Body of Christ never mentioned in Revelation, but The Bride is.

[VictoryinJesus]

That is incorrect. Please read the passage from Revelation 19 carefully. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit as the Bride.

Revelation 19:5-7 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. [6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. [7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Are you born of New Jerusalem? Are you born of the Spirit from above? if you are born of New Jerusalem or to say born of the Spirit ...how then is there no mention the Holy Spirit as the bride?

 

[mjrhealth]

Well Base,
That's allot to chew on there! Funny thing, back in the early 90's, I used to think that the forbidden fruit was sexual relations, nobody took me seriously, many do not today no matter what I say, lol. That's okay because sometimes I don't understand myself. I still wonder why God would have put such temptation in that perfect garden, weather it be sex or anything else...yes, I know...His plan :)
Thank you for all of the input and it is interesting, to be sure.
God Bless!

Here is a gotcha for you, you know this sex before marriage thing, When a man puts his seed in the woman, well when we become Christians, God puts His seed in us, the bride of Christ and we become pregnant with His Spirit, Just as Mary did, when she said,

Luk_1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

So here we are pregnant, just as Mary was, when does the wedding take place for Christ and His bride, His church???

Gen_2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

and the enemy has being trying so hard to separate the two for so long.

Mar_10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[Stumpmaster]

So the question I always ask is, Is there something in the Bible that let's me know it's not literal, and if so, something that tells me what it means?

Otherwise, aren't we all making our best guess and nothing more?

Much love!

Hi marks, You make a good point. I have come across folk who really struggle with things abstract and metaphorical in the Bible, mainly due to unfamiliarity with the context and either an ingrained cultural and religious bias that promotes a literal mindset, or a gnostic interpretation that tries to spiritualise everything to the extremes of abstraction.

It is true that Jesus is the Good Shepherd, but he was not literally a shepherd while on earth, so the term Good Shepherd is a metaphor. A metaphor "carries the meaning across" so we are to understand that while the qualities and behaviour of Jesus are "shepherdlike", He did not literally spend His time herding sheep while on earth.

Next a problem arises with some who are new to Scripture and young in the faith, when they have the concept of Jesus as the Good Shepherd firmly in their grasp but then discover He is also the Lamb of God. Now they are in trouble trying to figure out how Jesus can be both the Good Shepherd and the Lamb of God.

Similarly, I have listened to preachers murder the text trying to reconcile several metaphors for God's People with a literal interpretation, as if the Bible is somehow at fault describing the future residents of heaven as both a city and a bride, not willing to accept the metaphorical interpretation. A picture paints a thousand words so in Revelation it is expediant for John to see God's People represented in a familiar picture, that of a holy city, and for another familiar concept, that of a bride prepared and decorated for her husband, to also be used. While the language is metaphorical, the reality of God's People dwelling with Him in COMPLETE PERFECTION FOREVER is literal (see verses below).

Rev 21:1-3
(1) Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
(2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(3) And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Rev 21:27
(27) But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Victory mentioned " a pecking order" ...it is not God who decides that..but WE DO!!

(This is a much hated truth. )

not sure I understand Helen. This thread has confused me. a few questions. the whole pecking order entering in is alarming. Do you mean it enters into the New Heaven and New earth?

2 Timothy 2:19-22 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. [20] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
^to me that says the wood and earth is that old man (that first born natural man) hay and stubble. but if purged with fire (buy of Me gold tried in the fire) and born again of Spirit “he shall be a vessel unto Honour, sanctified, ...prepared unto every good work.” Of the promise seed “having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his.”

does works of the flesh make it through the Fire? Do any of our own works make it through the fire? The wood, hay, stubble perishes. That the outward man perishes. Isaiah 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

I’ve understood it (not saying it is right) to say only that inward man born of God renewed daily, refined, remains. “Fruits of the Spirit”

....he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

If he throughly purges his floor then how does man bring in any pecking order or anything not attributed to Christ in Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

what is outside of the city when “he burns up the chaff with unquenchable fire,” (as the earth is His and the fullness thereof) and has put down all rule and power and authority, and all enemies under his feet? 1 Corinthians 15:24-26?

 

[Enoch111]

Are you born of New Jerusalem? Are you born of the Spirit from above? if you are born of New Jerusalem or to say born of the Spirit ...how then is there no mention the Holy Spirit as the bride?

Since you failed to see "the Holy Spirit" written in the passages you quoted, that is sufficient evidence.

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the three divine Persons within the ONE Godhead, it would be A VIOLATION OF BIBLE TRUTH AND SPIRITUAL TRUTH to call the Holy Spirit the Bride of Christ.

The Church is both the Body of Christ (denoting eternal union) and the Bride of Christ (denoting eternal intimate love and fellowship), and those are spiritual truths and divine metaphors.

The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the saints of God (the Church), and therefore it is personified as a bride adorned for her husband. But the inhabitants of the city are the Bride, not the structure (which you do not even believe is a reality).

 

[Episkopos]

Since you failed to see "the Holy Spirit" written in the passages you quoted, that is sufficient evidence.

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the three divine Persons within the ONE Godhead, it would be A VIOLATION OF BIBLE TRUTH AND SPIRITUAL TRUTH to call the Holy Spirit the Bride of Christ.

The Church is both the Body of Christ (denoting eternal union) and the Bride of Christ (denoting eternal intimate love and fellowship), and those are spiritual truths and divine metaphors.

The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the saints of God (the Church), and therefore it is personified as a bride adorned for her husband. But the inhabitants of the city are the Bride, not the structure (which you do not even believe is a reality).

So who are in the "nations of they who are saved" ? No amount of dogmatic ideology (neo-political conservatism) that you like so much can explain this.

 

[Waiting on him]

Since you failed to see "the Holy Spirit" written in the passages you quoted, that is sufficient evidence.

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the three divine Persons within the ONE Godhead, it would be A VIOLATION OF BIBLE TRUTH AND SPIRITUAL TRUTH to call the Holy Spirit the Bride of Christ.

The Church is both the Body of Christ (denoting eternal union) and the Bride of Christ (denoting eternal intimate love and fellowship), and those are spiritual truths and divine metaphors.

The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the saints of God (the Church), and therefore it is personified as a bride adorned for her husband. But the inhabitants of the city are the Bride, not the structure (which you do not even believe is a reality).

John 3:6 KJV
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This verse here tells me who the mother is.
If you want to argue that your my mother then that’s up to you.

Tecarta Bible

 

[Waiting on him]

Mark 2:19 KJV
[19] And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

Here we’re told who is the bridegroom, and who are the children (sons of God).

Now once again, how many times in the Old Testament is a man required to raise children with his dead brothers widow?
Tecarta Bible
And why is this so significant?

 

[Waiting on him]

Why was God angry with Onnan when he withdrew and cast his seed on the ground?

 

[bbyrd009]

So the question I always ask is, Is there something in the Bible that let's me know it's not literal, and if so, something that tells me what it means?

Otherwise, aren't we all making our best guess and nothing more?

Much love!

those def strike me as good Qs, the Qs even. Imo there is something in the Bible that lets us know, and any one who wants to should not stop believing that 144000 literal citizens from the reconstructed State of Israel, 12000 from each tribe, are what are in view there, in that spiritual vision of the, supposedly, future, right?

However imo Scripture is constructed in such a way that one will have another passage or passages that are being treated differently by that one, rather than the same, in order to comport with their desires or beliefs, thus revealing any hypocrisy, a couple even spring to mind.

As to all of us making our best guess in the moment, really isnt that all we are doing now?
How did we all start singing "When We All Get to Heaven" when few there are who find it the kingdom of heaven is within you where I am going you cannot come no one has ever gone up to heaven? Et al?

seems to me like "best guess" would be an awesome and much less pagan improvement?
what is it?

 

[bbyrd009]

Now once again, how many times in the Old Testament is a man required to raise children with his dead brothers widow?
Tecarta Bible
And why is this so significant?

ive read some commentaries on this, and tried to trackback to your asking it the first time, but i dont know whether to follow ViJ or pEnoch lol. Anyway, i would love to know/get a better understanding there, if you reply.

the below might explain why i find most commentaries inadequate, from the Abarim "Onan,"
"
The name Onan in the Bible

The one and only Onan in the Bible is the infamous younger brother of Er, and son of Judah and the unnamed daughter of Shua (Genesis 38:4).

Judah married Er to Tamar, but Er was "evil in the sight of YHWH," and so he died. But evil or not, Er needed offspring and Judah evoked the custom that later would become the levirate law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6; levirate has nothing to do with Levite; it comes from the Latin word levir, meaning brother-in-law). It stipulates that when a man dies childless, his brother is required to impregnate his widow. The thus first-born son would carry on the name of the deceased man.

Onan appears to have had no problem with decking Tamar, but at the moment supreme he "wasted his seed on the ground". That displeased the Lord as well and Onan consequently followed his brother into the grave (Genesis 38:10).

Judah promised Tamar to his third son Shelah, but forgot all about it. When she realized she'd been duped, she tricked Judah into impregnating her. The result was the twins Perez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29-30)..."

 

[Waiting on him]

ive read some commentaries on this, and tried to trackback to your asking it the first time, but i dont know whether to follow ViJ or pEnoch lol. Anyway, i would love to know/get a better understanding there, if you reply.

the below might explain why i find most commentaries inadequate, from the Abarim "Onan,"
"
The name Onan in the Bible

The one and only Onan in the Bible is the infamous younger brother of Er, and son of Judah and the unnamed daughter of Shua (Genesis 38:4).

Judah married Er to Tamar, but Er was "evil in the sight of YHWH," and so he died. But evil or not, Er needed offspring and Judah evoked the custom that later would become the levirate law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6; levirate has nothing to do with Levite; it comes from the Latin word levir, meaning brother-in-law). It stipulates that when a man dies childless, his brother is required to impregnate his widow. The thus first-born son would carry on the name of the deceased man.

Onan appears to have had no problem with decking Tamar, but at the moment supreme he "wasted his seed on the ground". That displeased the Lord as well and Onan consequently followed his brother into the grave (Genesis 38:10).

Judah promised Tamar to his third son Shelah, but forgot all about it. When she realized she'd been duped, she tricked Judah into impregnating her. The result was the twins Perez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29-30)..."

ive read some commentaries on this, and tried to trackback to your asking it the first time, but i dont know whether to follow ViJ or pEnoch lol. Anyway, i would love to know/get a better understanding there, if you reply.

the below might explain why i find most commentaries inadequate, from the Abarim "Onan,"
"
The name Onan in the Bible

The one and only Onan in the Bible is the infamous younger brother of Er, and son of Judah and the unnamed daughter of Shua (Genesis 38:4).

Judah married Er to Tamar, but Er was "evil in the sight of YHWH," and so he died. But evil or not, Er needed offspring and Judah evoked the custom that later would become the levirate law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6; levirate has nothing to do with Levite; it comes from the Latin word levir, meaning brother-in-law). It stipulates that when a man dies childless, his brother is required to impregnate his widow. The thus first-born son would carry on the name of the deceased man.

Onan appears to have had no problem with decking Tamar, but at the moment supreme he "wasted his seed on the ground". That displeased the Lord as well and Onan consequently followed his brother into the grave (Genesis 38:10).

Judah promised Tamar to his third son Shelah, but forgot all about it. When she realized she'd been duped, she tricked Judah into impregnating her. The result was the twins Perez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29-30)..."

I’m not sure Byrd, I wish I had full clarity myself. His seed remains in us, what is redemption?

I can’t help but believe that both Johns saw His bride descending on Him, but my mind is going in a million different directions this morning

 

[Waiting on him]

ive read some commentaries on this, and tried to trackback to your asking it the first time, but i dont know whether to follow ViJ or pEnoch lol. Anyway, i would love to know/get a better understanding there, if you reply.

the below might explain why i find most commentaries inadequate, from the Abarim "Onan,"
"
The name Onan in the Bible

The one and only Onan in the Bible is the infamous younger brother of Er, and son of Judah and the unnamed daughter of Shua (Genesis 38:4).

Judah married Er to Tamar, but Er was "evil in the sight of YHWH," and so he died. But evil or not, Er needed offspring and Judah evoked the custom that later would become the levirate law (Deuteronomy 25:5-6; levirate has nothing to do with Levite; it comes from the Latin word levir, meaning brother-in-law). It stipulates that when a man dies childless, his brother is required to impregnate his widow. The thus first-born son would carry on the name of the deceased man.

Onan appears to have had no problem with decking Tamar, but at the moment supreme he "wasted his seed on the ground". That displeased the Lord as well and Onan consequently followed his brother into the grave (Genesis 38:10).

Judah promised Tamar to his third son Shelah, but forgot all about it. When she realized she'd been duped, she tricked Judah into impregnating her. The result was the twins Perez and Zerah (Genesis 38:29-30)..."

I do appreciate the commentary. It’s interesting Jesus comes out of the tribe of Judah.

 

[Waiting on him]

Romans 8:16-17 KJV
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Here again we are children, born of Spirit.
Tecarta Bible
The brethren, a common mother, she’s above and free.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Since you failed to see "the Holy Spirit" written in the passages you quoted, that is sufficient evidence.

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the three divine Persons within the ONE Godhead, it would be A VIOLATION OF BIBLE TRUTH AND SPIRITUAL TRUTH to call the Holy Spirit the Bride of Christ.

The Church is both the Body of Christ (denoting eternal union) and the Bride of Christ (denoting eternal intimate love and fellowship), and those are spiritual truths and divine metaphors.

The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the saints of God (the Church), and therefore it is personified as a bride adorned for her husband. But the inhabitants of the city are the Bride, not the structure (which you do not even believe is a reality).

the question or ongoing debate always is Jerusalem the bride or Is the church, His body the bride? Kick me for error if the body and bride are not the same. Same as with my husband it is taught I’m of his body and also his bride (wife)coheir. So kick again if that confuses the heck out of me when the ongoing debate is the wife and body are not the same.

As far as metaphors Revelation 21:2-3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

“metaphors” a lot of significance is on “adorning” Jerusalem in the OT with outward beauty and bling. Scarlets, tapestry, silk...it goes on and on. Even the promises were outward. Wealth, health so much so that it gets blurred who is the harlot (whore) and who is the virtuous woman clothed with purple. Who can find a good wife? Was it ever about those outward adornments or being subjected to vanity and futility and emptiness? Point is, the adornments of a bride is in the OT so I’m not sure the adornments are metaphors but proclaim “emptiness”. Because while the creature was subjected to vanity it was also subjected to Hope (Liberality). Those “adornments” inward. As a woman I can testify to living it. everything I saw in the mirror reflected back at me I adorned with jewelry, color, youth, showcasing it BUT on the inside I was “empty”. He says to not adorn yourself with outward beauty because it is passing, let those adornments be inward those things precious in His sight. Isaiah 61:10-11 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation,(praise) he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. [11] For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Point is the Jerusalem discussed had her beauty broken...the promise is seen above(lifted up with Him)and free going from “bride” to “wife” to “mother”. Her “adornments” very different. A different kind of beauty that is not empty, vanity, futile and passing away.

Another place you and I never agree follows seeing that Holy, Jerusalem descend as a bride adorned for her husband. “And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

is the “the tabernacle of God with men” or not?
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[amadeus]

those def strike me as good Qs, the Qs even. Imo there is something in the Bible that let's us know, and any one who wants to should not stop believing that 144000 literal citizens from the reconstructed State of Israel, 12000 from each tribe, are what are in view there, in that spiritual vision of the, supposedly, future, right?

However imo Scripture is constructed in such a way that one will have another passage or passages that are being treated differently by that one, rather than the same, in order to comport with their desires or beliefs, thus revealing any hypocrisy, a couple even spring to mind.

As to all of us making our best guess in the moment, really isnt that all we are doing now? How did we all start singing "When We All Get to Heaven" when few there are who find it the kingdom of heaven is within you where I am going you cannot come no one has ever gone up to heaven?

seems to me like "best guess" would be an awesome and much less pagan improvement?
what is it?

"Best guesses" are certainly here mixed perhaps with some bits of revelation from God to some here today or? But I haven't seen anyone with the whole loaf certainly including myself. All the pieces may even be here among us, but who is a wise masterbuilder like Paul [I Cor 3:10] able to put it all together in proper order? Are all of the pieces ready to fit properly so that the Body will work then as God knows that it will?

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:16

 

[Base12]

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the three divine Persons within the ONE Godhead...

And *we* are a Trinity as well...

Body
Soul
Spirit

Upon death, we lose the Body, but keep the Soul (Feminine) and Spirit (Masculine).

Thus...

The Father on the Throne represents Abraham who marries Sarah the 'Structure' of New Jerusalem.
The Word on the Throne is the Lamb who marries our Souls
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit we already received here on Earth.

It is our Feminine Soul that marries the Masculine Lamb.

The Soul is Feminine...

Psalms 34:2
"My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad"

The Marriage is more about making babies... in other words, our Soul and Spirit are Born Again into the Glorified Body.

And if we keep going with our Adult Education class we find that...

The Tree of Life is Sarah's Ovaries in the Womb of New Jerusalem.

The Water proceeding from the Throne is the Semen that fertilizes the Tree of Life...

Revelation 22:1
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb"

We are the Spirit/Soul that combine with the above and presto! Conception takes place. We are Born Again into the Glorified Body.

Sorry to be so graphic, but again the Church teaches the Stork and Baby version of all of this. The Grown-up version is censored.

Oh, and the opposite is how we got here...

Our Earthly Father is Satan. Our Earthly Mother is Mystery Babylon.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil resided in your Mother's tummy.

As the Seed of your Father's Serpent watered your Mom's Tree, you all partook of the Forbidden Fruit and thus you were Born into this world.

What does Mystery Babylon hold in her hand? What is in the Cup? A Hot Mess?

Who partook of it? YOU DID!

Jeremiah 51:7
"Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD’S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad"

Wake up people...

 

[bbyrd009]

I’m not sure Byrd, I wish I had full clarity myself. His seed remains in us, what is redemption?

I can’t help but believe that both Johns saw His bride descending on Him, but my mind is going in a million different directions this morning

fwiw i would find spiritual analogies for the literal sperm and the other elements in the story that would make the story relevant to irl and our lives today, and by "find" i dont mean "make up" but rather seek the relevant analogies that already exist, with an understanding of the meaning of the names involved, etc. I dont want to just blurt it out bc for me it resolved into a fairly mundane thing we do all the time, but it might resolve diff for you, but anyway
Er
Meaning
City, Aroused, Wild Ass
Etymology
From the verb ערר ('arar), to strip and accumulate.
Related names
Onan
Meaning
[Their] Trouble, [Their] Vigor
Etymology
From the root און ('wn), to experience much trouble or have much vigor.
Related names
Tamar
Meaning
Palm Tree, Free Market
Etymology
From the noun תמר (tamar), palm tree.
Related names

unless you find some better ones, and then bam post them, but you might see how a um more pertinent story is already kinda presenting itself

 

[bbyrd009]

Upon death, we lose the Body, but keep the Soul

which would necessitate that we have souls rather than what Scripture says, that we are souls, yes?

all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me

 

[Base12]

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

^^^
Adult Education right there.