Assurance of salvation:

[bbyrd009]

***
Did Peter say this on the day of Pentecost?????????? I think not.

ok, not sure what the significance is there, the v just came to mind on the fly.
Some good ammo for you on that other thread i tagged you in, there's a long comparo right above the tag, a couple posts above.
I'm not buying it, mind you, but if it serves you then so what i guess

 

[verzanumi24]

John 5:24-27
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
NKJV

John 6:34-35
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
NKJV

John 6:46-50
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
NKJV

Acts 13:38-39
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
NKJV

Romans 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NKJV

Romans 10:10-13
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV

1 John 5:9-13
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
NKJV

The assurance is based on being obedient to doing what Jesus commaned.

John 10:27-28 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

To follow Jesus means to do what He did. It's not a pasive word......sitting in church every week listing to the pastor and putting money in the collection plate is not what Jesus meant by following Him. Jesus was involved in the community and one of the things He did was healed those who needed healing.

Luke 4:40 (NASB)
40 While the sun was setting, all those who had any who were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and laying His hands on each one of them, He was healing them.

Acts 10:38 (ASV)
38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Jesus also preached the kingdom of God. He even said that was what He was sent to preach.

Luke 4:43-44 (KJV)
43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.

Jesus commaned His people to preach the kingdom of God and to use their gifts.

Luke 9:60 (KJV)
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Matthew 25:14-15 (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.


The use of the gifts they were given will determine what they will recieve when Jesus returns.

Matthew 25:16-30
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


But those who didn't use the gifts they were given by Jesus will be cast out......they will not make it.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The one who refused to use the gifts he or she was given is regarded and wicked and lazy. Lazy, because the person knew the reason he or she was given their gifts, but they didn't anyway. Wicked, because by not using their gifts, they deprived others of the benefit they would have gotton. Jesus in that parable didn't accept the lazy servant's excuse, because even if he didn't know how to use what he was given, he could have at least went to those who were the experts and have them help him.


And in regards to the gospel of the kingdom of God, Jesus said the end will come when that message is preached to all Nations.

Matthew 24:14 (ASV)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.


It's not God's people who should be waiting for Jesus to return, but rather, it is God who is waiting on His people to preach the kingdom of God to all Nations. People always want to know when Jesus will return, and Jesus in Matthew 24:14 tells us when......when the gospel of the kingdom of God begines to be preach to all Nations. We don't know the day or the hour, but we know the time.


Preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God is all of God's people's responsiblity. But to preach it, you have to know what it is or what's it's not. The gospel of the kingdom of God is not about Grace, Calvery or preaching about Jesus.

 

[H. Richard]

So the scriptures I gave are wrong, right? If mine are wrong what about yours?

What I see is that you take what was said to Jews under the law and want to impose them on those under grace. That is exactly what the Judaiizers were doing to the Gentile saved under Paul's gospel of grace and it is wrong. Your Bible must not have Acts 15 in it.

Acts 15:5-19
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

This is what you are doing.

The Jerusalem Council

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

And what manner is that????? since you think those under grace have to keep the Jewish law???

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 'After! this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.'
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
NKJV

Now go to Acts 21. Here we see that the Jews were zealous of the law but were upset because Paul said the Jews didn't have to keep the law either. But we see that Peter said the Jews would be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles.

What do you make of this??????????????????????????????

 

[Triumph1300]

The assurance is based on being obedient to doing what Jesus commaned.

These are all good points and all these things a born again Christian should certainly do.
But these things are done as a result of salvation and are not a condition to salvation.
Otherwise you fall into legalism and a doctrine of works.
Salvation is a free gift.

 

[verzanumi24]

These are all good points and all these things a born again Christian should certainly do.
But these things are done as a result of salvation and are not a condition to salvation.
Otherwise you fall into legalism and a doctrine of works.
Salvation is a free gift.

Nope. If you read my reply in it's entirerty and understood matthew 25 you would see that if one has not been profitable to Jesus, such a person will not make it. But unfortunitly, most christians have been mislead to believe that it's a free ride. But Jesus did what He needed to do, so we also have our part in our salvation as well.


The unprofitable servant in matthew 25 didn't do what he was required to do, so he lost out.

matthew 25
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Just because you can't earn salvation from doing good works, doesn't mean one will enter the kingdom of God without doing good works.

Everyone will be rewared accoring to their works.
Romans 2:6-7 (KJV)
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

No good works, no reward and no reward one will not have a reason to be in the kingdom of God....so the indivdual who didn't use their gifts for the betterment of the world will lose out.

 

[verzanumi24]

So the scriptures I gave are wrong, right? If mine are wrong what about yours?

What I see is that you take what was said to Jews under the law and want to impose them on those under grace. That is exactly what the Judaiizers were doing to the Gentile saved under Paul's gospel of grace and it is wrong. Your Bible must not have Acts 15 in it.

Acts 15:5-19
5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

This is what you are doing.

The Jerusalem Council

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

And what manner is that????? since you think those under grace have to keep the Jewish law???

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 'After! this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.'
18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.
19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
NKJV

Now go to Acts 21. Here we see that the Jews were zealous of the law but were upset because Paul said the Jews didn't have to keep the law either. But we see that Peter said the Jews would be saved in the same manner as the Gentiles.

What do you make of this??????????????????????????????

My point was, and I thought the scriptures that I presented was clear and it is, that Jesus commads His people to do good works.....that's the purpose for Him giving people gifts. The people of God should be preaching the kingdom of God and teaching those who believe what Jesus taught. Preaching is what God's people do in regards to the world, but teaching is for what you do in Church. Most Churches even have that wrong.

 

[H. Richard]

My point was, and I thought the scriptures that I presented was clear and it is, that Jesus commads His people to do good works.....that's the purpose for Him giving people gifts. The people of God should be preaching the kingdom of God and teaching those who believe what Jesus taught. Preaching is what God's people do in regards to the world, but teaching is for what you do in Church. Most Churches even have that wrong.

If you take away the work of Jesus on the cross you are anti-Christ. The only thing that saves a person under God's grace is faith (trust) in the work of Jesus on the cross where He paid for all the sins of the world. And that does not require a church.

 

[Triumph1300]

My point was, and I thought the scriptures that I presented was clear and it is, that Jesus commads His people to do good works.....that's the purpose for Him giving people gifts. The people of God should be preaching the kingdom of God and teaching those who believe what Jesus taught. Preaching is what God's people do in regards to the world, but teaching is for what you do in Church. Most Churches even have that wrong.

Yup.
But all of this can only be done by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
In other words you need to accept Christ first and accept what He did on the cross.
...... after becoming a Christian works are a natural thing for the Christian to do.

Works does not save.

Salvation....It's free.

 

[Triumph1300]

If you take away the work of Jesus on the cross you are anti-Christ.

You nailed it.
Works will never replace the cross.

 

[Triumph1300]

Jesus commads His people to do good works

Exactly.
His People.
Which means the born again Christians.
The ones that received the free gift of salvation earlier.... without having worked for it to receive it.

Nobody would be saved if we had to earn it by works.

 

[verzanumi24]

Exactly.
His People.
Which means the born again Christians.
The ones that received the free gift of salvation earlier.... without having worked for it to receive it.

Nobody would be saved if we had to earn it by works.

Born again Christian is not a term that Jesus or the early disciples/Church use that to discribe themselves. But that's for another topic.


Now, back to the topic at hand. I didn't say or implied that God's people were required to work for their salvation. My point was, and to which the scriptures that I post should have been clear, is that without doing good works the indivdual will not be in the kingdom of God. So one is not doing good works to earn salvation, but in or for one to fulfil their purpose the indivdual must be activily engaing in using their gifts. It's like this.....if a bilionair standing in front of you, and told you that he is giving you ten milion dollars for free, all you need to do is step forward to recieve the check. But if you don't step forward, you will never get the check for ten milion dollars even though you are getting it for free. In the kingdom of God, God does not have any place for someone that will be doing nothing forever. God works, and so all His children will also be working forever.

 

[Triumph1300]

My point was, and to which the scriptures that I post should have been clear, is that without doing good works the indivdual will not be in the kingdom of God.

What do you actually consider "good works" ?

 

[verzanumi24]

Yup.
But all of this can only be done by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
In other words you need to accept Christ first and accept what He did on the cross.
...... after becoming a Christian works are a natural thing for the Christian to do.

Works does not save.

Salvation....It's free.

The Holy Spirit doesn't force the person......the indivdual have to make the discision to take action. This is why the scripture say that everyone will be rewarded according to their works. It doesn't say one will be rewarded according to the works of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Triumph1300]

Born again Christian is not a term that Jesus or the early disciples/Church use that to discribe themselves. But that's for another topic.

Really?
Even if this another topic, you decided to bring it up anyways.

What does this mean to you:
“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.’

 

[Triumph1300]

It doesn't say one will be rewarded according to the works of the Holy Spirit.

I did not say that.

I have news for you:
Every single follower of Jesus is guided by the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever heard about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit???????

 

[verzanumi24]

What do you actually consider "good works" ?

Doing good works involves the use of one's gifts......everybody has gifts or tallent that they were born with, because when Jesus left for Heaven, He gave gifts to all people.

Ephesians 4:8 (MontgomeryNT)
8 Thus it is said, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men.


It's the responsiblity of God's people to not only use the gifts they were given to make the world a better place, but they are suppose to be preaching the kingdom of God, and teach all those who believe. It behooves every child of God to know what their gifts are, and use their gifts. Why? Because it's the gifts that we have and use that will determine our reward. The more one use their gifts, the more gifts the person will descover that they didn't know they had and the greater the reward/authority in the kingdom of God they will recieve.

 

[verzanumi24]

Really?
Even if this another topic, you decided to bring it up anyways.

What does this mean to you:
“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.’

First thing: Jesus only used born again once and it was to a pharisee in private at night. Secondly: Jesus never use the term born again christian. Jesus never refered to His people as christians and God the Father never called His people christians. It was the pagans that use the word christians to describe the disciples...and it was intended as an insult And the disciples never use the word christians to describe themselves. They refered to themselves as either disciples or brothers.

 

[verzanumi24]

If you take away the work of Jesus on the cross you are anti-Christ. The only thing that saves a person under God's grace is faith (trust) in the work of Jesus on the cross where He paid for all the sins of the world. And that does not require a church.

I'm not talking about what Jesus did, I'm talking about what Jesus commanded His people to do.

 

[Triumph1300]

First thing: Jesus only used born again once and it was to a pharisee in private at night.

It's the same message today. You must be born again.
He said it, that settles it. Once and for all.

Private at night or not.

 

[Triumph1300]

I'm not talking about what Jesus did, I'm talking about what Jesus commanded His people to do.

Actually you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Jesus said :You MUST be born again and wait upon the power from up high.
(The baptism of the Holy Spirit.)