because they refuse to recognise their Messiah in Jesus who fufilled all relevant Biblical prophecy) have capitalised on Gentile ignorance of their scriptures, and have fostered false and carnal doctrine for the furtherance of their own ends. Having a vail over the understanding of their hearts for the same reason as their forefathers wanted Moses to cover his face so they could not see the glory which the presence of the Lord had wrought upon him, they will continue to reason incorrectly about the meaning of scriptures, until/unless they individually turn to Christ. Then the vail will fly off their hearts, and they will receive understanding through the Holy Spirit of the same spiritual truths expounded by Paul.



Remember, too, that God promised the Saviour of mankind to Eve, in the garden of Eden. Noah was born less than a fifty six years after Adam died, and must have learned a great deal from his father, and grandfather Methuselah, who died the year before the Flood. Abraham was born into the same generation as Noah's sons were still living, and when God promised that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed, he was able to believe that God, the author of life, could create life in him and his wife, and repopulate the whole earth. The history of mankind up till that point was full of people who had been the first to do/be something which had never been before. Abraham was not afraid to be another 'first'.


And then, as a sign to remind himself and his descendants of the righteousness of faith, God told him to circumcise himself. Truly, this was a cutting off of fleshly hope, which has been real to a veritable handful of his descendants, as recorded by scripture, generation after generation.


Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Colossians 1: '... I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


The point Paul is making is that generation after generation had lost the meaning of the promise to Abraham. He is not saying that God did not know what He had promised to Abraham. He is saying that now, through Christ's sacrifice, which the Father received on our behalf and sent the Holy Spirit, we have the eyes of our understanding enlightened, now also understanding His wisdom and His eternal plan. Ephesians 1:18 - 23.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Rex said:
You really think the Gentiles or everyone that is not a Jew was some sort of after thought in Gods plan?
I'll repeat myself, before Jacob was ever born and wrestled with the Lord, then named Israel, God had already promised salvation to all nations and peoples threw the Jews.
You should really read a bit instead of simply gleaning information from where ever you get it from.

Gen 12:3 Gen 18:18 Gen 22:18 Gen 26:4
These are the promises that all Jews refer as foundational when they speak of the promise from God, I everyone of them, all peoples and nations are included.
The promise is not to the Jews exclusively, If you can't get your head around that, then it's equally useless to discus conditional and unconditional promises as well. This BTW is an unconditional promise "unbreakable"
I am not disputing any of that and I am not trying to split hairs , and I am not trying to force fit Israel into some special pet doctrine of mine.

as a matter of fact I could personally care less about Israel ..... besides none of this has anything to do with what I think or what I believe.

It simply comes down to the fact that God has not written Israel off and replaced Her with a couple of million Gentile Christians in North America

We American Christians think we are the center of the universe.

Anyone on this forum is free to black out the name Israel from their bible if they want ...... write your own name in there if you want .... it doesn't matter to me one tiny bit ..... convince yourself all Israel is going to hell and you alone are going to Heaven ..... I could care less what anyone does.

To be fair it is maybe not completely our fault .... all of our theology books cover nearly every subject except Israel

Jewish believers such as ''Arnold Fruchtenbaum'' have recently produced some good textbooks such as
"Israelology" .... "The Missing Link in Systematic Theology"

I recently purchased Arnold Fruchtenbaum's book but have not read any of it yet ...... it is over 1000 pages of Israel theology ...... if I come across any useful information that may benefit us i will post it at that time.

As far as my personal opinion ..... ask me if i think Israel deserves salvation .... I might answer no ..... But in the same breath I would have to acknowledge that i do not deserve salvation either.

I also confess to being somewhat confused about God's plans for Israel .... they appear to be outside of salvation as we know it .... yet remain within Gods favorable plans for the future.

but because of my uncertainties on this whole subject I certainly will not stroke out the name of Israel from my bible and replace it with my own.

That I know for sure.
 

Rex

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Arnie Manitoba said:
I am not disputing any of that and I am not trying to split hairs , and I am not trying to force fit Israel into some special pet doctrine of mine.

as a matter of fact I could personally care less about Israel ..... besides none of this has anything to do with what I think or what I believe.

It simply comes down to the fact that God has not written Israel off and replaced Her with a couple of million Gentile Christians in North America

We American Christians think we are the center of the universe.

Anyone on this forum is free to black out the name Israel from their bible if they want ...... write your own name in there if you want .... it doesn't matter to me one tiny bit ..... convince yourself all Israel is going to hell and you alone are going to Heaven ..... I could care less what anyone does.

To be fair it is maybe not completely our fault .... all of our theology books cover nearly every subject except Israel

Jewish believers such as ''Arnold Fruchtenbaum'' have recently produced some good textbooks such as
"Israelology" .... "The Missing Link in Systematic Theology"

I recently purchased Arnold Fruchtenbaum's book but have not read any of it yet ...... it is over 1000 pages of Israel theology ...... if I come across any useful information that may benefit us i will post it at that time.

As far as my personal opinion ..... ask me if i think Israel deserves salvation .... I might answer no ..... But in the same breath I would have to acknowledge that i do not deserve salvation either.

I also confess to being somewhat confused about God's plans for Israel .... they appear to be outside of salvation as we know it .... yet remain within Gods favorable plans for the future.

but because of my uncertainties on this whole subject I certainly will not stroke out the name of Israel from my bible and replace it with my own.

That I know for sure.
Israel is not outside of Gods salvation has never been nor will ever be, But not all Israel is Israel.

In the bible I can't find one instance of the Lord harding or turning away from someone who's heart is searching for him.
To presume that is the case in Romans 11 for Israel is to IMO to do injustice to the heart of Gods plan for grace and salvation.
Like Jesus said in Matthew 23, you shall not see me until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord.

Now you can paint me with the extremest view you have above but agglutinating from extreme to extreme to make a point is an injustices as well.

In light of the promise to Abraham these statements have absolutely no foundation. Retro himself is evidence that God has not forsaken Israel.
1. God made the initial promises to Israel exclusively


4. Partly to mock them and make them envious God decided to let the Gentiles in on the promises
 

dragonfly

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Hi Rex,


Like Jesus said in Matthew 23, you shall not see me until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord
Sounds as if you know what that verse means, too. :) I've had several discussions with people who just don't get it. I don't get how they don't get it!
 

whitestone

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dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,

Thank you for your fuller observations of the current situation.

Bearing in mind your last paragraph, on which I'll comment in more detail, let me start with these thoughts. I'm sure you'll recognise scriptures which support them.

God scattered Israelites throughout the nations to make His name known among the nations, and we know there were Israelites who travelled, such as Dan (with reference to the sea) long before Israel was divided during Rehoboam's day. There is plenty of history of proselytes before Christ.

I 'hear' your comment about the importance of traditions, but in just the same way as most Israelites/Jews did not have a personal copy of the Tanakh - and yet they still knew that Moses had promised 'that Prophet', and two thousand years later were still watching for Him - there is no secret that millions and millions of people worldwide in the following two millennia, have come to believe in the Man sent by God whom all were descendants of Israel or proselytes initially, only. These first followers of Messiah Jesus could show from the Tanakh how He fulfilled every prophet concerning Messiah.

Mainly, I am saying that there can be few, if any, 'Jews', today, who are not aware of the claims of Christians, even if they are being guided away from faith by their own religious leadership. The same Messiah promised greater damnation for such leaders.

When I look at how God dealt with Israel before Messiah came, and how harshly and consistently He did not let generation after generation die without punishment, considering the reminders in the feasts which are kept by orthodox Jews today, I cannot see why God would hold today's Israelites to a lesser standard. This is the real meaning of giving them an edge over other nations, by insisting they are still 'God's chosen people'. If they are indeed still God's chosen people, then He has not changed, and the terms of His appeasement have not changed, and He will judge them righteously.

In the parable of the workers in the vineyard, there was only one vineyard. I think it's a mistake to imagine that today's Israelites are exempt from responsibility for understanding the world around them as it is, replete with Christians who believe in the Saviour who was born out of Judah. As Jesus said, 'My sheep hear my voice'. That applies to all, including Israelites/Jews alive today, no matter how they come to have the appellation.



First, there is no biblical support for children being safe before the age of accountability, if you lay that beside Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. The thinking you describe is pure guesswork, as children are covered by their parents' (parent's) faith. No faith; no cover.

Regarding those descended from Abraham, and those proselytised into Judaism as it is has become, they have no excuse whatever. Of those naturally born Israelites/Jews, who have already turned away from God to idols... why would He judge them differently than of old? If they know anything about Judaism at all, then they know about Passover, and the miracles in the wilderness, and the 'land', and they have chosen otherwise.

What is it about Israelites and Jews that they are credited with needing more opportunity than they already had, which is more opportunity than the rest of the world? I do not understand the rationale. If they are cute enough to turn away from God to their own devices, they are cute enough to repent. This is only the same 'standard' expected of Gentiles, who also are required to turn away from idols to seek the living God.

There is more weight in scripture to suggest that Israelites and Jews will receive a greater punishment for their unbelief, than a greater mercy.

The whole of Isaiah 40 comes to mind, beginning as it does:


1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her,
that her warfare is accomplished,
that her iniquity is pardoned:
for she has received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

I think I don't believe that 'ignorance' applies to those who know they are descended from Israel or Judah. The fact is, there are many who thought they were Gentiles, who also are descended from Israel or Judah, who either 'hear His voice' and believe, or, who hear it and choose unbelief. In all cases, of unbelief, surely John 16:9 applies? Or, do you have another way of interpreting it, which lets descendants of Israel and Judah off the hook, again?
Well said Dragonfly, Amen. The promises to Abraham confirmed and ratified in those "out of the nations (gentiles) will I call my people". As is also understood amongst all the brethren;

Act 10:35

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:36


The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)


Episkopos said:
Gentiles are grafted into Israel when they are born of the Spirit. In Christ there is no DNA that separates us from each other. :)
You could not have said it more succinctly brother :) Blessings to you fellow Israelite!
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Just a quick note for now .....

I actually agree with nearly every comment on this thread .... even the ones who oppose what I said.

I started out 27 years ago as a typical Christian who felt that the Jews and Israel who rejected Jesus Christ were now excluded from salvation as we know it.

To me it was game over for them without Christ .

As a matter of fact I still want to feel that way today. The bible is very clear that Christ is the only way.

Yet there remains a the fact that God still has some favorable plans for Israel ..... even before they accept Christ .

And then there is the part where God says all Israel will be saved ..... and it is written in the context that much of Israel had already rejected salvation through Christ.

Hard to put into words properly but it is almost like God allows a portion of Israel to reject Christ and author his crucifixion in order to fulfill prophecy etc ..... and to eventually show them how wrong they were to do so ..... yet save them in the end anyway as a demonstration of God's great mercy.

It is like God will save all Israel in spite of themselves ...... and after the fact ....... in spite of their current unbelief.

Maybe in the end God will "funnel" unbelieving Israel through Christ in order to fulfill the requirements of righteousness .

If you think that sounds convoluted I Agree !!! :)

Anyway ..... bottom line is that I agree with most of the comments on this topic .... hopefully I can find time this weekend to read what the Jewish - Christian - Scholar 'Arnold Fruchtenbaum' has to say about it. .... he is highly regarded by many theologians.