Babbling Against Speaking in Tongues

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Berserk

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Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 2 points establish this teaching: ( (a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15).

(b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5). (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

(2) Point (1) is not refuted by Paul's preference that we all prophesy (14:5). This counter-point is refuted by 2 facts: (a) Those who disregard tongues for this reason blaspheme the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed. If speaking in tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone (14:18)?
(b) If prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is just as great if it is interpreted (14:5). In that sense, both gifts are equally "great" and should therefore both be diligently sought.
(c) What critics fail to realize is this: in 1 Cor 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in other public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:1-6).

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim that the gift of speaking in tongues is not divinely intended for everyone (12:29-30). (a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in Paul's list that critics invoke to claim that these gifts are not divinely intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so. (b) So when Paul encourages us all to speak in tongues, he clearly means that this gift if available to all believers.

(4) In 3 of the 4 times people receive the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience of receiving the Spirit is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers money to learn the secret of channeling such power (8:19-20). So it is reasonable to believe that these Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well established pattern does not mean that Spirit baptism requires speaking in tongues (see 1 Cor 12:13); but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12,v 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)" a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages.

Edi
 

marks

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Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:
Not really.

Of course, I'm not a critic of speaking in tongues, only, that this gift is not in fact given to everyone. Do all prophesy? Do all work miracles? Do all speak in tongues? Any sincere response to this passage is to recognize this is rhetorically asked, and the answer is in fact no, not all do speak in tongues.

If "praying in the Spirit" were in fact defined as praying in a tongue then this would create a difficulty understanding how we are all commanded to do that which we are not all gifted to do. But it's not defined that way, actually.

You've cited two passages to show this:

1 Corinthians 14:15 KJV
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Ephesians 6:18 KJV
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

These don't actually speak of the same thing here.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul uses the Dative form, meaning, I will pray by the intrumentality of the Spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also.

In Ephesians, we are commanded to pray "in the Spirit", using the preposition "in".

The one does not define the other as something we are also told not everyone does.

Much love!
 

reformed1689

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Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 2 points establish this teaching: ( (a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15).

(b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5). (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

(2) Point (1) is not refuted by Paul's preference that we all prophesy (14:5). This counter-point is refuted by 2 facts: (a) Those who disregard tongues for this reason blaspheme the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed. If speaking in tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone (14:18)?
(b) If prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is just as great if it is interpreted (14:5). In that sense, both gifts are equally "great" and should therefore both be diligently sought.
(c) What critics fail to realize is this: in 1 Cor 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in other public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:1-6).

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim that the gift of speaking in tongues is not divinely intended for everyone (12:29-30). (a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in Paul's list that critics invoke to claim that these gifts are not divinely intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so. (b) So when Paul encourages us all to speak in tongues, he clearly means that this gift if available to all believers.

(4) In 3 of the 4 times people receive the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience of receiving the Spirit is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers money to learn the secret of channeling such power (8:19-20). So it is reasonable to believe that these Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well established pattern does not mean that Spirit baptism requires speaking in tongues (see 1 Cor 12:13); but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12,v 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)" a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages.

Edi
No, speaking in tongues is not the only form of praying in the spirit, how absurd! We don't have prophecies anymore, unless you are talking about preaching, we do not have tongues anymore. Tongues in Scripture was never a secret prayer language. Show me an example of that? You won't find it. You appeal to 1 Corinthians 13 as part of the tongues "proof" yet it says they will cease. I guess you didn't read that part.
 
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dev553344

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No, speaking in tongues is not the only form of praying in the spirit, how absurd! We don't have prophecies anymore, unless you are talking about preaching, we do not have tongues anymore. Tongues in Scripture was never a secret prayer language. Show me an example of that? You won't find it. You appeal to 1 Corinthians 13 as part of the tongues "proof" yet it says they will cease. I guess you didn't read that part.
I have received prophecies myself so I don't believe what you believe. Just thought I would point that out. Not that I believe in tongues other than to speak in a foreign language that is understandable by the listener.
 

L.A.M.B.

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I agree @Beserk
I am baptized in water and baptized and full of the Holy Spirit as in Acts with evidence of tongues.

I do not have this lie that is passing among false leaders and false witnesses. HE is his own the language in prayer and it is a language between the Spirit of which Paul's says making groanings he utters on our behalf and with God.

He cannot be taught to someone to speak in tongues,it comes from deep within by his power. These last days ppl are very near blasphemy if not already having committed it in this damnable lie of just say........ real fast.

The word teaches us not to fear what to say when brought before authorities but that the HS will give us what to say. We must also rely on him to BUILD US UP, PRAYING IN THE HOLY GHOST!.

We have been bought with a price and God wants NONE to perish so by our belief he prepares us with the whole arsenal of himself and his word. This is our right to have the POWER of God by receiving the Holy Ghost.

You can either seek and accept this gift as with the gift of salvation or not,you will NOT be forced.

May we each desire to receive the fullness of God that he might be pleased with our life in Him and that HE MIGHT RECEIVE ALL GLORY!
 

Lifelong_sinner

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As a cessationist, i am here to tell you that the apostolic gifts are gone. John was the last apostle to die and so were the apostolic gifts.

From the OPC church, “Ephesians 2:20, then, indicates that the apostles had a temporary, noncontinuing role in the life of the church. Their place was in the important foundation-laying phase of the church's history. Their function was to provide revelatory, infallibly authoritative, canonical witness to the consummation of salvation history in Christ's finished work. That function was fulfilled. It does not belong to the superstructure-building period to follow. It instead provides the completed foundation on which Christ continues to build the superstructure of the church.”

WCF chpt 1, part 1 states;
“which maketh the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.”

see that? Former ways are now ceased.
 

Pearl

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As a cessationist, i am here to tell you that the apostolic gifts are gone.
Maybe you are wrong, do you ever wonder if you may be? It's probably just a matter of your never having witnessed them. I have seen them at work in both the churches I have been part of and also those I have visited. You need to really look into it and pray about it instead of assuming everybody who has a different view of the matter is false.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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Maybe you are wrong, do you ever wonder if you may be? It's probably just a matter of your never having witnessed them. I have seen them at work in both the churches I have been part of and also those I have visited. You need to really look into it and pray about it instead of assuming everybody who has a different view of the matter is false.

if im wrong, then the Bible must be wrong. Paul said in 1 Cor 13:8-10 “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”
 

Pearl

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if im wrong, then the Bible must be wrong. Paul said in 1 Cor 13:8-10 “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”
Yes it does say that but it means after Jesus returns. Nothing is complete until then.
 

marks

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if im wrong, then the Bible must be wrong. Paul said in 1 Cor 13:8-10 “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.”
What then in the Scriptures tells us what it is that is "the perfect" that will come?

There is only one answer I'm aware of, and it hasn't happened yet.

Much love!
 

reformed1689

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Maybe you are wrong, do you ever wonder if you may be? It's probably just a matter of your never having witnessed them. I have seen them at work in both the churches I have been part of and also those I have visited. You need to really look into it and pray about it instead of assuming everybody who has a different view of the matter is false.
Or we could just read the Bible./
 

reformed1689

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What then in the Scriptures tells us what it is that is "the perfect" that will come?

There is only one answer I'm aware of, and it hasn't happened yet.

Much love!
The Scriptures aren't perfect and complete? The message isn't finished? Hmmm.

What do we need prophecy for today? We don't. It profits nothing. Not to mention it doesn't exist, at least not from God.
 

marks

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So Scripture is not complete? You might want to rethink that one. Shall we test you as a prophet with the biblical test?
Assuming "that which is perfect" means the Bible itself is an innaccurate and unfounded assumption.

There is a place that tells us of what is perfect that will come, do you know what that is?

Much love!
 
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