Are the words of Jesus still meant for Christians?
- Thread starter Episkopos
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Bingo sister . none of the writings of any of the apostels contradicted each other or CHRIST . THEY aint opposed .
Spot on right sister . Just keep marching onward in the LORD sister .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Onward in the trenches sister . We gonna point to CHRIST and all HE did teach as well as the apostels who were inspired
by the SPIRIT . The bible is our book too . You just march on and praise the LORD .
Behold
Well-Known Member
Paul preached "Christ Crucified", is what you need to understand..., as then you are teaching Paul's actual Gospel and not your usual doctrine of self justification Hybrid Calvinism.... that is always careful to omit the Cross of Christ, or as you referred to Him on the Cross, as : "whipping boy".
The Gospel of the Grace of God, is "Paul's Gospel", and this is the "preaching of the Cross that is the power of God unto Salvation, to all who BELIEVE"....
Also.....The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom, that a believer is born again into by the Holy Spirit, as soon as they give God their Faith in Christ.
This is a MYSTERY< because God and Christ are the KINGDOM, and they come also to live IN the Born again Spirit of the Believer.
Paul teaches ALL this as...>"being Translated from Darkness, ... TO LIGHT".
This "LIGHT" is the "LIGHT that God exists in..... = "God exists IN Light", and Jesus is the "LIGHT of the World" who shines out of Darkness"".
So, when a person is born again, they become a "CHILD of THE LIGHT", and this Light is Christ, and God, and Truth, and the KOG.
Its all of it.
And once a person gives God their Faith, their "faith is counted as righteousness", and God brings them into eternal spiritual union with Himself, into the KOG........ that Paul teaches as being "in Christ', and having become "ONE with God".
John teaches it like this....>"As Christ IS....so are the born again.... in this World".
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Epi preaches EPI and him crucified . a christless cross . as though man can pick up his own cross WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS
and save himself . That aint gonna happen .
Now i know , some folks are gonna say , but ol amigo my grandma was a good hearted woman
she gave goods to the poor , she helped the sick , she looked out for folks . just cause she rejected CHRIST
and followed budda is gonna condmen her . She was a good lady man .
TO WHICH I WOULD REMIND EVERYONE OF THIS . THERE IS NONE THAT IS GOOD , THAT ALL NEED THE SAVIOR .
DENY HIM YE SHALL BE DENIED . Have all faith in HIM and YOU BE COUNTED MADE RIGHTEOUS , YOU BE JUSTIFIED
from all things by which the law COULD NOT JUSTIFY YOU NOR YE BE JUSTIFED BY THE LAW .
AKA . ITS TIME WE PREACHED JESUS CHRIST and no otherfalse hope .
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
The other interesting thing is that Christians tend to elevate the "words of Jesus"
over the words of Paul, due to the fact of who Jesus is in comparison, I suppose. But...
As I mentioned earlier somewhere, Paul wrote his letters and sent them, so to speak.
The "words of Jesus" where written quotes that were recorded some thirty years after the
stories were only an oral tradition. And there appears to have been some tampering
evident in the manuscripts, none of which we still have.
And quotes compared between gospel accounts don't match. So, what WERE the words of Jesus?
I guess we don't know EXACTLY.
Imagine not reading/viewing anything about the 9/11 attacks until the year 2030.
Which is still seven years away.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I have considered that view and frankly would not have a problem with it. Only scriptures show us a triune God. You're good with numbers, but I am afraid you have missed something important that confounds you. Jesus said that both He and the Father would send another Helper, the Comforter and that if he didn't go, this Helper would not come. There is a distinction there. He is a person, distinct from the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son and teaches us all the the Son has taught. We are to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. 1+1+1=3
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:" Why would Jesus make that request if they shared the same spirit?
Jesus always had a spirit, yet when he was baptized, the Father spoke from heaven and the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
@Episkopos
I find myself giving Thumbs-Up for both sides of the Trinity discussion, - LOL
Seeing value in both views. As you have noted, the Spirit aspect is the question.
How does that work, when both Christ and Father God have a (s)Spirit?
On the other hand, Jesus refers to the comforter as a person. (he)
At least as translated/mistranslated?
All three are present at Jesus baptism with John the Baptist.
Jesus comes out of the water, John sees the Spirit descend like a dove,
and the Father speaks audibly.
I find myself giving Thumbs-Up for both sides of the Trinity discussion, - LOL
Seeing value in both views. As you have noted, the Spirit aspect is the question.
How does that work, when both Christ and Father God have a (s)Spirit?
On the other hand, Jesus refers to the comforter as a person. (he)
At least as translated/mistranslated?
All three are present at Jesus baptism with John the Baptist.
Jesus comes out of the water, John sees the Spirit descend like a dove,
and the Father speaks audibly.
That Holy Spirit also said that Jesus was His Son. So that was the Spirit of the Father. You are making a spirit to be a separate person....which the bible does not teach.
I said that God is One Spirit...not One Person.
God is One Spirit divided into TWO Persons.
Each Person has a PORTION of that same Spirit. Jesus has the lesser portion. When Jesus "gave up the ghost" on the cross, His Person left his mortal body.
We humans also have a spirit...but ours are NOT one with each other. We are empty vessels. God is a life giving Spirit.
If Jesus and His Spirit are 2 Persons, and the Father and His Spirit are 2 Persons...2+2=4
Then if you want to add in ANOTHER Spirit as a separate Person again , then you have 5 Persons. Very confused thinking IMHO
No, God is One Spirit in 2 Persons..Father and Son...just like the Bible teaches. Elohim
Paul says this...
1 Cor. 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Did Paul think a man's spirit is a separate person from the man himself.?
So there is the Spirit of the Father...God's Spirit. And the Spirit of Christ...the Son. These two are One (Echad)
Hear O Israel, the Lord your God AND the Lord ARE One (Echad).
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This is not an easy thing for us humans to grasp and not something to divide over in my opinion, as long as nobody denies any of the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit.
However I would like to point out that scripture says Jesus had the Spirit without measure, and believers are the ones who have only a measure of the Holy Spirit. With this topic there seem to be arguments on all sides no matter how you look at it. (There is even some mystery in why there is no forgiveness for someone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, and woe betide any who lie to the Spirit like Ananias and Saphira did.) Maybe this whole subject is even what scripture is alluding to where it says who can fathom the Lord. We maybe need to humbly accept that there are things we will never fully understand this side of heaven. There are things that God reserves to Himself.
It almost seems like the distinction between a husband and wife, they are one flesh and yet two distinct persons. Maybe that would help to explain why there seem to be valid arguments on all sides. I believe Eve is a type/shadow of the Holy Spirit born from the side of the Saviour (Adam being a figure of he who was to come)....portrayed by the water and blood that poured from the Lamb of God on the cross....Eve was the mother of all living....the bible says our mother is above and we are born of her. But who can fathom these things really, we have clues and a partial understanding. It's why I don't like "creeds".....they often seem to fall short.
Amen, it is a mystery, the born again believer is one spirit with Christ and God, through the indescribable gift of His Spirit that lives in us:
1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Scripture please?
I am not making the Spirit to be anything. Jesus said, the Father would send you "another" Helper, the Comforter, ( John 14:16-17)Who aside from all that He teaches us and gives us, He bears witness to Christ, glorifies Christ.
Jesus baptized us with the Holy Spirit.
" But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, (1) Whom the Father (2) will send in MY name (3), He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that Isaid to you." John 14:26.
You cannot bypass the specific distinction between persons that Jesus is laying out here.
" Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send HIM to you..." John 16:7-8
Can't you see the distinction here? If Jesus was the Holy Spirit, He would not make that statement. As long as Jesus was with them the Holy Spirit would not come. You have and will continue to wrestle with this.
What do you think He is saying, "I am here but I am not ... I am with you but my spirit is not ... I need to go away physically so that I can detach my spirit, refer to it as someone else and send him to you"
WRONG!
YOU ARE CONFUSED.
No, we have body, soul and spirit.
We are born spiritually dead and so you can say we are empty vessels. But when we are born again, we are made into a new creature, our spirit is alive and the the Holy Spirit takes up residence in us and communes with our spirit. Like then OT Temple, we have a special room, the Most Holy Place where the Holy Spirit resides, where we commune with Him, separate from the outer courtyard separate from the flesh where sin dwells. When we die, our spirit separates from our body.
Stephen was stoned to death and in his last breath said, receive my spirit just has Jesus said to the Father.
"Into your hands, I commit my spirit" Luke 23:46
So I suppose you think when Jesus said this to the Father, you wondered why was he saying that, since they have the same spirit. The Father should have said for our benefit so we would not get confused, "This is my beloved Son, who because he is dying, doesn't know what he is saying, we have the same spirit."
How do you explain that with your theology?
Here's another one to chew on John 16:14-15. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "He", a person, distinct from himself.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Is it possible for a man to teach aspects , truths about the cross , being crucified and yet KNOW NOT HE who was FIRST CRUCIFIEDAmen, it is a mystery, the born again believer is one spirit with Christ and God, through the indescribable gift of His Spirit that lives in us:
1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
upon that CROSS . YES IT IS . EPI IS KING OF THAT .
IF you will examine what is really going on , its nothing more than that religoin to unify all religoins under a common ground
set idea we all follow the same GOD no matter what path we take .
All epi is doing , is under the cloak of the guise that he teaches the cross , is leading folks into the idea
that the mother harlots religoin has been teaching all to unify them as one . A WORKS DO IT YOURSELF IDEA
that will save you . ITS ALL THIS IS .
Can a man teach truths and yet STILL NOT KNOW THE TRUTH . YES , many do .
Even the satanic religoin of islam can teach certain aspects about the truth , like good works and etc .
SO too can the atheist preach about doing good
so can any other false religoin . BUT none of them knoweth GOD or LOVETH GOD and thus they have no true love
for their neighbor . FOR IF A MAN LOVED GOD HE WOULD HAVE LOVED CHRIST .
How can a man love GOD and yet REJECT CHRIST . HE CANT . TO REJECT CHRIST is TO REJECT HE WHO SENT HIM .
TO REJECT the IDEA one must believe is to REJECT THE VERY TEACHING JESUS HIMSELF did teach .
AND IF WE REJECT CHRIST , WE DO REJECT GOD .
Many are fallling for a ruse these days . HOLLERING the muslims do know GOD
they claim to KNOW MOSES , they claim to follow and adhere to the law of MOSES and of the prophets .
WELL the unbelieving jews tried that number on JESUS TOO .
AND JESUS TOLD THEM had you ACTUALLY BELIEVED MOSES YOU WOULD HAVE BELIEVED ME , FOR HE WROTE OF ME .
THIS abrhamic faith stuff IS A SHAM . IF even the jews who cliamed to know moses and torah WERE TOLD THEY DID NOT
because they DID NOT BELIEVE ON HE WHOM THE PROPHETS , THE LAW and MOSES POINTED TOO .
What on earth makes us think GOD gonna give the muslims who cliam the same thing A BREAK and accept them as IS .
HE DIDNT ACCEPT THE JEWS AS IS , HE WONT ACCEPT THE GENTILE AS IS EITHER .
ITS EITHER WE BELIEVE ON JESUS AS THE CHRIST , OR we DECIEVED and decieve ourselves .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Now lets see what an anti christ is and does .
Read a bit father down in the same chapter .
WHO is a liar , BUT HE WHO DENIES that JESUS IS THE CHRIST . HE is ANTI CHRIST .
SO if i come along and teach you all that one does not have to BELIEVE that JESUS IS THE CHRIST
but that all they need to do is simply pick up their cross , or have this so called love
GUESS WHAT I AM and WHO I am OF . ANTI CHRIST . ONLY an anti christ would deliver
a religoin that DENIES JESUS AS THE CHRIST . ONLY an anti christ would do this . Saying we have no NEED
to even BELIEVE HIM as the CHRIST but that other religoins WHO DENY HIM as THE CHRIST
can just pick up their own cross and work out their own salvation . THAT IS ANTI CHRIST RELIGOIN .
NOW , lets see we DONT DO THAT ANYMORE .
One would have to know Greek to know that the word "autos" means either he, or it. Same as in French and other languages.
The bible also says that wisdom is a she. Is wisdom a person? no. But in Hebrew wisdom is feminine in gender. Truth is also feminine. So in Hebrew we would say...The truth SHE is hard to understand. :)
English only speakers have no experience with objects having genders.
In French we say "Il faut chaud" to say ....IT is hot (outside). But literally it is saying "He makes hot"
So then "the Comforter" is masculine...not in a personal way but in a gender based on the word itself.
People used to worship trees. One has to understand that God IS Spirit. As such all His appendages are also such. When the people of God prayed for God to move by His mighty hand...do you think that they were expecting an actual hand? Or a move of the Spirit?
Is a hand a person?? Can we worship a spirit...or IN Spirit and truth? Do we worship truth? Or IN truth?
I think our tendency towards pagan thinking is coming through so often.
Man, too many layers to this onion to sort out. Too many inaccuracies.
Jesus said..."My words are Spirit and they are life" Do you see words as persons? Jesus is the word (singular) but He speaks words (Spirit). Is Jesus creating new persons by using words??? Do we worship them as God? Are the words of Jesus not bringing also the presence of the Spirit (of God)? The Spirit is sent...not as a person but as an extension of God.
Is God's hand a person? Yet we pray for God's healing hand. Do we worship God's hand? Or God Himself...the Person.
We are to worship IN Spirit....not worship a spirit. Many charismatic types have gone off the rails due to a lack of understanding of spiritual things.
Amen. "If ye have not the Son ye have not the Father either." There is only ONE way to the Father...through the Son.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Please address my last post, the scriptures I gave are straight forward ... and then I will address this one.
"Off the rails?" Many on this board would consider you out on a limb, your own branch. The rails are the fundamental truth of the Trinity accepted by at least 97% of 2.65 billion Christians. I'm on those rails. Someone flicked a switch and changed the tracks on the train you are on.
This is not an onion that you have to peal, you can handle it ... or maybe you just rather avoid these scriptures
Explain why Jesus is revealing a distinction between Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit in these verses.
>> John 14:16-17
>> John 14:26
>> John 16:7-8, 14-15
>> Luke 23:46
>> 1 Peter 1:2
>> Matthew 28:19-20
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