Behold, a New Heavens and a New Earth!

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Naomi25

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I mentioned the first ... man and woman being named Adam...you said no. I showed you the Scripture. You said nothing more about it.

You skip past landing on the Signifiance.
Wait...I did? I'm pretty sure I answered that? Maybe to someone else? Hang on...I'll look...
No...I answered you in post #88. I said:

"Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. -Genesis 5:2

Yes, 'adam' is the word in Hebrew for 'man', but if we look at the text, the difference is still made; Chapter 5:1 is, Noun Masculine (no capital) - adam, while the next verse 2, is a "Proper Name Masculine" -Adam (capital for a name).

Therefore we see that the usage here is of 'man', like 'mankind'. But in the earlier Chapters...even here in 5:2, it's still highlighting the male AND female. There is a purpose and plan...therefore importance, to the genders."



Most of the posts in this forum lands on, the disagreements between what men carnally logically think.

God is Spirit. Knowing God, Understanding according to God....requires a man to set aside the Carnal and USE HIS spirit the Lord has Quickened.
No...it requires man to open up His Word and read if faithfully. Does the Spirit help? Sure. But he helps through the faithful reading of God's Word that he provided to us. If you're ignoring His Word and relying only on this 'quickening'? Then you ignoring what God has given us and demanded we use. His Word is like a sword. It will not go out and come back void.

The Signifiance of Adam...is..
He was NOT born.
Out from Adam came forth Adam himself,
Also NOT born.

It is a foreshadow...
God was NOT born.
Out from God came forth God Himself,
Also NOT born.

God uses His own creations to teach His creation About Himself....SO His creations CAN have a WAY to KNOW Him and Understanding according to Him.

Isa 45
[23] the word is gone out of my mouth

John 16
[28] I came forth from the Father...

John 16
[27] I came out from God.

Glory to God,
Taken
I honestly have no idea of your point here. In fact, I'm having trouble remembering what the original conversation was about. Male and female, I believe? What does any of this have to do with that? Or does it have nothing, and that's why I'm becoming so very, very, confused?
 

Naomi25

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For something that is a major identity point for some Christians and if it was something God wanted to make very clear, there is literally no verse that comes right out and declares that. Yes, we have a couple of metaphors from Paul equating marriage with the unity we should have in Christ but the only time the bible comes right out and declares who the bride is, it tells us it is the NJ in Rev. 21:9 and no the NJ is not symbolic for the church. Regarding the other two replies, time will tell, I really don't care either way, I'll just be glad to be in His presence and experiencing heaven in every and any way I can.
There's no place that literally comes out and says 'Trinity' either, but the doctrine is clear. You would say the word 'Rapture' isn't in scripture, but you clearly believe it. Likewise, the Church is clearly painted as the bride of Christ. Thus:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. -Ephesians 5:25–27

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. -2 Corinthians 11:2

Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready
;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure
”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” -Revelation 19:7–9

And we can see elsewhere in Revelation where the Saints are given white robes; Rev 3:4-5, 3:18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:14.
So...I think that even without anyone "saying it outright" the doctrine is still sound...don't you think?
 
B

brakelite

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There's no place that literally comes out and says 'Trinity' either, but the doctrine is clear. You would say the word 'Rapture' isn't in scripture, but you clearly believe it. Likewise, the Church is clearly painted as the bride of Christ. Thus:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. -Ephesians 5:25–27

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. -2 Corinthians 11:2

Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready
;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure
”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” -Revelation 19:7–9

And we can see elsewhere in Revelation where the Saints are given white robes; Rev 3:4-5, 3:18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:14.
So...I think that even without anyone "saying it outright" the doctrine is still sound...don't you think?
I can also see instances where we (the church ) are clearly revealed as being candidates for being 'guests' at the wedding. A couple of parables show this...the ten virgins...the underdressed guest etc. And your reference above to those "invited' to the marriage supper...not the marriage itself, but to the supper which traditionally follows the marriage. I also have trouble reconciling our 'brethren' status with our 'groom'.
 

Taken

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To be perfectly honest, I'm only 40% sure I know what you're trying to communicate here. So I might be completely off on a different track...in which case...sorry!

My point was; we don't need to study the Trinity to find the importance of being male and female. Our own natures give us a starting point. And the bible outright tells us. And we don't need to study our 'image' in the hope that doing so will lead us to an understanding of the one who made us so and to therefore see him as 'one'. Again, the bible tells us clearly in scripture that God, though he is one, is also three persons, in character and deed.
So yes, while life IS full of twists, turns and bumps; and living those things brings experience and even wisdom, if we can learn from them; these things in and of themselves do not necessarily shed light on God or ourselves.

Thanks for sharing your point.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Wait...I did? I'm pretty sure I answered that? Maybe to someone else? Hang on...I'll look...
No...I answered you in post #88. I said:

"Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. -Genesis 5:2

Yes, 'adam' is the word in Hebrew for 'man', but if we look at the text, the difference is still made; Chapter 5:1 is, Noun Masculine (no capital) - adam, while the next verse 2, is a "Proper Name Masculine" -Adam (capital for a name).

Therefore we see that the usage here is of 'man', like 'mankind'. But in the earlier Chapters...even here in 5:2, it's still highlighting the male AND female. There is a purpose and plan...therefore importance, to the genders."




No...it requires man to open up His Word and read if faithfully. Does the Spirit help? Sure. But he helps through the faithful reading of God's Word that he provided to us. If you're ignoring His Word and relying only on this 'quickening'? Then you ignoring what God has given us and demanded we use. His Word is like a sword. It will not go out and come back void.


I honestly have no idea of your point here. In fact, I'm having trouble remembering what the original conversation was about. Male and female, I believe? What does any of this have to do with that? Or does it have nothing, and that's why I'm becoming so very, very, confused?

No problem, God Bless,

Taken
 

Naomi25

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I can also see instances where we (the church ) are clearly revealed as being candidates for being 'guests' at the wedding. A couple of parables show this...the ten virgins...the underdressed guest etc.

Okay, fair enough. Let's look at the parables. The parable of the ten virgins. What is Christ's main point in this parable? Verses 12-13 tell us:

But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. -Matthew 25:12–13

It's for his people to be ready, and to be truly ready, we need to know we are 'known' by Christ. We may have received an invitation to the wedding, but if we haven't accepted it, Christ will not know us at all.

In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, we find language of the wedding feast, true, but is it the Wedding Supper of the Lamb that is being spoken of? What is Christ's point here?

But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ -Matthew 22:5–9

The parable is about the Kingdom of heaven, to which the Jewish people were invited, as God's chosen. But when they were invited, they consistently rejected those God sent. So, he invited others...the Gentiles. But, that's not the end of the parable:

And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” -Matthew 22:12–14

This is basically echoing the parable of the ten virgins. To be welcomed into the Kingdom, we must be clothed in the white robes that are given to them who have been washed clean by Christ. For that to happen, we have to be known by Christ. Moving through life making Christian noises with our mouths, going to Church, saying we 'believe' in Jesus, will not cut it. If we do not accept Christ as our own, we will not be clothed appropriately when we come into the Kingdom.

And your reference above to those "invited' to the marriage supper...not the marriage itself, but to the supper which traditionally follows the marriage. I also have trouble reconciling our 'brethren' status with our 'groom'.
Well, my first instinct is to say: usually people who come to the supper have already attended the wedding itself. It's only the close friends and family who get to attend the celebrations after the formal affair. If people more periferal to the family were going to attend one, but not the other, it's usally the ceremony, not the celebration. So...if we see people 'at the supper', we can also automatically assume they were also at the marriage itself, the two being so closely connected.

In regards to the other matter, well, if we track the thought through, we do see a correlation running throughout:

.. that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. -Ephesians 5:26–27

he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, -Titus 3:5

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:14

Christ, with his work for us, with his blood that he purchases us with, 'washes' us. But, the imagry goes further, he 'washes our robes ad makes them white, without spot or blemish'.

Where else does it talk about the Church having white robes?

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. -Revelation 3:4–5

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. -Revelation 6:11

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:14

And then we finally read:

Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready
;
it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure
”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” -Revelation 19:7–9


The fine linen is the righteous deeds of the Saint? It's rather odd, isn't it, since we know that really, our righteous deeds are only what Christ gives us grace to do. But, as Ephesians tells us, he HAS washed us, and made us without blemish. He has cleaned us and made us ready to stand firm in the face of persecution, suffering and even death. These are the white robes we have, when we pass from this life into the next, however it comes for us, still keeping our eyes on him. When we do that, we ARE the 5 wise virgins, and those people invited to the wedding banquet off the streets who do have the right attire. But...we are also the Bride, because we are clothed in find linen, and, as Paul says:

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. -2 Corinthians 11:

We know there is a wedding (19:7). We know there is a bride (19:7). And we know that the groom is the Lamb (21:9). I know there are those here who would argue that the New Jerusalem is not a symbol of the Bride, regardless that's what it actually says, but that's not really the point. The point is, the dots do sort of connect...church...Christ...bride...groom.
 
B

brakelite

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First off, I get that. I have studied all those scriptures and can clearly see the correlation. In one sense I can only agree with them...we are certainly to be prepared as a bride adorned by the righteousness of Christ Himself. Which leads me to this....
Well, my first instinct is to say: usually people who come to the supper have already attended the wedding itself. It's only the close friends and family who get to attend the celebrations after the formal affair. If people more periferal to the family were going to attend one, but not the other, it's usally the ceremony, not the celebration. So...if we see people 'at the supper', we can also automatically assume they were also at the marriage itself, the two being so closely connected.
In traditional Middle Eastern weddings the guests were not invited to the wedding proper. It was after the wedding that the groom came to collect the guests to partake of the celebrations.

Where else does it talk about the Church having white robes?
In traditional middle eastern weddings, it was also the norm for the grooms family/father/king to provide the wedding outfit. one was sent to each guest beforehand. Refusing to wear it and "come as you are" was a grave insult to the family.

All that said, it is an interesting topic, with many fascinating parallels and analogies. I think however if we are going to be Biblically accurate, I side with the actual marriage being between Christ and His kingdom, the New Jerusalem (a literal city) after which we as honoured guests, make up the members of that kingdom returning with the city and the King, to the earth at the conclusion of the millennium. So there are aspects of the whole scenario which apply to both perspectives.
 

Trekson

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If the Church is called the wife of Christ, it should be obvious that the Church is also the Bride of Christ. Brides become wives as soon as they are married. But first they are engaged or *espoused*.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (2 Cor 11:2) First, G3423 would be the word used for (espoused) this kind of engagement. This verse uses G718 which can mean betrothed but it implies "joint" which is the type of union we have with Christ. This is the only time this word is used. Secondly, a servant is usually not empowered to be "espousing" anyone to their masters.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8). This group is not stated to be the church, you are assuming it is. The church as a group is only found in Rev. 7:9, in heaven after the rapture/resurrection. The difference is our robes are white because they are washed in the Blood of the Lamb, according to scripture, our "righteousness" is as "filthy rags" before God, not fit for a wedding. The only righteousness the church possesses is Christ's righteousness covering us by His blood.

According to Scripture, Christ is the divine Bridegroom who comes personally for His Bride (the Church) at the Resurrection/Rapture. There is a marriage in Heaven, there is also a marriage supper in Heaven , and there is also eternal union and communion between Christ and His Church within the New Jerusalem.
. None of this is scripturally based, it is all assumed because of a couple of metaphors.
 

Trekson

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So...I think that even without anyone "saying it outright" the doctrine is still sound...don't you think?

With all due respect...No. The first verse is a metaphor, the second verse was answered in my reply to Enoch's #98, the third does NOT identify this group as the church, that is an assumption, also answered in my reply to Enoch. Don't you think it is significant that in all his teachings and parables dealing with marriage, not once is the church implied to be a bride?
 

Enoch111

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. None of this is scripturally based, it is all assumed because of a couple of metaphors.
God uses metaphors for the Church so what is your problem? The Church is the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ. It is also the Lamb's Wife. These metaphors have deeper spiritual significance which will only become evident in eternity.
 

bbyrd009

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It is going to be major. So much so that “the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared.”
note that "It" is supposed to be "the glory that is revealed in us," though, right.

fwiw imo there are some lessons that I am currently learning in sharing one's "highs" that I guess also apply to the lows, great synopsis btw, me too. prolly the "we sang but you did not dance" thing going on?
 

Trekson

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God uses metaphors for the Church so what is your problem? The Church is the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ. It is also the Lamb's Wife. These metaphors have deeper spiritual significance which will only become evident in eternity.

Not quite true Enoch, the bible comes right out and calls us His Body, btw that's not a metaphor and when the church learns this perhaps we could do a better job! (Understanding this will bring you closer to the identity of the church in a wedding scenario) 1Cor. 3:9 calls us God's building straight out! Why do you think the bible does NOT say, "You are my bride, You are Christ's bride, the church is my bride, etc.? It doesn't say it, because we aren't. It's simply the church "thinking more highly of itself than it ought to think"!
 

Davy

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Yes just playing around I try not to get too serious about it. Wife says I should pursue it as a career. But that’s scary

Based just on the above image, your wife is right. You should... consider pursuing it as a career, er, maybe at least a second career until you build a following. Real representative art is back in vogue (meaning non-abstract).

I studied art at university in my early twenties. My instructor tried to get me to study privately with an established Realist artist named Carlos. I too then was too scared to make the jump to full time starving artist. I haven't done anything with it.
 
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Waiting on him

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Based just on the above image, your wife is right. You should... consider pursuing it as a career, er, maybe at least a second career until you build a following. Real representative art is back in vogue (meaning non-abstract).

I studied art at university in my early twenties. My instructor tried to get me to study privately with an established Realist artist named Carlos. I too then was too scared to make the jump to full time starving artist. I haven't done anything with it.
Never too late to revisit.
 

Naomi25

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First off, I get that. I have studied all those scriptures and can clearly see the correlation. In one sense I can only agree with them...we are certainly to be prepared as a bride adorned by the righteousness of Christ Himself. Which leads me to this....

In traditional Middle Eastern weddings the guests were not invited to the wedding proper. It was after the wedding that the groom came to collect the guests to partake of the celebrations.
This may be true. Except, in the biblical case I see one fact outweighing that consideration: the body of Christ. Yes, there is mention of 'guests', but the true focual point is always the Bride, who, in point of fact is 'the guest of honor' at said wedding and supper. And, as we must see as we read through both OT and NT, who are we going to find in the New Heavens and New Earth that have been welcomed to either function, who have not been 'washed' by Christ and therefore welcomed into his body...in otherwords, the Church? If every saved person is a member of the Church, and we see from the analogies of being washed and wearing white robes that the Bride is the Church, where on earth are we getting just plain "guests" from anyway? The angels?


In traditional middle eastern weddings, it was also the norm for the grooms family/father/king to provide the wedding outfit. one was sent to each guest beforehand. Refusing to wear it and "come as you are" was a grave insult to the family.

All that said, it is an interesting topic, with many fascinating parallels and analogies. I think however if we are going to be Biblically accurate, I side with the actual marriage being between Christ and His kingdom, the New Jerusalem (a literal city) after which we as honoured guests, make up the members of that kingdom returning with the city and the King, to the earth at the conclusion of the millennium. So there are aspects of the whole scenario which apply to both perspectives.
That's an iteresting thought, and is possibly valid, as the New Jerusalem is clearly being used as a symbol for the Bride. However...I think we must allow that every time there is mention of this bride, and every time there is mention of Christ being groom, is it in reference to people. And, to me, it fits, because; it's always about people. God chose the Israelites in the OT, they were his wife, even though they prostituted themselves. In the NT, Jesus comes to ransom a people for himself, from all nations. He doesn't come to ransom a land for himself. He washes people clean, redeems people. It's the Church that Paul talks about making herself ready, as a bride.
For me, the imagry and obvious focual point of the salvational story leads to the conclusion that the Church is the Bride.
 
B

brakelite

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This may be true. Except, in the biblical case I see one fact outweighing that consideration: the body of Christ. Yes, there is mention of 'guests', but the true focual point is always the Bride, who, in point of fact is 'the guest of honor' at said wedding and supper. And, as we must see as we read through both OT and NT, who are we going to find in the New Heavens and New Earth that have been welcomed to either function, who have not been 'washed' by Christ and therefore welcomed into his body...in otherwords, the Church? If every saved person is a member of the Church, and we see from the analogies of being washed and wearing white robes that the Bride is the Church, where on earth are we getting just plain "guests" from anyway? The angels?



That's an iteresting thought, and is possibly valid, as the New Jerusalem is clearly being used as a symbol for the Bride. However...I think we must allow that every time there is mention of this bride, and every time there is mention of Christ being groom, is it in reference to people. And, to me, it fits, because; it's always about people. God chose the Israelites in the OT, they were his wife, even though they prostituted themselves. In the NT, Jesus comes to ransom a people for himself, from all nations. He doesn't come to ransom a land for himself. He washes people clean, redeems people. It's the Church that Paul talks about making herself ready, as a bride.
For me, the imagry and obvious focual point of the salvational story leads to the conclusion that the Church is the Bride.
I am not attempting to convince you to accept my view, but simply to offer a different perspective. Here are some more texts to ponder....
When, after Christ's ministry began, the disciples of John came to him with the complaint that all men were following the new Teacher, John showed how clearly he understood his relation to the Messiah, and how gladly he welcomed the One for whom he had prepared the way.
“A man can receive nothing,” he said, “except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him; rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.”

Said the angel to John, “Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.” “He carried me away in the spirit,” says the prophet, “and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.” [Revelation 21:9, 10.] Clearly, then, the bride represents the holy city, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. [Revelation 19:9.] If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride. Christ, as stated by the prophet Daniel, will receive from the Ancient of days in Heaven, “dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,” he will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of his kingdom, “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” [Daniel 7:14; Revelation 21:2.] Having received the kingdom, he will come in his glory, as King of kings, and Lord of lords, for the redemption of his people, who are to “sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,” at his table in his kingdom, [Matthew 8:11; Luke 22:30.] to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I think the imagery given us of the church being the bride is a symbolic inference to strengthen the sense of love Christ has for His redeemed. But the real union I see as that between Christ and His kingdom, represented by the holy city...what the holy city is adorned with is us...we are the jewels that make the bride acceptable.
In both the Old and New Testaments, marriage represents the loving sacred union that exists between Christ and His people. (Except those numerous occasions when Israel chose to adulterate herself with idols). To the mind of Jesus the gladness of the wedding pointed to the rejoicing of that day when He shall bring home His bride, the redeemed, to the Father's house. “As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.” “He will rejoice over thee with joy; ... He will joy over thee with singing.” Isaiah 62:5; Zephaniah 3:17. John the apostle wrote: “I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, ... saying, ... Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.” Revelation 19:6, 7.
So yes, I can certainly understand that there is plenty of evidence both ways, but I tend to side with the kingdom...at least for now.
 

Naomi25

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With all due respect...No. The first verse is a metaphor, the second verse was answered in my reply to Enoch's #98, the third does NOT identify this group as the church, that is an assumption, also answered in my reply to Enoch. Don't you think it is significant that in all his teachings and parables dealing with marriage, not once is the church implied to be a bride?

I'm guessing by "the first verse" you mean this?

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. -Ephesians 5:25–27

So...this verse is a metaphor? Wow...aren't YOU supposed to be the literalist and me the idealist? I'll grant you that the relationship Christ has with the Church is not the exact same as husband and wife have here on earth! But, just as we commit to each other, cherish each other, love each other, and so many other things, Paul is drawing those connections between the Church's relationship with Jesus. Why? Because there is that connection there. Not sexual, but in every other way a godly marriage should be.
And it goes further than that. When we consider the OT, how Israel was the unfaithful wife of God, we now see in this verse that Jesus takes his people and washes them clean. He loves his elect so much, he cleanses them from any adultery and makes her ready for the marriage.

The 'second' verse, I am assuming is this:

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. -Rev 19:7,8

You say that it is not stated outright that this group is the Church. But...it is not denied either. And, when we consider the white robes, and look back in Rev and other NT references to whom wears the white robes, the conclusion is obvious.

Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. -Revelation 3:4–5

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. -Revelation 6:11

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:14


Besides...here's the very, very twisty, thing in your logic. Rev 19 says "Saints", right? You say "this means NOT the Church". But you've just broken away from your own Dispensational system, and you're missing a rather obvious fact. Dispensationalist say that the Church is the Bride who attends the marriage supper, and that there is a clear distinction between 'church and saint'. You seem to have dismissed that. But, in dismissing that, you then refuse to see the obvious...if that's not so, then when we read "Saint" in Revelation, we are, in point of fact, reading 'Church'. How do I say that? Because these people are Christians. And what is a Christian? A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus and has had him wash away their sins. They've had the Holy Spirit come upon them and they are a new creation. In point of fact; they are now within the body of Christ....the church. So, when we read in Rev 19 that the bride has made herself ready by clothing herself in the pure white linen of the righteous deeds of the Saints...well, I hate to say it, but we're back to the literal again.
And as I said to brakelite: The fine linen is the righteous deeds of the Saint? It's rather odd, isn't it, since we know that really, our righteous deeds are only what Christ gives us grace to do. But, as Ephesians tells us, he HAS washed us, and made us without blemish. He has cleaned us and made us ready to stand firm in the face of persecution, suffering and even death. These are the white robes we have, when we pass from this life into the next, however it comes for us, still keeping our eyes on him. When we do that, we ARE the 5 wise virgins, and those people invited to the wedding banquet off the streets who do have the right attire. But...we are also the Bride, because we are clothed in find linen, and, as Paul says:

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. -2 Corinthians 11:2

"betrothed": ἁρμόζω - harmozó - I fit, join; mid: (the middle indicating deep personal interest) I espouse, betroth; mid: I take a wife, give in marriage.
 

Naomi25

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I am not attempting to convince you to accept my view, but simply to offer a different perspective. Here are some more texts to ponder....
When, after Christ's ministry began, the disciples of John came to him with the complaint that all men were following the new Teacher, John showed how clearly he understood his relation to the Messiah, and how gladly he welcomed the One for whom he had prepared the way.
“A man can receive nothing,” he said, “except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before Him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him; rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.”

Said the angel to John, “Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.” “He carried me away in the spirit,” says the prophet, “and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God.” [Revelation 21:9, 10.] Clearly, then, the bride represents the holy city, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. [Revelation 19:9.] If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride. Christ, as stated by the prophet Daniel, will receive from the Ancient of days in Heaven, “dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,” he will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of his kingdom, “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” [Daniel 7:14; Revelation 21:2.] Having received the kingdom, he will come in his glory, as King of kings, and Lord of lords, for the redemption of his people, who are to “sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob,” at his table in his kingdom, [Matthew 8:11; Luke 22:30.] to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

I think the imagery given us of the church being the bride is a symbolic inference to strengthen the sense of love Christ has for His redeemed. But the real union I see as that between Christ and His kingdom, represented by the holy city...what the holy city is adorned with is us...we are the jewels that make the bride acceptable.
In both the Old and New Testaments, marriage represents the loving sacred union that exists between Christ and His people. (Except those numerous occasions when Israel chose to adulterate herself with idols). To the mind of Jesus the gladness of the wedding pointed to the rejoicing of that day when He shall bring home His bride, the redeemed, to the Father's house. “As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.” “He will rejoice over thee with joy; ... He will joy over thee with singing.” Isaiah 62:5; Zephaniah 3:17. John the apostle wrote: “I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, ... saying, ... Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.” Revelation 19:6, 7.
So yes, I can certainly understand that there is plenty of evidence both ways, but I tend to side with the kingdom...at least for now.

Ha! Well, I'm very much the same...more just putting forth my understanding rather than trying to actively sway. We obviously just read it very differently, and that's cool! I think I'll be equally as happy to be a guest...I love a good wedding!
 

Waiting on him

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My perspective is he’s already consummated the marriage the minute he knew you. To the others he says I never knew you. I believe he’s preparing a house to receive us and any others he will know in the future