Are Your Beliefs Absolute Truths?

[Helen]

God gave man the authority to make his own decisions right or wrong. God, I believe, does desire that men should give that authority back to Him. How is it that a person can or should do that? What would be wrong for me to directly turn over the reins to me to God? Did Jesus not make it possible to do it this way rather that requiring any person be obedient to another man?

Excellent and wise ( as usual )

I agree.
If God gave us man to rule over us and have the final word. Then WHY did He send the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us??

This is what I am seeing wrong with the churches ...a man has usurped the position of God's leadership via the Holy Spirit.

At the foot of the mountain God would have come down to speak with Israel.
Yet we see them saying- " Moses, YOU go up.."
They were afraid of a relationship where they hear from God for themselves.
They wanted Moses to go and get the Word, and come and feed it to them.

Hence their attitude to God was.." Give me religion, I don't want a relationship or the experience of having to receive a word in my own ear. "

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD."
That could be a word for TODAY...God, through the Holy Spirit has been sidelined.

....H

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009
A good and interesting thread that you have going here.

 

[Naomi25]

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[APAK]

APAK,

You have self professed here as a heretic. Yours is the kind of 'teaching' that the apostles and bishops and councils condemned...

That the RCC supplanted the early Church is clearly bogus as the apostolic churches in Alexandria and Constantinople teach essentially the same things..
No community that has any ties to the apostles teaches your drivel. You can take your so-called knowledge and trade it for an American dollar... it's worth nothing more.

Your kind of heresy has been and always will be repudiated by the Church. I will have nothing to do with you unless you humble yourself, repent and come on your knees to Christ's Church and should I see you attempting to cause any of HIS little ones here to stray, I will oppose you at every turn and expose your lies...

Here's a little something from Ignatius of Antioch for you as a parting gift

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

PJ:
Offended are we. To be expected when confronted head-on with the truth and not the traditions of men. Well spoken, like a true heretic of your arrogant forefathers. One day Christ in glory will erase all false religions and I hope that time will happen very soon.

Good luck with your impersonal collective “(the) Church” your impersonal collective “(the) faith” and your impersonal legally and politically bound arms-length view of Christ and his saving grace. I pray you do get to know Jesus personally one day and reflect on what I have said to you. There’s hope from bondage for everyone.


Bless you,


APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

Conviction is a funny thing. The Lord Jesus has given me the knowledge and conviction that no food is unacceptable
in and of itself. But it is unacceptable to a person who thinks it is.

 

[APAK]

Conviction is a funny thing. The Lord Jesus has given me the knowledge and conviction that no food is unacceptable
in and of itself. But it is unacceptable to a person who thinks it is.

bbyrd009..this subject must not be taken lightly as you for some reason must sweep it away with a very inappropriate analogy (food) made of it (conviction). You may think as you wish of course. I am convicted by the spirit within me...or don't you understand this spiritual gift within you?

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

bbyrd009..this subject must not be taken lightly as you for some reason must sweep it away with a very inappropriate analogy (food) made of it (conviction). You may think as you wish of course. I am convicted by the spirit within me...or don't you understand this spiritual gift within you?

APAK

i'm not quite sure what your objection is here tbh, you would have to rephrase it.
Why do you think the analogy is inappropriate?

i agree the subject should not be taken lightly, but really our convictions are between us and God (same chapter)
although i did earlier go so far as to use a personal example of conviction/lack of conviction, as we can see that is just usually taken as offense, and i guess it is better to soften ppl rather than harden them, i did not want to be hardening anyone

 

[bbyrd009]

there is no judgement for beliefs, but there is one for conviction; so a point there was to see that your own conviction can be tested, and also hopefully to see that conviction has little to do with truth--which is a word i try to never use myself, God pls save me from ever believing that i could tell someone any "truth!" (and yes, i am aware of the v)

a fab illustration of 3 ppl who all lack conviction

 

[APAK]

now that a first, you lost me.....you have thrown in too many variables into your writing.....it's ok. I will stay with my convictions as the spirit of the truth convicts and always be cautious of speaking words 'that I think are truth' and are at best my view only..although also can be the truth...if that makes any sense...

 

[bbyrd009]

now that a first, you lost me.....you have thrown in too many variables into your writing.....it's ok. I will stay with my convictions as the spirit of the truth convicts and always be cautious of speaking words 'that I think are truth' and are at best my view only..although also can be the truth...if that makes any sense...

an excellent image of conviction imo

 

[amadeus]

Jesus said to those with valid authority (the priests and the pharisees) : Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.
the answer to what is to be ruled, is thus, the vineyard, the kingdom of God, here on earth. who is to rule it? Those to whom the King gives it...
Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus has been given power, but not to do what even the Father will not do... that is, force a man to obey Him. God gave that authority to each one of us. It remains ours until we surrender it to Him. It is our choice to surrender it to Him or not. Who is there to rule when no one had surrendered and/or submitted themselves?

Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

The apostles... those to whom he gives the power to bind and loose...
In their epistles we see them excercising this authority, establishing rules on faith,morals,conduct, the sacraments..

Why does anyone need men to establish rules? In the OT the laws God gave to Moses for the natural Israelites were given but as Peter said, they were unable to keep them then and why should it be different now?

"Now therefore why do you tempt God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples, a yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

The difference now is in the Holy Ghost in us. We in our flesh by ourselves still cannot obey God as He would like us to obey Him, but by the power of the Holy Ghost in us, what is impossible for us?

"And Jesus looking on them said, With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Certainly God does and will continue to use us to edify one another:
"And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit." Eph 4:11-14

If we are led by and taught by and empowered by the Holy Ghost in us what men will be needed? In our infancy and in our childhood, God may work through those gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. Their function you understand by the verses cited it help us move beyond the need for their help... not to rule us. Once we are properly connected to and obedient to our Head [Jesus] by means of the Holy Ghost where then would they still be needed by us?

 

[amadeus]

@Philip James

Paul says 'Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.'

Peter says

'So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed

Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.'

John says 'We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.'

We most certainly may need to listen to anyone who speaks what God says through them, but we still have to listen to and obey the God in us as we are directly along out own course in Him. Paul heard the true prophets warn him against the pain and suffering he would encounter if he proceeded to Jerusalem, but while he listened, he went on as the Spirit directed him [see Acts 21:9-14].

In the letters to Timothy and Titus we see Paul's instruction to bishops that he has ordained

Command and teach these things.

Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

The means to command, teach, exhort and correct according to God comes from Him alone. That is one of the "whys" of the Holy Ghost in us. Then again, even if a person has God working in him through the Holy Ghost, he must recognize His voice and obey it and no other. Quenching the Holy Spirit in us remains the primary problem for believers.

we find also in these letters that part of their duties as bishops is to ordain others as presbyters and a warning to be careful who they ordain:

Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure.

Does this speak only of formally ordaining someone into the formal ministry or does it not also speak of not being too quick to mess into another man's affairs uninvited by him or by God?

It is clear through these passages (and many others) that Jesus handed over the care and shepharding of His flock to the apostles and that the apostles chose and ordained men to continue that office after them. Of course it is the ONE shephard, Jesus Christ, who shephards us through them.

I have known many who held themselves out as pastors over the years who either were not called by God at all to that ministry or, being called, were lazy, careless and selfish in the supposed pursuit of their calling. For this each of us must recall the words of the Apostle Paul:


"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1


This puts it back on us, doesn't it?


"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

We can follow a man or a church group, but if we follow leaders who are heading into a ditch how blameless are we?

As for those of us who are not called out to be presbyters and bishops, what are the instructions to us?

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Even so, obey the ones to whom we have correctly submitted ourselves until we have moved away from being fed milk from a bottle onto eating the meat ourselves; Or, until we have found the need to turn aside so as to avoid the ditch which they perhaps cannot even see. They are to teach, prophesy and evangelize rightly but when they do not for whatever reason, should we continue to follow without even a question? Is that not the time to come out of the confusion [Babylon] which is not of God?


"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4

The same way they have always done from the time of Adam, even down to today... by submitting our will to HIS will, not just once but daily, minute by minute... for without HIM all our actions are useless. Ecclesiastes is a great book to read to understand the vanity of all human endeavors apart from God.

I agree that Ecclesiastes is a good place to see the ways of men, men who have not followed and are not following the Way of God. With the help of the Holy Ghost we can read that book and see the filth of ourselves so we can understand better the work of God that is needed within each of us.

Nothing at all, in fact this is what we must ALL do if we wish to walk with HIM. But God calls us not just as individuals, but as a community, a people... 'they will be My people and I will be their God'

and can the hand say to the foot 'I don't need you?'

For the community, the people, to fit together rightly, they must be born again and then edified by God. God does work through people... called ministers included... to edify each other. This can be done in and through organized church groups, but as I have already said, to follow blindly because we believe someone is called, can lead us right into a ditch, which could be a bottomless pit. To fit together rightly to be a part of the unflawed Body of Christ, each part must be submitted to God first so that we can be molded correctly without the hands of men.


If we are obedient to these words: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;" …. will not these words then be applied to us...? "...and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

We are called not to just worship Him alone, but together in the assembly of the faithful...

We should not stay away from our assembly, as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

I agree that we should be assembling together in His name. The problem for some or even many is that they gather, but not in His name. Where or what is His Name? So many do not even recognize why I would ask such a question. If we are not "in His name" then where is He?

 

[Philip James]

Why does anyone need men to establish rules

If we are led by and taught by and empowered by the Holy Ghost in us what men will be needed?

Once we are properly connected to and obedient to our Head [Jesus] by means of the Holy Ghost where then would they still be needed by us?

Again, can the foot say to the hand 'i dont need you'?

And if we think we are led by the Holy Spirit, shall we ignore what the Holy Spirit has taught our brothers and sisters who have gone before us?
Does the Holy Spirit lead one man into some truth and another into a contradictory one?
No, the Holy Spirit leads us together, that is, in one Body, into all truth..

Here is the rebellion if Korah that I mentioned:

and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD'S congregation?"

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

I have known many who held themselves out as pastors over the years who either were not called by God at all to that ministry or, being called, were lazy, careless and selfish in the supposed pursuit of their calling

All the more reason for the Church to train and test those men who feel called to serve Christ and His church in this role...

 

[bbyrd009]

or at least expose their lack of conviction, yes
not sure how one might go about the first one though
come out of her, my people
suggests that that is a fool's errand to me

 

[Philip James]

or at least expose their lack of conviction, yes
not sure how one might go about the first one though

Indeed , discerment of ones calling is necessary... As any seminary would agree

 

[amadeus]

Again, can the foot say to the hand 'i dont need you'?

I don't say that. The Body is established by the Head according to those who have been called and have responded to that call to be a part. The Body's Head is Jesus. The connection to the Head is the Holy Spirit. We will work together with other parts of the Body as the Head directs through the Holy Spirit.

And if we think we are led by the Holy Spirit, shall we ignore what the Holy Spirit has taught our brothers and sisters who have gone before us?

And how would we know what the Holy Spirit taught another man unless God or someone led by God told us?

Does the Holy Spirit lead one man into some truth and another into a contradictory one?
No, the Holy Spirit leads us together, that is, in one Body, into all truth..

I agree!

The differences that do occur or seem to occur are due to one of both parties who have the Holy Spirit in them quenching at times the lead of the Holy Spirit in favor of that of some other leader.

Here is the rebellion if Korah that I mentioned:

and held an assembly against Moses and Aaron, to whom they said, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD'S congregation?"

Peace!

Yes, Korah and those who followed him were in error, but there are times when both sides are in error.

Consider the two kings of Israel when the kingdom which had followed David and Solomon became two. The division came as a result of Solomon's errors. But, God divided them:

"And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:" I Kings 11:31


Both of the new kingdoms could have still followed the Lord. Each one was given what he had from God. But each king was more concerned with his own position and power than he was with what God wanted from them and for them. This is the way it has been, and is, between those on the Catholic side and those on the Protestant side. The question is not whether Catholicism or Protestantism [any sect of the latter] is correct, but rather: Who is on the Lord's side? The correct answer to the question is known by God for each person, be that person, Catholic, or Protestant, or other.

The "her" that each of us is come out of [Rev 18:4] is not simply Catholicism, or Judaism or any other "ism", but out of Babylon, which is the place of confusion:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

 

[amadeus]

All the more reason for the Church to train and test those men who feel called to serve Christ and His church in this role...

The presumption on your part is in what the Church is. You apparently believe it, but that does not leave those who do not with no recourse. If it really were the Church rather than just another one of the churches, then you might be correct, but then that would be saying that all of the Protestants were in error who followed Luther's lead and all the Catholics were correct who did not follow his lead.

I don't believe that and I doubt that most Catholics believe that.

As with the northern 10 tribes of Israel and the 2 southern tribes under the banner of Judah, there was and is error on both sides. Any one working on the Lord's side, without regarding in which camp they set up their tent, will be moving toward God and therefore toward one another even if they are unable to see it at the moment. God can see it and we need to be moving toward such a vision as well:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Solomon wrote of the importance of vision long before Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:... " Prov 29:18

The vision comes from, I believe, the Holy Ghost being allowed to work within us.

 

[Philip James]

And how would we know what the Holy Spirit taught another man unless God or someone led by God told us?

This is a profound question! And at the heart of what we are discussing here...
we have the example of Saul, whom God tells directly 'why are you persecuting me?' , and where does HE send him? to the Church in Antioch to be baptised, where the scales fall from his eyes..
and we have the example of the apostles (someone led by God) sharing what Christ and the Spirit have taught them, and we have them choosing, training and approving (ordaining) men to take their place to continue to preserve and pass on the deposit of faith
and we have the Councils, of which the first in Jerusalem is the protptype.. so that in ending a division or strife within the Church it can prononce: 'It seems good to us and the Holy Spirit'... giving instruction binding on the whole Church.

The differences that do occur or seem to occur are due to one of both parties who have the Holy Spirit in them quenching at times the lead of the Holy Spirit in favor of that of some other leader.

Yes, Korah and those who followed him were in error, but there are times when both sides are in error.

On this we agree... almost always, strife between members of the body is brought about by sins on both sides.. but how does this rebellion of Korah apply in the Church? Jude warned us against those who fall into it..

Consider the two kings of Israel when the kingdom which had followed David and Solomon became two. The division came as a result of Solomon's errors. But, God divided them:

"And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:" I Kings 11:31


Both of the new kingdoms could have still followed the Lord. Each one was given what he had from God. But each king was more concerned with his own position and power than he was with what God wanted from them and for them.

This again is a very good point. i would argue however that it prefigures the split between the eastern (orthodox) churches and the western (latin) churches... The difference being that the apostolic churches DID follow the Lord, in fact competed with one another to see who would more faithfully preserve the deposit of faith that was given to them...

Happily though this division has been repaired (the two sticks made one) as Bartholomew I and Benedict XVI concelebrated the divine mysteries together some time ago... and this union continues to repair the damage between us...

This is the way it has been, and is, between those on the Catholic side and those on the Protestant side. The question is not whether Catholicism or Protestantism [any sect of the latter] is correct, but rather: Who is on the Lord's side? The correct answer to the question is known by God for each person, be that person, Catholic, or Protestant, or other.

On this we also agree. For every individual, being on the Lord's side, that is, making HIM our Lord and Master, turning our will over to HIS will is of paramount importance...

The "her" that each of us is come out of [Rev 18:4] is not simply Catholicism, or Judaism or any other "ism", but out of Babylon, which is the place of confusion:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

again we agree, Babylon is the place of confusion. And the Spirit ALWAYS calls us out of confusion and into unity of mind and faith.

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

The presumption on your part is in what the Church is. You apparently believe it, but that does not leave those who do not with no recourse. If it really were the Church rather than just another one of the churches, then you might be correct, but then that would be saying that all of the Protestants were in error who followed Luther's lead and all the Catholics were correct who did not follow his lead.

No presumption, what the Church is, is clearly spelled out in scripture... but this reminds me of an old orthodox saying (im sorry I forget by who) ' One can say with certainty where the Church IS, but not, where it is not'

As with the northern 10 tribes of Israel and the 2 southern tribes under the banner of Judah, there was and is error on both sides. Any one working on the Lord's side, without regarding in which camp they set up their tent, will be moving toward God and therefore toward one another even if they are unable to see it at the moment. God can see it and we need to be moving toward such a vision as well:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Solomon wrote of the importance of vision long before Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish:... " Prov 29:18

The vision comes from, I believe, the Holy Ghost being allowed to work within us.

And on this we also agree!

may the Lord, the God of Hosts, strengthen our love for one another and bring us to the unity that the Holy Spirit calls us too!

Peace and Love!
PJ