Are we truly born wicked?

[Bob]

Psalm 58:3—The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (King James)

Is this an accurate translation? Surely, when we are born we must be amoral, like all mammals, and tabula rasa. Although we too are born self-centered, covetous, and willfully violent, how can we be judged wicked until we have been taught right vs wrong?

We are made in God’s image, so that (unlike other animals) He can communicate to us His commandments: specifically, to love Him and our neighbors. Thus, our parents (and any in charge of our upbringing) must teach us to be caring and sharing, gentle and kind (the rudiments of Love Thy Neighbor).

 

[Phil .]

Amen!

“They go astray as soon as they are born” refers to the belief in having been born. That is the lie spoken.

Not actually having been born, there is no one which is amoral (lacking a moral sense), self-centered (preoccupied with one’s self).

Not having been born, there is no one which is covetous of another (having or showing a great desire to possess something belonging to someone else).

Likewise, no one which does or doesn’t have will, is or isn’t violent, judges or is judged, nor knows there is right & wrong and therein how another should or must be.

Reality is caring and sharing, gentle and kind.

 

[Pearl]

We are not 'born wicked' but we are born as sinners, which is different. Even good people who have not trusted Jesus, accepted him and become born again are still sinners because that is our human nature. As the bible tells us all have sinned by rejecting a life separated from God. Choosing Jesus gives us that connection and reconciles us to Him who created us - our Heavenly Father.

Wickedness is something totally different from being a sinner.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Psalm 58:3—The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (King James)

Is this an accurate translation? Surely, when we are born we must be amoral, like all mammals, and tabula rasa. Although we too are born self-centered, covetous, and willfully violent, how can we be judged wicked until we have been taught right vs wrong?

We are made in God’s image, so that (unlike other animals) He can communicate to us His commandments: specifically, to love Him and our neighbors. Thus, our parents (and any in charge of our upbringing) must teach us to be caring and sharing, gentle and kind (the rudiments of Love Thy Neighbor).

Good questions. My thought is that people are not as Wicked as it commonly stated by those embracing TULIP, which for some people views people as "totally depraved." In my view, people are not born totally depraved and completely resistant to the Gospel. Rather, we were born, as you said, in the image and likeness of God, completely able to respond to God's Word and even able to hear His Word, even if disturbed by our sinful nature.

So that is the other side of this discussion--we are born in Sin. We have a sinful nature that is derived by a kind of spiritual inheritance--a spiritual DNA, if you will. And so, there is this "something" inside us from birth causing us to want to pursue our own interests at the expense of God's interests. We wish to be liberated from the control of God's love over our lives.

Still, we were made to want to be good, like God, and even respond to God's Word that challenges us to be good. But to give up our control entirely to God as our Lord appears to be too much for us in our present sinful state. We can do so, but only by the grace and forbearance of God.

We are capable of the most heinous offences against God and Man if we continue to resist God's Word and His Lordship over our lives. But we certainly don't have to become despicably wicked--not even if we reject a measure of God's control over us. God is very kind towards Man and tolerates a lot in order to bring us into proper conformity with Himself.

 

[Scott Downey]

Total depravity is not what people might think of it, as in a mad evil raging lunatic, horrendously sinful person.

It simply means they have no light in them to know the truth as they are followers of Satan and their minds he has blinded to the gospel.
And because of that they do not seek God to save them, God seeks them. Not seeking God is an evil thing for a person to do as then you will seek other things, you are an idol worshipper.

Total depravity can be a very good morally upright person yet being profane (common ungodliness of the world), they pursue all the things of the world heedless of God's warnings that those who do those things are worthy of death, as Romans 1 says it. They do not retain God in their thinking of how they act.

Romans 1 describes total depravity well enough to understand this.

2 Corinthians 4 teaches us about those who are perishing as does Ephesians 2, Romans 1.

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Psalm 58:3—The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (King James)

Not really referring to babies born wicked,
Wicked adults, they go astray, from their birth. Wickedness takes time to reach full evil fruit in a person life.

God says the same kind of thing here in Genesis 8

God’s Covenant with Creation​

20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination[a] of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

 

[Nancy]

We are not 'born wicked' but we are born as sinners, which is different. Even good people who have not trusted Jesus, accepted him and become born again are still sinners because that is our human nature. As the bible tells us all have sinned by rejecting a life separated from God. Choosing Jesus gives us that connection and reconciles us to Him who created us - our Heavenly Father.

Wickedness is something totally different from being a sinner.

Agreed! Sin dwells in our flesh as Paul say's in Romans 7. His whole conversation is in the present,
Many things he say's are consistent with what a Christian would say. Also, when he speaks of his struggle between the Spirit and the flesh, it would not have been his pre-Christian status as he was proud of what he did (for God, in his pre-born again state).

Our battle IS sin IMHO. Satan tempts us constantly and we use our warfare constantly to be in a state of readiness to use them, on guard every moment, amen.

When born, we are learning from day one IMHO, baby cries, mommy comes, baby cries, mommy comes again...over and over. Same when children get older-they learn to manipulate pretty fast, and pit mom against dad so...I believe we were surely born with a sin nature but not depraved.

 

[Bob]

We are not 'born wicked' but we are born as sinners, which is different. Even good people who have not trusted Jesus, accepted him and become born again are still sinners because that is our human nature. As the bible tells us all have sinned by rejecting a life separated from God. Choosing Jesus gives us that connection and reconciles us to Him who created us - our Heavenly Father.

Wickedness is something totally different from being a sinner.

Thank you for your response. I am still confused, but perhaps it is a matter of semantics.

Can animals sin? If to sin is to disobey God, surely animals cannot sin. (When they fight and steal from each other, they are just acting according to their God-given nature.)

How can a baby sin? It acts according to its God-given nature.

If it steals food off a table, how can it understand that it is disobeying God? How can a baby separated itself from God?

Peace and blessings.

 

[O'Darby]

The psalm isn't saying all are born wicked. It is saying the wicked are wicked from the womb. All humans are not "the wicked." The psalm is simply speaking in hyperbole about the truly wicked. This is obvious from the context of the psalm as a whole. At least in mainstream theology, humans are born with a "propensity to sin" as a result of the fall, which is a far cry from being wicked. This propensity to sin would be true of a newborn baby, hence the doctrine of an "age of accountability" at which point the child possesses sufficient moral sense to be held accountable when the propensity ripens into actual sin.

 

[Pearl]

Thank you for your response. I am still confused, but perhaps it is a matter of semantics.

Can animals sin? If to sin is to disobey God, surely animals cannot sin. (When they fight and steal from each other, they are just acting according to their God-given nature.)

How can a baby sin? It acts according to its God-given nature.

If it steals food off a table, how can it understand that it is disobeying God? How can a baby separated itself from God?

Peace and blessings.

The 'sin' we are born with is nothing to do with wrong doing it is separation from God. And we are all sinners - as the bible tells us - because until we make the choice to accept Jesus we are all still separated from God. Once we have accepted Jesus we are born again into His spiritual family and there is no longer any separation from God. We are fully reconciled with God. but only through Jesus can that happen.

 

[Lambano]

The psalm is simply speaking in hyperbole about the truly wicked.

I think you're close. "Wicked" is also hyperbole, and the psalm (being poetry) is speaking in hyperbole a truth about all of us.

Here's another psalm:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
(Psalm 51:5)

 

[Lambano]

How can a baby sin? It acts according to its God-given nature.

Yes, we do. What we need is a new nature.

 

[St. SteVen]

Bob said:
How can a baby sin? It acts according to its God-given nature.

Yes, we do. What we need is a new nature.

Agree.
Babies learn pretty quickly how to manipulate their parents into getting what they want.
Especially a first born.

Parents treat their second born and onward differently. Why?
Did they learn something with the first born? What?

/

 

[Nancy]

The psalm isn't saying all are born wicked. It is saying the wicked are wicked from the womb. All humans are not "the wicked." The psalm is simply speaking in hyperbole about the truly wicked. This is obvious from the context of the psalm as a whole. At least in mainstream theology, humans are born with a "propensity to sin" as a result of the fall, which is a far cry from being wicked. This propensity to sin would be true of a newborn baby, hence the doctrine of an "age of accountability" at which point the child possesses sufficient moral sense to be held accountable when the propensity ripens into actual sin.

Hi O'Darby, welcome to CB!
It's hard for me to imagine a "Good God" intentionally" knitting together anything wicked. And, I see no scripture to say that either. But I do see this:

Psalm 139:13-14
13 "For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works and I know this very well"

Forgive me if my understanding of your post is in error!

Again, welcome here!

 

[O'Darby]

The 'sin' we are born with is nothing to do with wrong doing it is separation from God. And we are all sinners - as the bible tells us - because until we make the choice to accept Jesus we are all still separated from God. Once we have accepted Jesus we are born again into His spiritual family and there is no longer any separation from God. We are fully reconciled with God. but only through Jesus can that happen

Hi O'Darby, welcome to CB!
It's hard for me to imagine a "Good God" intentionally" knitting together anything wicked. And, I see no scripture to say that either. But I do see this:

Psalm 139:13-14
13 "For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works and I know this very well"

Forgive me if my understanding of your post is in error!

Again, welcome here!

Hi, Nancy, and thanks! I think you are misunderstanding me a bit. I was just saying that in context it seems the Psalmist is addressing someone truly wicked - a Hitler, perhaps - and saying hyperbolically "You're so wicked you were estranged in the womb."

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

We are not 'born wicked' but we are born as sinners, which is different.

Actually if one is born a sinner.. they would be wicked.

Babies are not actually born as sinners since they have no knowledge of wrong and right... so this ends up being something the reformers put in

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Psalm 58:3—The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (King James)

Not really referring to babies born wicked,
Wicked adults, they go astray, from their birth. Wickedness takes time to reach full evil fruit in a person life.

God says the same kind of thing here in Genesis 8

God’s Covenant with Creation​

20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination[a] of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

They are born Lost ! but they have to be born again in Christ Jesus to be Saved !

 

[Davy]

Psalm 58:3—The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (King James)

Is this an accurate translation? Surely, when we are born we must be amoral, like all mammals, and tabula rasa. Although we too are born self-centered, covetous, and willfully violent, how can we be judged wicked until we have been taught right vs wrong?

We are made in God’s image, so that (unlike other animals) He can communicate to us His commandments: specifically, to love Him and our neighbors. Thus, our parents (and any in charge of our upbringing) must teach us to be caring and sharing, gentle and kind (the rudiments of Love Thy Neighbor).

That is talking about the truly 'wicked', the vessels made fitted to wrath which Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 9. They are the "workers of iniquity" mentioned in the Old Testament, and the unawares crept in of Jude 4, and the "brute beasts". So don't go applying that to God's people who 'try' and want to do what is right in God's eyes, even though our flesh does hinder us.

 

[Scott Downey]

They are born Lost ! but they have to be born again in Christ Jesus to be Saved !

I don't believe in infant damnation though. I believe God makes them born again just like God does for us. Being born again is according to His will for us, not our will. So what happens, I think, God reveals to them Christ and they believe it. I think God does that for those who die in infancy. Like David said about his baby infant who died, I will go to him.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

10. Where Do Infants Go When They Die? 2 Samuel 12 (death of a baby) | Bible.org

Background: This was a young child, who suddenly died. There is a passage of Scripture in the Book of II Samuel which offers each of us great comfort in the death of this little one whose death as an infant may seem untimely, Then the Lord struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so...

bible.org

We don't know for sure as little babies we don't get to hear their thoughts.
But we also hear what Jesus said and how He blessed them.

Mark 10:13-15
New King James Version
Jesus Blesses Little Children
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I don't believe in infant damnation though. I believe God makes them born again just like God does for us. Being born again is according to His will for us, not our will. So what happens, I think, God reveals to them Christ and they believe it. I think God does that for those who die in infancy. Like David said about his baby infant who died, I will go to him.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

10. Where Do Infants Go When They Die? 2 Samuel 12 (death of a baby) | Bible.org

Background: This was a young child, who suddenly died. There is a passage of Scripture in the Book of II Samuel which offers each of us great comfort in the death of this little one whose death as an infant may seem untimely, Then the Lord struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so...

bible.org

We don't know for sure as little babies we don't get to hear their thoughts.
But we also hear what Jesus said and how He blessed them.

Mark 10:13-15
New King James Version
Jesus Blesses Little Children
13 Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

We were given freewill ? this is the point ! we need free will to grow ! with out free will that is Socialism, Communism as one has given up on free will ! and become a slave to mans works.

Fact is that We will reap what we sow ! ourselves or collectively as well.

A baby or young child has to grow, we all make mistakes and that how we can learn and then if one has seek in the Lord Jesus, one may become born again. that way we do not follow our selves but stop and take note of what it is that we are doing and abide in Christ Jesus first and foremost in our lives.

As a child i was bound to my parents, so they drew the line and i had to obey them, but once free from their duty ? now who does one abide in ? for your guidance ? sure your Parents for one still in a way but you need more and that was their job to bring you to understand somewhat regarding the Lord for your Salvation ! as this is the number one thing in your life Christ Jesus !
If one messes up ? you do you turn to ! it's Christ Jesus, just as it was with your Parents did !

A worthy Christian Parent loves their children unconditionally but that does not mean spoiling the child at all, what we do is work so as to instill in our Children is the power to use their own steam and then just a touch of guidance, same with Christ Jesus he gives us the steam and guidance and we do this because we love him as we know he is our Lord and Saviour !

If one does not have love, one does not have regards that are worthy of such a foundation.
It's Christ Jesus that gives one the Grace of God.
A back biter does not have Grace ! that's like a mongrel Dog that bites the hand that feeds it. their is plenty of them around !