Are Your Beliefs Absolute Truths?

[amadeus]

Rebellion is never the answer

Rebellion against God is certainly never the answer, but if a man says that he is speaking as an oracle of God should we without reservation simply jump right on his band wagon and rejoice in the Lord for that man?

 

[Helen]

By all means be convicted of your beliefs, ok, but this also means being willing to change your beliefs when you find that you are not convicted of them. And you cannot change beliefs that are defined as Absolute Truths, that would be an oxymoron right?

so yes i am def hoping to instill some doubt here about ppls beliefs in Jesus that are not AT, so that conviction might be found ok

I do agree with this.
Too many people "these days" ...especially on Christian forums ...post as if -
" I and I only have the truth...I only I can see The Light...I only I am right.."

It is a KILLER to any good discussion.

If people would get more mature, and open their eyes to see that there is as Jesus said - "Only One Good..and that is God"
And the rest of us do our very best to have our beliefs and opinions as close to the truth as possible...according to our hearts and conscience before God.

To me...it is the INSECURE and IMMATURE who just can't resist saying....
" I can see the light and I can see the truth , and you are wrong."
It happens all the time...and , to me it is totally pathetic.

When the I has no cross beam... it is not the spirit of God speaking...

Which reminds us of Isaiah 14

13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."


Isn't declaring that 'we' have the absolute truth , the same spirit as the above?
Sure it is.

A little different to the man God said was the meekest man on earth...
Moses ...said " but I cannot speak..."
Jeremiah also was a reluctant spokesman for God ...

...H

 

[bbyrd009]

No, i was saying that for me to claim the authority of the pope (Francis) or my bishop (James) would make me a rebel..

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

so, i could direct you to a Catholic forum, or plenty of Prots here love to debate that stuff too i guess if you want? Or i mean i could direct you to the Quotes that assure you of this authority, lots of things i could do, but i am not interested in "debating" a belief of yours that you hold as an AT, i hope you understand. And ps, talents are money, not natural abilities too. Or at least i would be entertaining the notion

 

[bbyrd009]

it is more about taking authority, i guess; recognizing the profound impact you have on the earth right now.
but like a circumcision, not ordering ppl around

saying i love Jesus is easy; but circumcisions, yikes right

 

[Philip James]

Rebellion against God is certainly never the answer, but if a man says that he is speaking as an oracle of God should we without reservation simply jump right on his band wagon and rejoice in the Lord for that man?

Hello amadeus,
I am not suggesting that one needs to submit to some oracle or prophet who claims to have authority from Christ (although it may be wise to give such a hearing)

I am saying that we are bound to respect and obey those who we know have legitimate authority over us.

Take this board as an example..
Those who own this board, and the moderaters who they have aurhorized,
Have a legitimate right to rule this board as they see fit.
If i wish to participate in this community, i have an obligation to respect and obey their authority and the rules they establish.
So it is with the Church . Jesus gave the apostles HIS authority to rule the communities they established...
The apostles in turn chose and approved bishops to rule after them, and so it has been down through the centuries, even till today.
If I wish to be, or remain a part of these apostolic communities, then i must submit myself to the rule of those who hold legitimate authority in said community.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

it is more about taking authority, i guess; recognizing the profound impact you have on the earth right now.
but like a circumcision, not ordering ppl around

saying i love Jesus is easy; but circumcisions, yikes right

Lol, now on that we agree!

I would also add that, humbling oneself before GOD is easy, humbling oneself before their brothers and sisters can be much more difficult... Something i struggle with often ..

 

[bbyrd009]

The apostles in turn chose and approved bishops to rule after them, and so it has been down through the centuries, even till today.
If I wish to be, or remain a part of these apostolic communities, then i must submit myself to the rule of those who hold legitimate authority in said community.

come out of her, my people


not meaning that is bad, but come out
the heir is under the servants until he inherits

and yes, that comes with authority.
You have the same authority to forgive the pope's sins as he does yours iow

 

[Philip James]

come out of her, my people


not meaning that is bad, but come out
the heir is under the servants until he inherits

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Shall i abandon my brothers and sisters? I dont need to leave to reign with Christ.
Indeed , as I love them, I cannot... To truly reign is to serve...

Peace!

 

[bbyrd009]

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Shall i abandon my brothers and sisters? I dont need to leave to reign with Christ.
Indeed , as I love them, I cannot... To truly reign is to serve...

Peace!

sure, best ground available.

Find those who know the def of "belief" imo

 

[amadeus]

Hello amadeus,
I am not suggesting that one needs to submit to some oracle or prophet who claims to have authority from Christ (although it may be wise to give such a hearing)

I am saying that we are bound to respect and obey those who we know have legitimate authority over us.

Of course we should respect and obey those we KNOW have legitimate authority over us. Then in the things of God people do get into disputes as to who has such authority, if anyone, and who decides if someone has such authority other than God alone. You may know who you respect or to whom you will give your obedience, but some other believers in God will certainly disagree with your decisions if you should decide you to want to tell them who has the authority over them or who they should obey.

Take this board as an example..
Those who own this board, and the moderaters who they have aurhorized,
Have a legitimate right to rule this board as they see fit.
If i wish to participate in this community, i have an obligation to respect and obey their authority and the rules they establish.

I have no real problem with this first part of your declaration. The owners of the forum can within limits do what they like.

So it is with the Church . Jesus gave the apostles HIS authority to rule the communities they established...
The apostles in turn chose and approved bishops to rule after them, and so it has been down through the centuries, even till today.
If I wish to be, or remain a part of these apostolic communities, then i must submit myself to the rule of those who hold legitimate authority in said community.

Peace!

But on this part I cannot so easily agree. You use the word "rule", but who is to rule and what is to be ruled? God gave man the authority to make his own decisions right or wrong. God, I believe, does desire that men should give that authority back to Him. How is it that a person can or should do that? What would be wrong for me to directly turn over the reins to me to God? Did Jesus not make it possible to do it this way rather that requiring any person be obedient to another man?

 

[Philip James]

Amedeus,

I will respond to your questions tomorrow, they are good questions and need a legthier response than i can type out on my phone lol...

So in the meantime, heres a little humour for the AT thread:

Peace!
PJ

P.s. love Mozart!

 

[Philip James]

seems like you run into trouble there, at
truth is determined in the mouth of two or three witnesses

Ah but HE has three witnesses... The Spirit, and the Water and the Blood!

Peace!

 

[Naomi25]

I do agree with this.
Too many people "these days" ...especially on Christian forums ...post as if -
" I and I only have the truth...I only I can see The Light...I only I am right.."

It is a KILLER to any good discussion.

If people would get more mature, and open their eyes to see that there is as Jesus said - "Only One Good..and that is God"
And the rest of us do our very best to have our beliefs and opinions as close to the truth as possible...according to our hearts and conscience before God.

To me...it is the INSECURE and IMMATURE who just can't resist saying....
" I can see the light and I can see the truth , and you are wrong."
It happens all the time...and , to me it is totally pathetic.

When the I has no cross beam... it is not the spirit of God speaking...

Which reminds us of Isaiah 14

13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."


Isn't declaring that 'we' have the absolute truth , the same spirit as the above?
Sure it is.

A little different to the man God said was the meekest man on earth...
Moses ...said " but I cannot speak..."
Jeremiah also was a reluctant spokesman for God ...

...H

While I agree that there are definitely those who can make 'truth claims' that are not warranted or correct, I felt uncomfortable when you said that declaring "absolute truth" about things is in the same spirit. On this board I have found you to be a wise influence, one clearly who loves the truth of God. So I'm hoping that in this case you are speaking only to those who misuse the category of "truth". And while there are those out there who unquestionably do, for the rest of us, there needs to be a careful, prayerful line, that as Christians we can take a stand on. We need to be able to say "this IS true".

This Board's Rules State:

We believe that Christian issues are able to be separated into two descriptions: *open-handed issues* and *close-handed issues*. Close-handed issues (or closed issues) are issues that are central to being a Christian; these issues are simply not up for debate because they are what defines Christianity. If closed-handed issues are debatable, then Christianity is simply yet another religion and nothing more. We will define those below in regards to the community, but this includes doctrines like the divinity of Christ. Open-handed issues (also called open issues) are issues that concern topics that are not essential to salvation. In other words, belief in a certain eschatological view (end times view) does not determine if one is saved, so that would be defined as an open-handed issue. However, Jesus being the Son of God is absolutely essential to salvation, so that is a close-handed issue.

The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

I think they hit the nail on the head. Without certainty on essential doctrines, we can have no hope that what we base our faith in is truth. It's all just wishful thinking. As soon as we allow the breakdown of truth to enter the arena of the essential faiths, that which we base our knowledge upon...the bible...becomes questionable. The bible itself claims to hold truth. Truth from God. If this is not true, then how can we be certain the rest of it is speaking the truth? Our whole faith comes tumbling down like a house of cards.
It's all well and good for people to say (incorrectly I think) "well, the bible is only secondary anyway, we have the Spirit to teach us". But the Spirit testifies to the Word, and vise versa. People who want to undermine the truth in scripture, while they may deny it, are actually taking swings at our Cornerstone.



then shall I have an answer for him who taunts me,
for I trust in your word.
And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth,
for my hope is in your rules. - Psalm 199:42-43

The sum of your word is truth,
and every one of your righteous rules endures forever. - Psalm 199:160

I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I the Lord speak the truth;
I declare what is right. - Isaiah 45:19

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1:14

Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. - John 8:14

I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” - John 8:26

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” - John 8:31-32

but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. - John 8:40

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. - John 17:17

Truth is an important topic, and despite how people misuse it and claim to own it when they don't, we still cannot be cavalier about it, or dismiss that it is there. People trying to do so are wolves among the sheep.

Also...sorry for the dump of scripture! Just felt it was needed!

 

[APAK]

Hello amadeus,
I am not suggesting that one needs to submit to some oracle or prophet who claims to have authority from Christ (although it may be wise to give such a hearing)

I am saying that we are bound to respect and obey those who we know have legitimate authority over us.

Take this board as an example..
Those who own this board, and the moderaters who they have aurhorized,
Have a legitimate right to rule this board as they see fit.
If i wish to participate in this community, i have an obligation to respect and obey their authority and the rules they establish.
So it is with the Church . Jesus gave the apostles HIS authority to rule the communities they established...
The apostles in turn chose and approved bishops to rule after them, and so it has been down through the centuries, even till today.
If I wish to be, or remain a part of these apostolic communities, then i must submit myself to the rule of those who hold legitimate authority in said community.

Peace!

PJ:

Well hello: Let me introduce myself through my beliefs by riding along on the subject of legitimate authority you have just entertained.

Legitimate authority of what kind and for what purpose(s)?

The non-voting Board like on this site can do what they desire at the expense of any member here and their view or opinion. It is essentially a benevolent dictatorship. If they do not agree with my essential beliefs, then I would consider them still legitimate and the authority as they run the site although I would consider myself a non-compliant member because of their differing views. I would continue to participate and voice my sometimes differing or dissenting beliefs until the Board decides to ‘cut’ my opinion. I am not under any obligation to respect their differing set of beliefs whatsoever.

They do not have any legitimate authority over me except my behavior on this site. A common and understood set of norms established by society a long time ago, for public behavior. My beliefs are my own and never theirs. They can match them 100% all the time or only 50% some of the time. It does not matter.

I very much disagree with your statement that Jesus gave the apostles authority to rule communities that were established (either directly or by their influence). Incidentally, they did not directly establish most of them; depending on what you consider an apostle, your time line and location.

I believe you have overreached a bit here. The word ‘rule’ is an extreme word. Jesus gave the apostles authority via God, to spread the gospel and convert people in Jesus’ name. I would say that is a far cry from ruling any true believer in Christ. This is not scriptural thought. It is a worldly RCC thought.

Yes, there were early locations as especially Paul and John wrote where a voluntary hierarchy of ‘physical’ membership of believers was established for growth and early survival purposes. These were loosely knitted congregations that still carried the truth. Of course, this environment would later be abused and destroys along with essential oral and written truths of God, by the secular pagan wolves and teachers that came in and established and forced religious dictatorships and rulers, and a political power structure denoted by your so-called “CHURCH” and the ruling elite that eventually became the official RCC centuries later.

Universalism of the truth by the early true congregation of believers in Christ was supplanted by the Universalism of physical religious power by the RCCs. They supplanted God’s Universal truths with their own flavor as we see today. And most Protestants still follow a lot of their doctrine, dogma and teachings. There are very few true believers, yesterday and today because of this treacherous and evil history of the RCC and later to include the Protestant compromisers.

The communities you call apostolic yesterday or today are secular and political in nature and were never ordained by God or his son. They are the communities established by the rulers of this world. And I am not a member and clearly not compliant with or to them.

Ultimately, my ruler is God Almighty alone. He has given me his spirit, of the likeness of Christ within my heart. He rules my heart and actions. Depending and counting one's life on a worldly historical counterfeit religious power elite is not for me. I have one mediator between God and myself and it is not any man-made religion.

It is Jesus Christ alone! I am becoming more like him as time progresses, and not like a good and well- behaved religionist, as I assume you are today.

My advocate is alive and is life, yours I believe is dead and is death. I chose the former for my life and salvation.


Bless you,


APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Did Jesus not make it possible to do it this way rather that requiring any person be obedient to another man?

I will respond to your questions tomorrow, they are good questions and need a legthier response than i can type out on my phone

not sure why "yes" is not sufficient there

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah but HE has three witnesses... The Spirit, and the Water and the Blood!

Peace!

so we have basically another circular justification mechanism that depends upon the definition of those, that allows you to define AT how you like, and discount any other information that does not fit your AT. So now by definition God cannot possibly send anyone with this perspective any strong delusion right?

i mean didn't you really just find a cute way to avoid the question? again?

Shall i abandon my brothers and sisters?

same thing here; i never said abandon anyone, see, i just repeated come out of her my people

i do like the Holy Hand Grenade tho lol, a fave.
in that vein i'll leave you the last word on these, as i have no personal objection to someone defining beliefs as AT if they like ok, i've done it pretty much my whole life

 

[bbyrd009]

As soon as we allow the breakdown of truth to enter the arena of the essential faiths, that which we base our knowledge upon...the bible...becomes questionable.

you say the Bible can be called into question, but that is only bc your interpretation is AT to you.
i would question the interpretation, not the Bible

We need to be able to say "this IS true".

imo you need to stop imagining that you can say any such thing, and run like the wind from anyone who gave you that idea.
What we really need is to be comfortable saying "we don't know."

Either that or state your unequivocal "this is true" and then test it and see if you are convicted or not
and let the truth take care of itself.

You need to be able to say "this is true" for a very good reason, see; and i would hope to lead you to conviction instead

Truth is an important topic, and despite how people misuse it and claim to own it when they don't, we still cannot be cavalier about it, or dismiss that it is there. People trying to do so are wolves among the sheep.

he who says he knows anything does not yet know it as he ought

so fwiw i am not dismissing any truth, i am merely telling you that you do not have to believe like i do bc my beliefs are not AT.
but i have to believe like you do bc your beliefs are AT, right
yet i am the wolf here

 

[bbyrd009]

You need to be able to say "this is true" for a very good reason, see; and i would hope to lead you to conviction instead

"this is true right now, but something else could be more true later"

...Dialectical reasoning is actually opposed to formal logic in many ways.

Western Logic Versus Eastern Dialecticism
Aristotle placed at the foundations of logical thought the following three propositions.
1. Identity: A = A. Whatever is, is. A is itself and not some other thing.
2. Noncontradiction: A and not A can't both be the case. Nothing can both be and not be. A proposition and its opposite can't both be true.
3. Excluded middle: Everything must either be or not be. A or not A can be true but not something in between.

Modern Westerners accept these propositions (but Easterners do not)...
...three principles underlie Eastern dialecticism. Notice I didn't say "propositions..." the term "proposition" has much too formal a ring for what is a generalized stance toward the world rather than a set of ironclad rules.

1. Principle of change:
Reality is a process of change.
What is currently true will shortly be false.
2. Principle of contradiction:
Contradiction is the dynamic underlying change.
Because change is constant, contradiction is constant.
3. Principle of relationships (or holism):
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Parts are meaningful only in relation to the whole...

 

[Philip James]

But on this part I cannot so easily agree. You use the word "rule", but who is to rule and what is to be ruled?

Jesus said to those with valid authority (the priests and the pharisees) : Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.

the answer to what is to be ruled, is thus, the vineyard, the kingdom of God, here on earth. who is to rule it? Those to whom the King gives it...

Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

The apostles... those to whom he gives the power to bind and loose...
In their epistles we see them excercising this authority, establishing rules on faith,morals,conduct, the sacraments..

Paul says 'Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.'
Peter says
'So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed
Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.'
John says 'We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.'

In the letters to Timothy and Titus we see Paul's instruction to bishops that he has ordained

Command and teach these things.

Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.
Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.

Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

we find also in these letters that part of their duties as bishops is to ordain others as presbyters and a warning to be careful who they ordain:
Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure.

It is clear through these passages (and many others) that Jesus handed over the care and shepharding of His flock to the apostles and that the apostles chose and ordained men to continue that office after them. Of course it is the ONE shephard, Jesus Christ, who shephards us through them.

As for those of us who are not called out to be presbyters and bishops, what are the instructions to us?

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.


and demonstrated here:
For if I have boasted to him about you, I was not put to shame. No, just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting before Titus proved to be the truth.

And his heart goes out to you all the more, as he remembers the obedience of all of you, when you received him with fear and trembling.

so then we have Timothy and Titus as examples of those whom Paul ordained...
I would suggest also reading the letters of Clement, Polycarp and Ignatius as well, who were ordained bishops in Rome, Smyrna, and Antioch... where you will see the same conditions set out for the shephards and the flock.

God gave man the authority to make his own decisions right or wrong. God, I believe, does desire that men should give that authority back to Him. How is it that a person can or should do that?

The same way they have always done from the time of Adam, even down to today... by submitting our will to HIS will, not just once but daily, minute by minute... for without HIM all our actions are useless. Ecclesiastes is a great book to read to understand the vanity of all human endeavors apart from God..

What would be wrong for me to directly turn over the reins to me to God?

Nothing at all, in fact this is what we must ALL do if we wish to walk with HIM. But God calls us not just as individuals, but as a community, a people... 'they will be My people and I will be their God'

and can the hand say to the foot 'I don't need you?'

We are called not to just worship Him alone, but together in the assembly of the faithful...
We should not stay away from our assembly, as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Did Jesus not make it possible to do it this way rather that requiring any person be obedient to another man?

I guess that depends on whether HIS will includes being obedient to other men doesn't it? I think both scripture and the teaching of the Church make it clear that it is HIS will that we are. To teach us humility perhaps?

For we are called not just to love God, but also one another... and what is love if not to serve one another with all our hearts?

It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So then, if God has anointed leaders over us, whether in the Church or in the world, can we then say we dont need to be obedient? Was David obedient to Saul, even though he knew he was anointed to replace him? what did David do to the man that killed Saul and why?
What is the rebellion of Korah that Jude warns us of?

If our leaders abuse their authority, they will answer to God for it, likewise we will have to answer for our obedience (or lack thereof).

Consider the almost impossible responsibility the bishops have... they will be called to account for every sheep lost under their watch, and especially if their own words and actions caused 'one of these to stumble'. Should we not then aid them with our prayers, our love, our obedience... making their task easier and our joy complete? 'for when any part of the body duffers we all suffer'

We are all of us, who lay our wills down at Jesus' feet to build up the peace and unity of the Body.. Growing together, into the perfection of our Head, Jesus Christ, bearing with one another in love, forgiving one another.... One Baptism, One Faith, One Lord...

May the peace that surpasses all understanding fill you!

PJ

 

[Philip James]

Universalism of the truth by the early true congregation of believers in Christ was supplanted by the Universalism of physical religious power by the RCCs.

APAK,

You have self professed here as a heretic. Yours is the kind of 'teaching' that the apostles and bishops and councils condemned...

That the RCC supplanted the early Church is clearly bogus as the apostolic churches in Alexandria and Constantinople teach essentially the same things..
No community that has any ties to the apostles teaches your drivel. You can take your so-called knowledge and trade it for an American dollar... it's worth nothing more.

Your kind of heresy has been and always will be repudiated by the Church. I will have nothing to do with you unless you humble yourself, repent and come on your knees to Christ's Church and should I see you attempting to cause any of HIS little ones here to stray, I will oppose you at every turn and expose your lies...

Here's a little something from Ignatius of Antioch for you as a parting gift

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.