Believe, Then Receive

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Netchaplain

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It cannot be work then receive, for how can one work without having received that which is required to know and do the work? It can only be work after receiving, for works do not produce faith, but the inverse is true. The work involves, not our attaining nor retaining faith and salvation but manifesting they have been received, and this performed is by learning to “walk in the Spirit” (spiritual growth), which will be what manifests that we “live in the Spirit” (Gal 5:25).

Everything done apart from the Spirit and faith is man’s devising, which is used in distinguishing the difference between God’s ways in Scripture and ours according to what we believe Scripture teaches (all for our learning and understanding, which should always be in progression, as taught by the Spirit – 1 Co 2:13).

Manifesting faith can be accomplished in only one way—by agape love—that is, God loving others through those who “have the love of God” (Jhn 5:42; 1 Jhn 3:17). Believers strengthen one another through this love, and the lost are drawn by witnessing it (Jhn 13:35); and faith “works” solely “by love” (Gal 5:6). Hence, works are true only when intentioned with “love,” otherwise they are completely meaningless (1 Co 13:1-3).

The saint cannot not work (perform services) “for” anything, but does work because “of” something, which are saving grace and faith, and what more could be given since these are packaged with “all things that pertain to life and godliness?” The goal of faith is to grow first by believing these “things” and then understanding will eventually ensue, for growth in faith is not in explanations but in reckoning that all of God’s Word is not only true, but also that He applies it all to each accordingly!

Works manifests faith, and faith manifests grace, and it’s the “grace of God” which “brings salvation” (Tit 2:11). The grace of salvation does not admit in degrees but faith does, and it, only by increase of strength for it never decreases nor disappears, in order to avoid conflicting with the Lord’s ultimate declaration that, “Whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.”

Misunderstanding the purpose of works leaves one in self-dependence and hence, disappointment, due to the conception that our performance must meet a self-evaluated level that accords with where we think we should be concerning our service and manner of life.

There’s nothing that has not already been met in Christ concerning our eternal security and favor with the Father, thus any works attempted with the intention of addressing these established certainties are only “besetting weights” (Heb 12:1) which interfere with clarity of the conscience, but never from the possession of their promises.

- NC



“There is no way to a full abiding fellowship with our Father, but through the rent veil of the flesh; through a life with the old man crucified in the Lord Jesus. God be praised that the Holy Spirit ever dwells in us to keep the old man in the place of crucifixion and condemnation, and to give us progressive liberty from all the old.” -A.M.
 

Sword

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We all ready have every thing we need for every situation. You walk in faith, only faith pleases God Nothing else. As you walk you recive more faith. It grows.
 

Netchaplain

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Sword said:
We all ready have every thing we need for every situation. You walk in faith, only faith pleases God Nothing else. As you walk you recive more faith. It grows.
Hi Sword - Good reply and thanks! Once saved, redemption is never again an issue but faith always is, because the stronger the faith, the more effective the witness!

Blessings!
 

Sword

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Indeed. But we only walk in faith if and when we step out in faith. It wont grow unless you use it. No one has more than anyone else. some have used it and there for grown in experiance, of what God can and wants to do through You.
So as you step out lay hands on the sick realise that it actully works. Then continue to step out further.
 

Netchaplain

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Sword said:
Indeed. But we only walk in faith if and when we step out in faith.
True, which is learned to do more all the time, for "the just live by faith."

Sword said:
It wont grow unless you use it. No one has more than anyone else.
Agreed here, it's like muscles, every saint has them, but those which are exercised the most are most evident. I believe the growth and strength of faith has much to do with how we understanding the Word, which is the primary means (experience is second) used by the Spirit to impart and increase in the strength of faith.
 

Sword

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So what do we do that involves faith on a daily basis? I act in faith . Not on a daily basis. But I take the oppertunitys to walk in the faith at times as they present them selves. What do you think its is to use faith, and how can it grow. examples of useing faith please.
 

Netchaplain

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Sword said:
So what do we do that involves faith on a daily basis? I act in faith . Not on a daily basis. But I take the oppertunitys to walk in the faith at times as they present them selves. What do you think its is to use faith, and how can it grow. examples of useing faith please.
The Christian uses ("lives by") faith at all times when accepting all of God's Word as truth. Faith shows itself in works but exits in being God-dependent and this is what we grew in.
 

Sword

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Daily basis? what is faith in work?
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
It cannot be work then receive, for how can one work without having received that which is required to know and do the work? It can only be work after receiving, for works do not produce faith, but the inverse is true.

but in reckoning that all of God’s Word is not only true, but also that He applies it all to each accordingly!
This is very problematic, NC. Faith = our knowledge of God + our belief in His Word + OUR APPLICATION of what He has said. If we wait around doing nothing until God gives us the things He has promised, we will never receive them. That includes salvation. If God has given you the gospel and you have believed it (Acts 2:36-37), then you must apply it ("[You] Repent…" (2:38, the understood "You" of a command statement, right?).

Basically, works of the flesh are involved in sanctification but in salvation, it is a spiritual work, transaction, done between you and God. He invites you to come and you come.

NetChaplain said:
Manifesting faith can be accomplished in only one way—by agape love—that is, God loving others through those who “have the love of God” (Jhn 5:42; 1 Jhn 3:17). Believers strengthen one another through this love, and the lost are drawn by witnessing it (Jhn 13:35); and faith “works” solely “by love” (Gal 5:6). Hence, works are true only when intentioned with “love,” otherwise they are completely meaningless (1 Co 13:1-3).
The key here is Ro 8:2 — we "work" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which equals love. So you are right .. although it is something that can be feigned.

Ro 5:1-2 tells us that by the same way that we receive salvation, we have access to sanctification, "this grace wherein we stand." That is, we received salvation be believing the word of God and applying it in our lives which leads to more faith. I definitely don't like this idea that love is manifest without works that come from obedience to the Spirit.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
This is very problematic, NC. Faith = our knowledge of God + our belief in His Word + OUR APPLICATION of what He has said. If we wait around doing nothing until God gives us the things He has promised, we will never receive them.
God gives the desire for faith and we receive it because of this desire in asking and receiving Christ; and in all who receive faith He causes (works) them to live by it. After sufficient Scriptural knowledge and understanding, works will manifest faith. It all starts for us through faith and the works follow! Salvation is possess at the same time as faith.
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
God gives the desire for faith…
This is the Calvinist view that God gives us a new heart, regenerates us, so that we desire Him. Otherwise, we wouldn't. Well, that is false. We are accountable for our own desires, in this case, whether we are persuaded by the gospel or not.



and we receive it because of this desire in asking and receiving Christ; Salvation is possess at the same time as faith.
Again, this is the "Calvinist playbook." How, exactly, did you "receive faith"/salvation? You received it by receiving a new heart, right?

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
This is the Calvinist view that God gives us a new heart, regenerates us, so that we desire Him. Otherwise, we wouldn't. Well, that is false. We are accountable for our own desires, in this case, whether we are persuaded by the gospel or not.



Again, this is the "Calvinist playbook." How, exactly, did you "receive faith"/salvation? You received it by receiving a new heart, right?

skypair
Man on his own initiative and apart from God's influence cannot be good, for natural men are "defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
Man on his own initiative and apart from God's influence cannot be good, for natural men are "defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
No body is claiming that. In fact, we have naturally the "law of God written in [our] hearts, [our] consciences meanwhile bearing [us] witness…" (Ro 2:14-15). These laws God has written in our souls — we instinctively know them and know when we have done wrong. And beyond that, God reveals Himself in nature .. and also "influences" us by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now when we know God according to any of these, WE must acknowledge Him — but even that doesn't save.

BTW, that quote is speaking of the "defiled and unbelieving" — not referring to the "natural man." Titus 1:15 But do you see .. in you calling the natural man defiled, you actually testify that your conscience and mind has been defiled. You have a thought and a faith that sees no difference between the two.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
No body is claiming that.
Everyone I know claims that apart from God we are wicked, and of course Scripture claims it.


skypair said:
BTW, that quote is speaking of the "defiled and unbelieving" — not referring to the "natural man." Titus 1:15
The natural man is one who is not born again and is dominated by the sinful nature, which includes those who have a false "profession."
 

skypair

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NetChaplain said:
Everyone I know claims that apart from God we are wicked, and of course Scripture claims it.

The natural man is one who is not born again and is dominated by the sinful nature, which includes those who have a false "profession."
An infant is not "wicked." It is not "dominated" by any nature — it's soul is empty except for the instincts God gave it when He created it. We are His "offspring" spiritually and He is not to blame in any way for our sin.

skypair
 

Netchaplain

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skypair said:
An infant is not "wicked." It is not "dominated" by any nature — it's soul is empty except for the instincts God gave it when He created it. We are His "offspring" spiritually and He is not to blame in any way for our sin.

skypair
I believe God does not condemn anyone who is under a certain age, which is at His discretion! The young are born with the sinful nature and it will manifest the older they get. God never tempts one to evil, nor does man need temptation to be evil. Temptation just manifests what is present, like shaking a container to determine the contents.
 

COGTHW

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NetChaplain said:
I believe God does not condemn anyone who is under a certain age, which is at His discretion! The young are born with the sinful nature and it will manifest the older they get. God never tempts one to evil, nor does man need temptation to be evil. Temptation just manifests what is present, like shaking a container to determine the contents.
We all were born sinners

Lamentation 5:7 Our fathers have sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

We have to wash of the Adamic sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Jesus Christ was the Second Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.


You gotta be born of water and Spirit to strip away the first Adam and put on the second and last Adam.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

You gotta be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and call on Jesus to receive the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. HALLELUJAH Glory to God.
 

Netchaplain

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MOG411 said:
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
"Hi MO and thanks for your reply! My interpretation here is that "shaped in iniquity" intends the sense of that which was included (Adamic nature) was from the time I began to take shape. "In sin" intends "with sin."

Just the possession of the old man does not incur guilt. This comes from our response to it concerning God's Word about it. To be accountable to God for sin we must first be old enough to understand that we are sinners, and God's Word and nature shows us this. God has to inform man of his wrong before judging him, and the young are not sensitive to the seriousness of our sin nature as adults are.

The young are still mostly in humility than pride and is why we are to accept the Gospel with the same attributes. As Jesus said, “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

God has always shown mankind their wrong (Rom 5:13).

Blessings
 

COGTHW

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NetChaplain said:
"Hi MO and thanks for your reply! My interpretation here is that "shaped in iniquity" intends the sense of that which was included (Adamic nature) was from the time I began to take shape. "In sin" intends "with sin."

Just the possession of the old man does not incur guilt. This comes from our response to it concerning God's Word about it. To be accountable to God for sin we must first be old enough to understand that we are sinners, and God's Word and nature shows us this. God has to inform man of his wrong before judging him, and the young are not sensitive to the seriousness of our sin nature as adults are.

The young are still mostly in humility than pride and is why we are to accept the Gospel with the same attributes. As Jesus said, “If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

God has always shown mankind their wrong (Rom 5:13).

Blessings
Yeah, so according to Scriptures we must be born again, babies have to be in that because if they were innocent as we claim, why God didn't save them in the flood.?

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

All flesh, must be baptized babies also.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 

Netchaplain

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MOG411 said:
Yeah, so according to Scriptures we must be born again, babies have to be in that because if they were innocent as we claim, why God didn't save them in the flood.?

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

All flesh, must be baptized babies also.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
We'll just be in disagreement on this issue!