Biblical Salvation

[Tong2020]

God foreordained (according to foreknowledge) unto condemnation those who would preach grace as a license for immorality (Jude 1:3-4, NIV).

I have already pointed out that in the Greek texts, that is not what Jude 1:4 denotes. The point in Jude is that certain ungodly men who were written and spoken of long ago, have crept in unnoticed, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. That there are such men, whose end is condemnation. Not that this scriptures speaks of men created by God for condemnation. The idea that God creates people for condemnation goes against the nature of God. But not to say that such is not true because by reason of that, but really because scriptures does not say anything to that effect about God.

Tong
R2573

 

[justbyfaith]

Verse?

Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I have already pointed out that in the Greek texts, that is not what Jude 1:4 denotes. The point in Jude is that certain ungodly men who were written and spoken of long ago, have crept in unnoticed,

That basically means that they were foreordained to this condemnation.

Not that this scriptures speaks of men created by God for condemnation.

Of course; because their condemnation is foreordained according to the foreknowledge that they would preach grace as a license for immorality; which is their choice.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I have already pointed out that in the Greek texts, that is not what Jude 1:4 denotes. The point in Jude is that certain ungodly men who were written and spoken of long ago, have crept in unnoticed,

That basically means that they were foreordained to this condemnation.

No it really does not, unless one makes it out to be.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not that this scriptures speaks of men created by God for condemnation.

Of course; because their condemnation is foreordained according to the foreknowledge that they would preach grace as a license for immorality; which is their choice.

If there is any foreknowledge, it does not make for their predestination to condemnation, but does make for a prophecy to be told. For their condemnation is not because they were predestined, but because of their sin. It really makes no additional point to predestine their condemnation, something that is a natural result of their sin.

Tong
R2582

 

[justbyfaith]

No it really does not, unless one makes it out to be.

It really is; because I do make it out to be (that).

If there is any foreknowledge, it does not make for their predestination to condemnation, but does make for a prophecy to be told. For their condemnation is not because they were predestined, but because of their sin. It really makes no additional point to predestine their condemnation, something that is a natural result of their sin.

It should be clear that God is the One who condemns them for their sin; and that He "wrote about this condemnation long ago"...

So, God somehow knew that they would commit these sins deserving of condemnation and who they were who would commit these sins.

Their condemnation was "foreordained"...and God is the One who will condemn them....that denotes predestination.

You may have to deny that the kjv is a valid translation in order to keep your position.

Even with your preferred translation, the meaning is not lost to us.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
No it really does not, unless one makes it out to be.

It really is; because I do make it out to be (that).

Yes, as you said, it really is because you make it out to be, not because scriptures make it out to be.

Tong2020 said: ↑
If there is any foreknowledge, it does not make for their predestination to condemnation, but does make for a prophecy to be told. For their condemnation is not because they were predestined, but because of their sin. It really makes no additional point to predestine their condemnation, something that is a natural result of their sin.

It should be clear that God is the One who condemns them for their sin; and that He "wrote about this condemnation long ago"...

So, God somehow knew that they would commit these sins deserving of condemnation and who they were who would commit these sins.

Their condemnation was "foreordained"...and God is the One who will condemn them....that denotes predestination.

You may have to deny that the kjv is a valid translation in order to keep your position.

Even with your preferred translation, the meaning is not lost to us.

Definitely, God knew that they will commit those sins and who they were. Not only them really, but all men. Now that is foreknowledge, not predestination.

Regarding your KJV argument, I have already shown you, so I will not go through again.

Tong
R2593

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, as you said, it really is because you make it out to be, not because scriptures make it out to be.

Even the holy scriptures make it out to be as I perceive it, especially if you accept that the kjv is a valid translation.

And even if you don't, the meaning is not lost in other translations, that God foreordained these wicked men to condemnation.

Now that is foreknowledge, not predestination.

Predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29 (kjv), 1 Peter 1:2 (kjv)).

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, as you said, it really is because you make it out to be, not because scriptures make it out to be.

Even the holy scriptures make it out to be as I perceive it, especially if you accept that the kjv is a valid translation.

And even if you don't, the meaning is not lost in other translations, that God foreordained these wicked men to condemnation.

Here are some translations.

GNT For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of our God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received.

ISV For some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. They were written about long ago as being deserving of this condemnation because they are ungodly. They turn the grace of our God into uncontrollable lust and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus the Messiah.

NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

NLT I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now that is foreknowledge, not predestination.

Predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29 (kjv), 1 Peter 1:2 (kjv)).

The predestination there is with regards salvation, not condemnation.

Tong
R2597

 

[amigo de christo]

That contradicts the fact that the Bible speaks of God BLOTTING OUT (removing) names from the Book of Life. If they were already absent to begin with, there would be no need for blotting out. So that shoots down your theory.

Unless what some of us , as well as the apostels , has been saying is true . One must continue faithful to Christ unto the end .
WHEN That warning was given , IT was GIVEN to a church . Its why paul also would say in many places a word called IF .
IF YE continue , IF you dont be moved away from the hope of the gospel . IF . If holds a meaning now .
Like JESUS said to IF you continue in me . TO those WHO ALREADY BELEIVED .

 

[amigo de christo]

Let the Glorious name of JESUS CHRIST be praised .

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Unless what some of us , as well as the apostels , has been saying is true . One must continue faithful to Christ unto the end .
WHEN That warning was given , IT was GIVEN to a church . Its why paul also would say in many places a word called IF .
IF YE continue , IF you dont be moved away from the hope of the gospel . IF . If holds a meaning now .
Like JESUS said to IF you continue in me . TO those WHO ALREADY BELEIVED .

Are you saying that a truly born again believer can become un born again?

 

[amigo de christo]

Are you saying that a truly born again believer can become un born again?

I am saying what JESUS and paul , peter and others said . That if we dont continue in Christ to the end , dont expect to hear Well done .
expect these words , DEPART FROM ME . I am saying if we become a part of the all inclusive false gospel
we no longer are part of the true gospel . We have been moved away into a lie and our end will be horrendous .
Let no man be moved away from the hope of the true gospel . WHICH IS YE MUST believe in CHRIST . You must confess Him by mouth
and believe from the heart that GOD has rose Him from the dead to be saved .
In other words , DONT be saying HEY JESUS IS MY WAY , but buddists and other religions have thier own way to GOD .
IF ya do , PREPARE TO HEAR I NEVER KNEW YOU . I better not see one soul going in that direction . Though many are .

 

[justbyfaith]

Here are some translations.

GNT For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of our God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received.

ISV For some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. They were written about long ago as being deserving of this condemnation because they are ungodly. They turn the grace of our God into uncontrollable lust and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus the Messiah.

NIV For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

NLT I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

So, is this translation therefore invalid,

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The predestination there is with regards salvation, not condemnation.

In Jude 1:4, the ordination is to condemnation "before of old"...

Now, are you going to say that this is according to predetermination rather than foreknowledge?

 

[Enoch111]

One must continue faithful to Christ unto the end .

How would you know that you have continued faithful? How would you know if you have not dotted all your i's and crossed all your t's? If that was indeed the plan of salvation then absolutely no one would know for a fact that they are saved. But the apostle John tells us that we can know with absolute certainty that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us [PAST TENSE] eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life;[PRESENT TENSE] and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know [PRESENT TENSE] that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13)

So my friend, you are seriously misunderstanding God's plan of salvation. Salvation (eternal life) is A GIFT freely given by God through His grace because Christ Himself has paid the fully penalty for our sins, then given us the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life. Plus ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS in Christ Jesus. He is in us and we are in Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

God and you know whether you have a genuine faith in Him.

If you are truly born again, His Spirit bears witness with your spirit that you are a child of God (Romans 8:16).

 

[amigo de christo]

How would you know that you have continued faithful? How would you know if you have not dotted all your i's and crossed all your t's? If that was indeed the plan of salvation then absolutely no one would know for a fact that they are saved. But the apostle John tells us that we can know with absolute certainty that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us [PAST TENSE] eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life;[PRESENT TENSE] and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know [PRESENT TENSE] that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13)

So my friend, you are seriously misunderstanding God's plan of salvation. Salvation (eternal life) is A GIFT freely given by God through His grace because Christ Himself has paid the fully penalty for our sins, then given us the gift of the Holy Spirit and the gift of eternal life. Plus ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS in Christ Jesus. He is in us and we are in Him.

You mean HOW DO I KNOW I AM SAVED . Cause i KNOW I am . CAUSE I FULLY BELIEVE THAT JESUS ALREADY DID EVERYTHING
for me to be saved . Let us hold the faith firm to the end . FAITH IN THE GLORIOUS KING JESUS .
IN the ONE true gospel and let none be moved away into this other false gospel .
The one which implies that if muslims and any other religoin , even atheists if they do good works and love
they are saved and already know GOD . cause that is a crock pot lie . AND if we let folks believe that lie
we are partakers of a lie . AND we gonna be told at our end , DEPART I NEVER KNEW YOU .
WE must hold to the one true gospel . GIVE that HOPE . Never give false hope . POINT TO JESUS as the only means of salvation .
And that if one believes not they will indeed be damned . POINT them TO JESUS , not to a lie .

 

[Tong2020]

So, is this translation therefore invalid,

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



In Jude 1:4, the ordination is to condemnation "before of old"...

Now, are you going to say that this is according to predetermination rather than foreknowledge?

I won’t be riding along in circles this time.

Tong
R2600

 

[Tong2020]

I am saying what JESUS and paul , peter and others said . That if we dont continue in Christ to the end , dont expect to hear Well done .
expect these words , DEPART FROM ME . I am saying if we become a part of the all inclusive false gospel
we no longer are part of the true gospel . We have been moved away into a lie and our end will be horrendous .
Let no man be moved away from the hope of the true gospel . WHICH IS YE MUST believe in CHRIST . You must confess Him by mouth
and believe from the heart that GOD has rose Him from the dead to be saved .
In other words , DONT be saying HEY JESUS IS MY WAY , but buddists and other religions have thier own way to GOD .
IF ya do , PREPARE TO HEAR I NEVER KNEW YOU . I better not see one soul going in that direction . Though many are .

The faith that comes from God is one that abides and continues. It comes with is the power from whom it comes from. But there is faith that comes from man. In contrast to faith that comes from God, faith that comes from man have no power that comes from God. It is one that has no power, even power to abide and continue.

What faith do we have? Is it that which comes from God or only that comes from ourselves?

Tong
R2601

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that the principle in Mark 9:24 indicates to us that we can have a faith that is of us and that it can lead to a faith that is from God.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.



That basically means that they were foreordained to this condemnation.



Of course; because their condemnation is foreordained according to the foreknowledge that they would preach grace as a license for immorality; which is their choice.

Rev. 22:19 says any man. Not any believer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rev. 22:19 says any man. Not any believer.

Only believers have their names written in the Book of Life.

Unbelievers are "condemned already" (John 3:18).