Aspen and Tigger 2 discuss 'who is God?'

[Dcopymope]

an anyone here tell me why it really matters?
If a person follows the words of Jesus, loves God and loves his brother/neighbour ...why would it matter if he didn't have the revelation that Jesus was God ?

This is not a tongue in cheek question, but a serious one. Anyone?

As you all know by now, I believe God will check out our heart at the End, not our doctrine.
Hope everyone here in this thread answers this Q. Thanks.

The answer to your question stems from the understanding of what it means to be saved. Its simple, without Jesus, you are doomed to face the throne judgement, or the condemnation, at which point you will be standing before God next to the common atheist or pagan being judged for your works, in danger of getting thrown into the lake of fire. His bride will never see their day in court, because they have accepted his sacrifice as the ransom for their souls, as their get out of jail free card.

 

[Stranger]

an anyone here tell me why it really matters?
If a person follows the words of Jesus, loves God and loves his brother/neighbour ...why would it matter if he didn't have the revelation that Jesus was God ?

This is not a tongue in cheek question, but a serious one. Anyone?

As you all know by now, I believe God will check out our heart at the End, not our doctrine.
Hope everyone here in this thread answers this Q. Thanks.

When one comes to Christ as his Saviour, it is not necessary that he know everything about Christ and God. He only needs to believe that gospel that is given him which involves God giving His only Son etc. etc. And if for some reason this saved one never has access to a Bible or any teaching on the Bible, then he can go along with what he knows which is, for example, (John 3:16). And he is perfectly acceptable by God.

But the usual course is when once we are saved we have a Bible and begin our study of the Bible to learn more of God and Christ, more of our own salvation and God's work in it. Seems so innocent in the beginning. A newly born child of God with a Bible trying to learn as much as he can about His Father and Saviour. But in reality, that child of God has just laid his hands on the most dangerous work in the universe. He immediately has the attention of the enemy, satan, and his angels. Why? Because he is learning that which is the very power of God, the Word of God, which is used to destroy satans kingdom. And, not only does this believer catch satans eye because of his studying the Bible, but also the eye of God. And as he learns more, he becomes more responsible to God for what he has learned.

satan will always say, 'yea hath God said'. The believer will say, 'it is written'. But it is important in this conflict to know what is written. If one does not yet have the revelation that Jesus is God in the flesh, that is no problem. But when one is teaching that the Bible does not say Jesus is God in the flesh, then that is a problem. So those who have studied the Bible and know that Jesus is both God and Man, are responsible to contend with such a false statement.

Of course God knows our heart, now and at the end. He has it already. Our doctrine becomes part of the battlefield in our conflict here and now.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

wow, Stranger, nice

an anyone here tell me why it really matters?
If a person follows the words of Jesus, loves God and loves his brother/neighbour ...why would it matter if he didn't have the revelation that Jesus was God ?

This is not a tongue in cheek question, but a serious one. Anyone?

As you all know by now, I believe God will check out our heart at the End, not our doctrine.
Hope everyone here in this thread answers this Q. Thanks.

"don't be deceived, little children..."

 

[bbyrd009]

The answer to your question stems from the understanding of what it means to be saved.

if only, huh? that clearly requires actions, which is why the answer is more about identifying the saved than being them i guess. See you're automatically lost now if you don't agree that Jesus is God, i guess

 

[Helen]

Well, one could say that not knowing that Jesus is God would condemn all of Israel. Or one might say that if we know Christ, then surely we would know. But the real question is, does God reveal all...to all...before the end?

Thanks Scott..yes good questions.
I would have to say there are those that I know who are 'in Christ' and Spirit filled, yet the do not believe in the trinity doctrine or that Jesus is God.

As you say...Does God reveal everything to all people. The answer looks like..a "no". Otherwise it is a refusal to believe.
If we tag on to the Gospel ..".. also ,along with being born anew in Christ, a person must also believe this, that, and the other as well to be saved!!!

That is what the Pharisees did eh?

 

[Helen]

Its simple, without Jesus, you are doomed to face the throne judgement, or the condemnation,

Agree, that is why I asked .."Does it matter if genuine believers do not hold the same doctrine as each other.."as in some not believing that Jesus is God, some do not believe in the trinity...
Yet listening to some people...it sound like they think that people who hold a different opinion of scripture which is not traditional main-line...will be on the slippery slope to hell!!

 

[Dcopymope]

Agree, that is why I asked .."Does it matter if genuine believers do not hold the same doctrine as each other.."as in some not believing that Jesus is God, some do not believe in the trinity...
Yet listening to some people...it sound like they think that people who hold a different opinion of scripture which is not traditional main-line...will be on the slippery slope to hell!!

As long as they confess that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the word made flesh who died for their sins, who created heaven and earth, then the differences beyond that shouldn't really matter much. The only ones on a slippery slope to hell are the wicked.

 

[Helen]

<snip>
satan will always say, 'yea hath God said'. The believer will say, 'it is written'. But it is important in this conflict to know what is written. If one does not yet have the revelation that Jesus is God in the flesh, that is no problem. But when one is teaching that the Bible does not say Jesus is God in the flesh, then that is a problem. So those who have studied the Bible and know that Jesus is both God and Man, are responsible to contend with such a false statement.

Of course God knows our heart, now and at the end. He has it already. Our doctrine becomes part of the battlefield in our conflict here and now.

Stranger

Thank you, good post.
So you do agree that if a person is a believer, but does not yet "see" that Jesus is indeed God he is not heading to hell in a hand-basket? Not even if a seasoned Christian.

I was convinced the first time I ever read Isaiah 9:6 " ..and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
But I know others are not so convinced ( how I don't know )
But I do not see this as a 'heaven or hell' issue. I see it as others putting weights around the neck of others and adding to the what Paul lays out of basic salvation. Obviously they can and do believe that Jesus as The Door, The Only Way, The Life..our Saviour etc..but not necessarily God Himself.
And no where does it say- "if you don't believe Jesus is God...off you go to the hot place!!'

 

[tigger 2]

Agree, that is why I asked .."Does it matter if genuine believers do not hold the same doctrine as each other.."as in some not believing that Jesus is God, some do not believe in the trinity...
Yet listening to some people...it sound like they think that people who hold a different opinion of scripture which is not traditional main-line...will be on the slippery slope to hell!!

Well, if 'knowing God' in its most basic understanding means, to start, WHO HE IS, then read the scriptures I gave you with care.

John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

It is eternal life to know as much as we can (from scripture, not man's councils) about God and about Jesus. If I worship God as two (or three persons) and he is truly one, the Father, then I truly don't know God in the most basic sense and I don't know Jesus either. What might I lose for not studying the word of God carefully enough for this basic truth?

1 Thess. 1:8, 9 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power." - NIV.

 

[Helen]

Well, if 'knowing God' in its most basic understanding means, to start, WHO HE IS, then read the scriptures I gave you with care.

John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

It is eternal life to know as much as we can (from scripture, not man's councils) about God and about Jesus. If I worship God as two (or three persons) and he is truly one, the Father, then I truly don't know God in the most basic sense and I don't know Jesus either. What might I lose for not studying the word of God carefully enough for this basic truth?

1 Thess. 1:8, 9 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power." - NIV.

Then I have to disagree with you.
Even the best of us may " think" we know God...but that is presumption..we cannot scratch the surface of our knowledge of God! How on earth can He condemn a man who cannot possibly know His depth.
Even Paul at his end was still crying out " Oh that I may know Him.."
Knowing God is a process...day by day, moment by moment.
We can bask in His Living Presence, and feel His glory...but that is a work of the Holy Spirit upon us.

As I say..we have to differ on this... I see a Father who is drawing us to Himself...not looking for ways to condemn us!!

Bless you...H

 

[Stranger]

Thank you, good post.
So you do agree that if a person is a believer, but does not yet "see" that Jesus is indeed God he is not heading to hell in a hand-basket? Not even if a seasoned Christian.

I was convinced the first time I ever read Isaiah 9:6 " ..and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
But I know others are not so convinced ( how I don't know )
But I do not see this as a 'heaven or hell' issue. I see it as others putting weights around the neck of others and adding to the what Paul lays out of basic salvation. Obviously they can and do believe that Jesus as The Door, The Only Way, The Life..our Saviour etc..but not necessarily God Himself.
And no where does it say- "if you don't believe Jesus is God...off you go to the hot place!!'

Well....one may be saved without knowing that Jesus is the Son of God. Correct? I mean maybe all they got was that they needed Jesus Christ as their Saviour and they believed. But, after seeing that the Bible declares that Jesus is the Son of God, it is hard to imagine a believer rejecting that. In other words, the scenario you are projecting is one becomes saved by trusting in Jesus Christ. But then he never knows anything more about Jesus Christ or God from the Bible. Is he saved? Yes.

But then if he does have access to the Bible, then he will believe and know that Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh. He certainly will not teach that Jesus is not God.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Thanks for post @Stranger

I see this no different that those who are long standing Christians but do not believe 'see' the trinity. Many just don't believe either senario because they have studied and can't 'see' that same as we see.

I still can't see that it condemns them as unbelievers as some seem think and say! No more than those who say that speaking in tongues is demonic or just stupid babble...or will those people also say that they too are going to hell?

That is what is bothering me right now.

 

[Wormwood]

In my estimation, the identity of Jesus is paramount to what it means to be a "Christian." This is precisely what 1 John is about. People who discount the biblical teaching about the person and work of Christ are undermining the very fabric of the Gospel. Jesus is not just a name. The name has content. When we exchange that content for something else, then we are no longer believing what Jesus told us to believe. To believe "in him" does not merely mean to believe things about him. It means to believe in his identity as the Messiah and the incarnate deity. In fact, the book of John makes very plain to us that the sin of the Pharisees was their rejection of his claims about who he was and where he came from.

“Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.” (John 8:54–59, ESV)

I believe we have to be very careful on this topic. Mormons claim they believe in "Jesus." Jehovah's Witnesses claim they believe in "Jesus." Even Muslims believe in "Jesus." Yet each of these has a very different understanding of who Jesus is and what he came to do. Simply saying, "I believe in Jesus" means nothing if the content or understanding of who Jesus is happens to be deeply flawed. This is illustrated as well throughout the NT.

“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life.” (1 John 2:22–25, ESV)

The issue in John's day was there were false teachers (later known as Gnostics) who were teaching that the Spirit of Christ came upon the man Jesus and taught humanity truth and wisdom from God. However, they did not believe that Jesus the man and the Christ were one in the same because they were dualists. So, the issue was they were trying to wed the Christian teaching about Jesus and Greek philosophy about dualism and spiritual things being good and physical things being evil. Thus, they taught that Jesus the man could not be God because flesh is obviously evil and corrupt. Thus they taught the Spirit of Christ came upon the man Jesus at baptism but left him at the cross.

The point here is that John is saying, "if what you hear from the beginning abides in you..." then you will have eternal life. Accepting false concepts about who Jesus is and changing his identity is the work of antichrist spirits. They twist the Biblical image of Jesus and distort it into something else. Many cults out there have done this and usually the purpose of it is for some leader to draw after themselves their own following.

Moreover, I think the deity of Christ is paramount, not only because Scripture clearly teaches this to be the case, but also because there are some serious theological issues that arise if we reject Christ's deity. God makes it very clear in the OT that there is only ONE savior, and no other. God alone saves. God alone is our redeemer, our salvation and our righteousness. If Jesus is demoted to being merely a man, a messenger or some kind of angelic being, then our salvation is owed to this human or creature. God is merely the planner, but not the executer of our salvation. Jesus is the first and the last, the beginning and the end. He is the author and and finisher of our faith. He is not merely a middle-man/angel. Moreover, Jesus is worshipped throughout the NT. If he is not God, then God is essentially giving his glory to another and our righteousness comes from a creature rather than the Creator. Finally, Jesus, in Revelation is clearly pictured as having all the divine qualities of God. He is pictured as all seeing, all knowing and all powerful. John tries to worship an angel and is rebuked by the angel. However, all of heaven and earth worship Jesus and no such rebuke is given. Anyway, I could write all day on the subject. But suffice it to say that Christianity has held to the Scriptures and the central doctrines about the person and work of Jesus for 2,000 years. Suddenly saying these biblical views and understandings are unimportant and can be simply be dismissed is basically trying to redefining what all of history has understood Christianity to mean. A very dangerous and unwise thing to do in my estimation.

 

[face2face]

Well, if 'knowing God' in its most basic understanding means, to start, WHO HE IS, then read the scriptures I gave you with care.

John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - NIV.

It is eternal life to know as much as we can (from scripture, not man's councils) about God and about Jesus. If I worship God as two (or three persons) and he is truly one, the Father, then I truly don't know God in the most basic sense and I don't know Jesus either. What might I lose for not studying the word of God carefully enough for this basic truth?

1 Thess. 1:8, 9 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power." - NIV.

Good thoughts tigger...you are opening many doors for the inquiring mind to walk through.

The Christian believer reads of a God Who is a personal being Who exists as a single divine Person (Yahweh; the Father). This attribute is arguably the most important of all, since it has a direct bearing upon this debate (Who is God). The identity of God is explicitly defined in Scripture on many occasions, and the unitary nature of His personhood is repeatedly emphasised.

For example:

Deuteronomy 6:4, “Listen, Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!”

Deuteronomy 32:6, “Is this how you repay the LORD, you foolish, unwise people? Is he not your father, your creator? He has made you and established you.”

Psalm 89:26, “He will call out to me, ‘You are my father, my God, and the protector who delivers me’”

Isaiah 63:16, “For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not recognize us. You, LORD, are our father; you have been called our protector from ancient times.”

John 4:21, 23, “Jesus said to her, ‘Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem… But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers’”

John 17:3, “Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent”

1 Corinthians 8:6, “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live”

Galatians 1:1, “From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead)”

Some of these verses present unique challenges for Trinitarian theology, since they demonstrate an unequivocal distinction between Father and Son as two separate persons who exist as individual beings. As the debate progresses we will see that Trinitarians will find it necessary to construct an
increasingly complex system of “solutions” and “work‐arounds” by which they attempt to “explain away” the many Bible passages (such as John 17:3) which contain this strictly Unitarian language.

By contrast, Biblical Unitarians can take all of these verses at face value without resorting to lengthy “explanations” of statements which do not require any explanation at all.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

an anyone here tell me why it really matters?
If a person follows the words of Jesus, loves God and loves his brother/neighbour ...why would it matter if he didn't have the revelation that Jesus was God ?

This is not a tongue in cheek question, but a serious one. Anyone?

As you all know by now, I believe God will check out our heart at the End, not our doctrine.
Hope everyone here in this thread answers this Q. Thanks.

Hi BG
It doesn't derail this thread.
If Jesus is not God, and you are worshipping Him, are you not breaking the 1st Commandment? OR, are you not worshipping Him?

 

[bbyrd009]

He certainly will not teach that Jesus is not God.

he certainly will not teach that Jesus is to be worshipped, either
Nehushtan was broken up, regardless of who likes it or not!

 

[bbyrd009]

Thanks for post @Stranger

I see this no different that those who are long standing Christians but do not believe 'see' the trinity. Many just don't believe either senario because they have studied and can't 'see' that same as we see.

I still can't see that it condemns them as unbelievers as some seem think and say! No more than those who say that speaking in tongues is demonic or just stupid babble...or will those people also say that they too are going to hell?

That is what is bothering me right now.

um, what exactly is bothering you? that they are revealed, or their judgements of others, that reveal them?

 

[Wormwood]

Good thoughts tigger...you are opening many doors for the inquiring mind to walk through.

The Christian believer reads of a God Who is a personal being Who exists as a single divine Person (Yahweh; the Father). This attribute is arguably the most important of all, since it has a direct bearing upon this debate (Who is God). The identity of God is explicitly defined in Scripture on many occasions, and the unitary nature of His personhood is repeatedly emphasised.

For example:

Deuteronomy 6:4, “Listen, Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!”

Deuteronomy 32:6, “Is this how you repay the LORD, you foolish, unwise people? Is he not your father, your creator? He has made you and established you.”

Psalm 89:26, “He will call out to me, ‘You are my father, my God, and the protector who delivers me’”

Isaiah 63:16, “For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not recognize us. You, LORD, are our father; you have been called our protector from ancient times.”

John 4:21, 23, “Jesus said to her, ‘Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem… But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers’”

John 17:3, “Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent”

1 Corinthians 8:6, “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live”

Galatians 1:1, “From Paul, an apostle (not from men, nor by human agency, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead)”

Some of these verses present unique challenges for Trinitarian theology, since they demonstrate an unequivocal distinction between Father and Son as two separate persons who exist as individual beings. As the debate progresses we will see that Trinitarians will find it necessary to construct an
increasingly complex system of “solutions” and “work‐arounds” by which they attempt to “explain away” the many Bible passages (such as John 17:3) which contain this strictly Unitarian language.

By contrast, Biblical Unitarians can take all of these verses at face value without resorting to lengthy “explanations” of statements which do not require any explanation at all.

F2F

F2F,

I think your caricaturization of Trinitarian theology is both inaccurate and unfair. If anything, Trinitarians hold strongly to the Scriptures and do not discount any of the Scriptures you have quoted. If anything, our position may seem "complex" because we hold all these passages as accurate and true without dismissing any of them. God is one. There is only one God. That one God consists of three distinct persons with one essence. This is not a "work-around." It is simply the acceptance of what is clearly taught in Scripture. Jesus is distinct from the Father. He was not talking to himself in the Garden. He was not pulling a fast on on his disciples when he spoke of the Holy Spirit as "another counsellor." Yet, Jesus was also telling the truth when he claimed to be the "I AM." Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke of ONE name (not names) by which disciples were to be baptized....Father, Son and Holy Spirit. John was telling the truth when he spoke of Jesus as the Word of God who was God. The author of Hebrews was telling the truth when he spoke of Jesus as the essence of God and exact representation of God's being. Paul was telling the truth when he spoke of Jesus as having the very "form of God" yet released his equal standing with God and humbled himself to become a man. Moreover, we do not see any contradiction in Jesus being worshipped since God commanded that none be worshipped but Him, because he is the incarnate God.

In sum, we do take verses at face value. We would rather our acceptance of the Bible be straight-forward than accept some verses and explain away others in order to keep a theology that is reasonable to the carnal mind. If any viewpoint has to have "explanations," it is the one that has to go into great detail to explain why Scriptures aren't really saying what they appear to be saying....i.e. Jesus really wasnt being worshipped, John wasnt really calling him God, it only seems Thomas was talking to Jesus when he said, "my God," Jesus really wasnt claiming to be "I AM," etc. Again, we just accept the Scriptures as they are and embrace some mystery rather than trying to flatten the texts and cram them into a preconceived theological system. If your theology is not comfortable with some mystery, then I doubt it is very reflective of the God of the Bible.

 

[Helen]

um, what exactly is bothering you? that they are revealed, or their judgements of others, that reveal them?

This is what is bothering me.

I said---

I still can't see that it condemns them as unbelievers as some seem think and say! No more than those who say that speaking in tongues is demonic or just stupid babble...or will those people also say that they too are going to hell?

I am just a bit gutted when I hear people say in effect " If they don't believe what I believe they are damed and going to hell"

God does NOT say anywhere- " You must believe that Jesus is God, ( or the trinity or whatever) ...or you will be damed. "
Yet some Christians say this, as if it is "the Gospel"...

Yep, it's my pet peeve...

 

[tigger 2]

This is what is bothering me.

I said---

I am just a bit gutted when I hear people say in effect " If they don't believe what I believe they are damed and going to hell"

God does NOT say anywhere- " You must believe that Jesus is God, ( or the trinity or whatever) ...or you will be damed. "
Yet some Christians say this, as if it is "the Gospel"...

Yep, it's my pet peeve...

Scripture doesn't even say that 'God is three persons in the one God,' or even 'God is three.' In fact the word 'three' is never used for God at all.