Biblical Mary

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BreadOfLife

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To anyone willing to listen . compare both my language and the langauge of Bread of life .
I go after and attack the doctrine . But who does he go after . Its not the doctrine . Its me .
Hypocrisy . that is all this hate speech stuff is . As are and as is the liberal agenda .
They want to silence our voices. Dont anyone fall for this ruse .
Nobody's trying to "silence" you - just expose you.
Your woeful ignorance does that.
This is how a nation gets turned into communism .
Sooooo, now, we're Communists??

Now I'm REALLY embarrassed for you . . .
 

Taken

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I absolutely did.
But, being lying anti-Catholic like your buddy @Ronald Nolette - you wouldn't recognize it if I beat you over the heat with it.

Here it is AGAIN for your edification . . .

:rolleyes:


Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.


2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?


LOL - may be the ignorant would conclude Michal had "CHILDEN" after she died...

Scripture says, she had no "singular CHILD" UNTIL the day of her death.

Not rocket science...The DAY Michal gave birth to HER ONLY ONE CHILD, was the same Day Michal Died!

Before her child was born Michal was Living...UNTIL the child was born then Michal died!

Doesn't prove your point!

was buried by God in the valley of Moab after his death. Deut. 34:6 explicitly states: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre UNTIL this present day.
Sooooo – did they find his grave after this??

Anyone DISCOVERING Mose's sepulcher AFTER THAT DAY is IRRELEVANT.
The author of Deuteronomy Simply stated to the day of Deuteronomy's written account, no one had KNOWN WHERE Mose's sepulcher was.

LOL - Weird question.

Doesn't prove our point!

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool."'

Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

LOL - Well uh... there is that thingy about Gods Wrath upon His enemies, and the Lord coming to Earth to SIT in His Kingdom, on HIS THRONE....guess He will no longer being sitting at the Lords Right Hand IN Heaven.

Again Doesn't prove your point!

LOL, you should have been born in the south...as a 5 year old....You would have fully understood ... Just you wait UNTIL your daddy gets home...

You have posted those scriptures eons ago, claiming YOU proved what UNTIL means...
It was a fail then, it's a fail now.
 

Taken

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And until YOU stop LYING about what Catholics believe and teach - I will continue to refer to you as "anti-Catholic" because THAT'S what Anti-Catholics DO.
They LIE - just like YOU.

PS - Point me to ONE SINGLE LIE that I have stated - and I will apologize.
For the record - I don't lie on this forum.

LOL :p
 

BreadOfLife

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LOL
Yep you bow before idols,

Don't have idols, statutes, photos, on my mantle or walls....thus obviously do not bow down before them.....as you yet again make a FALSE ACCUSATION.

Homework IS discovering knowledge.
Obviously Homework to you means just making up junk.
NO wedding pics?
NO parent's portraits?
NO children's portraits?
NO Driver's License?
NO artwork in your house?
NO magazines?
NO illustrated Books?

Like I've always said - you anti-Catholics are as pathetically dishonest as they come . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Cunning trickster.....full well knowing, that would get them banned!
How would pointing out a lie get someone banned?
I point out the lies of anti-Catholics here on a DAILY basis . . .
 

Taken

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NO wedding pics? NOPE
NO parent's portraits? NOPE
NO children's portraits? NOPE
NO Driver's License? On my wall, mantle...LOL, NOPE
NO artwork in your house? NOPE
NO magazines? NOPE
NO illustrated Books? On my wall, mantle...LOL NOPE.

Like I've always said - you anti-Catholics are as pathetically dishonest as they come . . .

We are quite familiar with what you always say....Junk you think up in your own CARNAL MIND and try to pass that off as others beliefs.

Shameful.
 

BreadOfLife

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ALREADY proved.... You made a statement as a fact... and your fact is False.
You ALREADY proved that you don't have . . .
Wedding pics?
Parent's portraits?
Children's portraits?
Driver's License?
Artwork in your house?
Magazines?
Illustrated Books?


Ummmmm, HOW can you "prove" that unless you walk me through your house??
You've gotten SO used to LYING that it just becomes second nature to you . . .
 

Brakelite

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YOU are the one making the case that Mary had "other children" based on the word "firstborn" - and now you're denying it??

YOU
implied that it was wrong to have ONE child because of the mandate to be "fruitful" and "multiply".
I simply asked YOU if the following Sarah and Hannah were evil for having ONE child each - their "FIRSTBORN".

There is absolutely NO LIE here.
Ask ANY Jewish scholar what "firstborn" means - and they will tell you what Scripture says (Exod. 13:12, 12, Luke 2:23):
"The one who opens the womb of the mother."

That's ALL it means - and does NOT mandate that other children follow..
First, I don't know if Mary had sex and bore children after Jesus. What I do know from scripture is that there were some described as Jesus' brethren. Brothers... And sisters... But they couldn't have been spiritual brethren as some suggest because they didn't believe in their brother. They thought He was a hoax. They believed the Pharisees. They likely didn't half their lives mocking Jesus...ha! You think you're better than us!! Holier than is?? Do you ever get taught by the Rabbis? What do you know??? Nothing! Etc etc. I know this because their descendants are still doing that today on this firm. But anyway. I still can't prove they are blood brothers, the Bible simply doesn't say so.
But what I don't agree with is your contention that firstborn cannot mean there were others that would be like having a bunch of people in a race, and because one was declared first, therefore there can't be others following. Thing is, it can work both ways. In this instance, and I'm this context, there literally no proof either way.
 

Taken

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You ALREADY proved that you don't have . . .
Wedding pics?
Parent's portraits?
Children's portraits?
Driver's License?
Artwork in your house?
Magazines?
Illustrated Books?


Ummmmm, HOW can you "prove" that

No need for me to prove what YOU SAID.
However I can imagine you have your mantle and walls cluttered with junk you bow down to, esteem with pride and worship.
Do you still have your dashboard Mary?
 

Illuminator

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First, I don't know if Mary had sex and bore children after Jesus. What I do know from scripture is that there were some described as Jesus' brethren. Brothers... And sisters... But they couldn't have been spiritual brethren as some suggest because they didn't believe in their brother. They thought He was a hoax. They believed the Pharisees. They likely didn't half their lives mocking Jesus...ha! You think you're better than us!! Holier than is?? Do you ever get taught by the Rabbis? What do you know??? Nothing! Etc etc. I know this because their descendants are still doing that today on this firm. But anyway. I still can't prove they are blood brothers, the Bible simply doesn't say so.
But what I don't agree with is your contention that firstborn cannot mean there were others that would be like having a bunch of people in a race, and because one was declared first, therefore there can't be others following. Thing is, it can work both ways. In this instance, and I'm this context, there literally no proof either way.
The difficulty for the Protestant critique here is that the supposed Scriptural evidence for "Mary's other children" is only an apparent, not a real, contradiction of the Church's tradition. For, in fact, every text adduced to "prove" Mary had other natural-born children encounters some fatal difficulty when we look closely.

So, for instance, the attempt to find absolute, ironclad proof of sexual relations between Joseph and Mary in Matthew's remark that Joseph "knew her not until she had borne a son" suffers from the fatal ambiguity of the word "until." The whole value of the passage as an argument against Mary's virginity depends on some supposed "rule" that "until" means "the same before, but different afterward." But if we try to apply this "rule," we wind up with strange results. Thus, Deuteronomy 1:31 tells Israel, "The LORD your God bore you, as a man bears his son, in all the way that you went until you came to this place." Does the author really mean to say that God would henceforth not be carrying Israel?

Likewise, Deuteronomy 9:7 says, "From the day you came out of the land of Egypt, until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD." Does the sacred author mean to imply that Israel magically stopped being rebellious after that? Or again, John the Baptist "was in the wilderness until the day of his manifestation to Israel" (Lk 1:80, emphasis added). Does Luke therefore mean to imply that once John appeared to Israel, he never lived in the desert again? No. Similarly, neither is Matthew saying anything beyond, "Mary conceived Jesus in virginity." He is making no implications whatever about any sexual relations between Mary and Joseph.

In the same way, the texts concerning Jesus' brothers and sisters were consistently read by the early Church with the understanding that the apostles had taught that Jesus was the only son of the Blessed Virgin. And once we get past our modern prejudice that "they simply can't mean that," we find to our surprise that they easily can.

Take James. Paul describes him as the "brother of the Lord," but James himself does not. Why not? And even more oddly, Jude describes himself as "a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James" (Jude 1). If Jude is a sibling of Jesus, why does he talk in this weird way?

The answer comes from a close reading of the Gospels. Matthew and Mark name the following as "brothers" of Jesus: James, Joseph (or "Joses," depending on the manuscript), Simon, and Judas (i.e., "Jude"). But Matthew 27:56 says that at the cross were Mary Magdalene and "Mary the mother of James and Joseph," whom he significantly calls "the other Mary" (Matthew 27:61) (i.e., the Mary who was not Mary the Mother of Jesus). John concurs with this, telling us that "standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25, emphasis added).

In short, James, Jude, and their brothers are the children of "the other Mary," the wife of Clopas, not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. This is further supported in an almost accidental way by the early Church historian Eusebius, who routinely records the succession of bishops in the major churches of antiquity. After recording his account of the martyrdom of James, the first bishop of Jerusalem (commonly referred to as "the brother of the Lord"), he tells us that James's successor was none other than "Symeon, son of Clopas." Why choose Symeon/Simon for the next bishop? Because James, the "brother of the Lord," and Symeon/Simon were the sibling children of Clopas and the "other Mary," and we are looking at a kind of dynastic succession.

Interestingly, this "other Mary" is described as the Blessed Virgin's "sister." Is it really possible that two siblings were both named Mary? Probably not. Rather it's far more likely they were "sisters" in the same sense Jesus and the other Mary's son, James, were "brothers." That is, they were cousins or some other extended relation. And, indeed, we find Jewish culture could play fast and loose with the terms "brother" and "sister." For instance, Lot, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Gen 11:27-31), is called Abraham's 'âch ("brother") in Genesis 14:14-16 (which is exactly how the translators of both the New International Version and the King James Version render it). And these English-speaking translators are simply following the example of the ancient Jewish translators of the Septuagint version of Genesis, who also rendered the Hebrew word as adelphos: the same Greek word that is also used to describe Jesus' relatives.

So the biblical evidence for siblings of Jesus slips steadily away until all that is left is the school of criticism that argues that, since Jesus is called the "firstborn" (Lk 2:7), this implied other children for Mary. But in fact the term "firstborn" was used mainly to express the privileged position of the that child, whether or not other children were born. That is why a Greek tomb at Tel el Yaoudieh bears this inscription for a mother who died in childbirth: "In the pain of delivering my firstborn child, destiny brought me to the end of life."

Beyond that, all the critic of perpetual virginity has left is just the gut sensation that "it's weird for a normal married couple to practice celibacy." And that might be an argument -- if Joseph and Mary were a normal married couple and not the parents of the God of Israel.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/biblical-evidence-for-the-perpetual-virginity-of-mary/
 

BreadOfLife

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First, I don't know if Mary had sex and bore children after Jesus. What I do know from scripture is that there were some described as Jesus' brethren. Brothers... And sisters... But they couldn't have been spiritual brethren as some suggest because they didn't believe in their brother. They thought He was a hoax. They believed the Pharisees. They likely didn't half their lives mocking Jesus...ha! You think you're better than us!! Holier than is?? Do you ever get taught by the Rabbis? What do you know??? Nothing! Etc etc. I know this because their descendants are still doing that today on this firm. But anyway. I still can't prove they are blood brothers, the Bible simply doesn't say so.
But what I don't agree with is your contention that firstborn CANNOT mean there were others that would be like having a bunch of people in a race, and because one was declared first, therefore there can't be others following. Thing is, it can work both ways. In this instance, and I'm this context, there literally no proof either way.
First of all - it's actually refreshing to speak to an anti-Catholic who admits that the Bible does NOT state that these "brethren" (adelphoi) of Jesus were uterine siblings.

Secondly - I never said that they were "spiritual" brethren. In fact, the conclusion that Scripture brings us to is that they were some sort of relation - but NOT uterine siblings. They were the children of the other Mary standing near the cross, who is the wife of Clopa/Alphaeus (Matt. 27:5, Mark 15:40, John 19:25).

Finally - your last claim is FALSE. I NEVER said that "firstborn" implies that there CANNOT be other children.
I said that it does not mandate that there are other children. I also included Sarah, mother of Isaac and Hannah, mother of Samuel as examples of biblical women who only had ONE child because of @Taken's idiotic implication that having only one child went against God' command to be "fruitful and multiply".
Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist is another example.
 

BreadOfLife

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No need for me to prove what YOU SAID.
However I can imagine you have your mantle and walls cluttered with junk you bow down to, esteem with pride and worship.
Do you still have your dashboard Mary?
Hey I'm NOT the one asking you to prove it.
YOU claimed that you proved it.

From post #1211:
"ALREADY proved.... "

Your foot is in your mouth because YOU put it there - NOT me . . .
 

Brakelite

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First of all - it's actually refreshing to speak to an anti-Catholic who admits that the Bible does NOT state that these "brethren" (adelphoi) of Jesus were uterine siblings.

Secondly - I never said that they were "spiritual" brethren. In fact, the conclusion that Scripture brings us to is that they were some sort of relation - but NOT uterine siblings. They were the children of the other Mary standing near the cross, who is the wife of Clopa/Alphaeus (Matt. 27:5, Mark 15:40, John 19:25).

Finally - your last claim is FALSE. I NEVER said that "firstborn" implies that there CANNOT be other children.
I said that it does not mandate that there are other children. I also included Sarah, mother of Isaac and Hannah, mother of Samuel as examples of biblical women who only had ONE child because of @Taken's idiotic implication that having only one child went against God' command to be "fruitful and multiply".
Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist is another example.
What would be refreshing is for you to stop calling people anti Catholic just because they disagree with your theology.
What would be refreshing is for you to say, you are mistaken, instead of you are a liar, or your last claim is false. A little grace grace a long way. Okay, I'm glad to be wrong. We both agree then. Although there is a possibility which I tend to favor, that Jesus' brothers and sisters were Joseph's children from a former marriage, being a widower when he married Mary. I don't see the connection to another Mary.