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Featured BreadOfLife ~ UNPROVEN CLAIMS..

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Taken, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
    .. who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
    .. hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    .... For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

    ...... God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
    ........ and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
    .. who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

    (Rom 8:1-4)

    Hello @Taken,

    You refer, in an earlier post, to the Lord Jesus Christ being made in the, 'likeness', of man. It caught my eye as I was glancing through, for I am not following your argument with BreadOfLife, which has become personal to you two I feel.

    * In regard to 'sinful flesh' it is said that God sent His Own Son in it's 'likeness' only. I am glad that you made that point.

    * I love the teaching concerning the Kinsman Redeemer, which necessitated that our Lord should be made like unto His Brethren (Israel), that He may become their Kinsman Redeemer, Their Deliverer, foretold by the OT prophets.

    'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    .. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    .... But made Himself of no reputation,
    ...... and took upon Him the form of a servant,
    ........ and was made in the likeness of men:
    And being found in fashion as a man,
    .. He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death,
    .... even the death of the cross.
    Wher
    efore God also hath highly exalted Him,
    .. and given Him a name which is above every name:
    .... That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    ...... of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    ........ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    .......... to the glory of God the Father.'

    (Philippians 2:5-11)

    Praise His Holy Name!

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  2. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @BreadOfLife,

    With respect, I do understand, and have not missed the point. Yet our Lord could not have been a perfect human being without being 'sinless'. He could not have been the perfect sacrifice, had He not been so. He was only able to be a perfect human being by being in it's 'likeness' only.

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Yes but He didn't have to be sinful to be fully human.
    Adam was created without sin and he was fully human.

    If you don't accept that Christ was fully man and fully God - you are in heresy.

    This is basic tenet of Christianity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
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  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I think @charity already addressed that in post #640 . . .
     
  5. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
    Precisely.

    Jesus came to accomplish specific things, such as Fulfilling "THE" Law. I do not believe the majority, when hearing that, consider He not only fulfilled God Law; but also fulfilled MANS Law.

    Jesus specifically took upon Himself, the seed of an Earthly man;
    WHO was FAITHFUL TO God,
    WHO was given a promise of God that he would be a father of many nations.
    WHO has Descendants FAITHFUL TO God,
    WHO Ascendants were Hebrews to the Tribes
    WHO were Jewish
    WHO themselves not Jewish, but take upon themselves the same seed.
    WHO would Be inheritors of Promised Land.

    Jesus came to Earth in the "LIKENESS" of Abraham; Gods Faithful Servant.

    Abraham Through Promise is a man IN CHRIST'S, earthly "father".

    Abraham's LAND Promise is bequeathed to a man IN Christ, and IS where king David's everlasting throne is.

    And Since Jesus fulfill Gods Law AND Mans Law, Jesus is "lawfully" ENTITLED to sit on king David's Throne.

    And men IN CHRIST (having accomplished immortality) are entitled to be INCLUDED in occupying the LAND Promised TO Abraham, and inhabit Christ the Lords Earthly Kingdom, while (mortals) inhabit the lands OUTSIDE of Christ's earthly Kingdom (for 1,000 years).

    Heb 2
    [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    Gal 3
    29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Eph 1
    [9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Out from God IN HEAVEN, (Gods Throne) God sent "Himself" TO EARTH, (Gods Footstool), in the LIKENESS OF a FAITHFUL man, for earthly men to Hear.......AND SEE.......and LEARN HOW TO BECOME reconcilled and Become "MADE" in the LIKENESS OF GOD.

    Remember in the OT men "HEARD" from God...and men begged to SEE GOD, and God called them "stiffnecked", because men simply HEARING from God was not sufficient?
    And they were SHORT on patience?
    Ex 32

    Then God Promised men, He would SEND them thee Christ Messiah Savior?

    Isa 55
    [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    God DOES NOT Change.
    He is NOT created and then BECOME the created.

    God is NOT a HUMAN of the dust of the Earth.
    God is ALL-MIGHTY and may Manifest Himself to men IN ANY FASHION "He" pleases.

    God came AMONG earthly men to SHOW, BY EXAMPLE "HOW" corrupt earthly men could BECOME "uncorruptable", in Gods Likeness.

    Like your post!
    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    YOU weren’t created from the ”dust of the earth” either. Only Adam was.

    YOU were figuratively created from the dust of the earth. Technically, you were created in your mother’s womb.

    Adam didn’t have a mother. Jesus DID – just like YOU.
    Jesus, who was eternally the Son, came to earth and became a human beingFUULY man to become the perfect sacrifice before the Father for our sins.

    Anything less is heresy.
     
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  7. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    A basic tenet of Christianity is the Word of God IS God,
    John 1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    and came forth out from God in heaven.
    To earth:
    John 16
    [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    And made and seen by earthly men...
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    WHO is refuting The Word of God came in the LIKENESS of men? YOU!

    WHO does not KNOW HUMAN MEN come from the dust of the Ground?

    WHO does not KNOW the Lord came DOWN from Heaven?

    WHO does not KNOW HUMAN MEN DO NOT COME FROM HEAVEN? Apparently YOU!

    WHO does not KNOW God DOES NOT CHANGE? Apparently YOU!

    WHO is changing the truth into a LIE? YOU!

    God does not CHANGE and BECOME a CREATED HUMAN. Yet you slyly imply and call people heretics WHO KNOW God does not CHANGE, but yet has the ALL_MIGHTY POWER TO APPEAR IN ANY LIKENESS and be CALLED by ANY Description "HE" (not you) proclaims.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  8. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    False.

    Technically HUMANS are CREATED IN a woman's fallopian tubes. The WOMB is where the "created thing" grows and developes for 9 months (according to the LAW of Nature and mankind).

    THE THING is still created from DUST of the Ground and RETURNS to the ground from which it was created.

    Your teaching is EXPPRESSLY LIMITED to your CARNAL understanding, which is a FAIL when discussing SPIRITUAL things.

    According to CARNAL MEN, and their LAWS, any BABE that comes forth out a woman's WOMB is the LAWFUL/LEGAL son of that woman.

    According to Scripture itself, WHEN JESUS CAME FORTH OUT FROM GOD IN HEAVEN...
    (BEFORE entering Mary's WOMB)
    John 1
    [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.

    YOU UNDERSTAND....NOT, NOR, NOR...as
    God fertalized MARY's SEED to REPRODUCE Jesus? LOL

    John 1
    [13] Which were born...of God...

    Matt 12
    [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    No, he DID NOT BECOME a HUMAN.
    He BECAME FLESH.
    And WAS MADE in the "LIKENESS" as a HUMAN.

    (Obviously you are unaware, SOMETHING must "EXIST", before that SOMETHING can be "MADE".)
    The EARTH "existed".
    The DUST of the EARTH "existed"
    HUMAN men were "MADE" from the dust.
    JESUS/ GOD ALWAYS EXISTED.
    God has the SUPREME POWER to "MAKE" Himself "APPEAR" in ANY fashion that Pleases HIM!

    Pfft...Your teaching is heresy.

    God does not CHANGE and Become a "HUMAN".

    MEN do not CHANGE and BECOME "GOD".

    God was made in the LIKENESS of human men;
    TO TEACH human men HOW TO BECOME MADE in the LIKENESS of God.

    Already told you...go learn what LIKENESS means...

    Having a conversation with you is MEANINGLESS, since I speak of Spiritual things and you want to argue with your carnal understanding.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    I would never call YOU a heretic.

    Technically - only a Catholic can be a heretic. You can't be a heretic from outside the Church.
    You espouse heresy by denying Christ's humanity - but you're NO heretic.
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    You are the Queen of the Scriptural Cherry-Pickers.

    You post John 1:13, as if it is talking about Christ - when it is talking about CHRISTIANS.
    Here is the verse - in CONTEXT . . .
    John 1:13

    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    This is talking about His born again followers - NOT Him.
    This verse does NOTHING to bolster your argument that Jesus wasn't a human.
     
  11. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Catholic.

    As a Catholic YOU ARE bound to the Traditions of men.

    Christ Jesus Himself taught Against that notion...

    Mark 7
    [13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Christ's Church IS Universally for ALL men to individually choose to JOIN.

    Christ's Church IS NOT based ON TRADITIONS of men, AS IS THE CATHOLIC church.

    FALSE.

    YOU CHOOSE the meaning of "HUMANITY" that APPLIES exclusively to BEING A HUMAN MAN....
    BY YOUR teaching, and Tradition...YOU MAKE JESUS "A HUMAN MAN".

    I CHOOSE the meaning of "HUMANITY" that APPLIES to the QUALITIES of LOVING, being KIND, being CARING, BENEVOLENCE.

    I TRUST Scripture, (without the traditions of men), that JESUS came to EARTH in the "LIKENESS of Faithful men", (not ALL men, AS YOU teach)...revealing HIS QUALITY of LOVING, KINDNESS, CARING, BENEVOLENCE.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  12. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    YOUR Accusing me of Cherry-Picking, is obviously an ATTEMPT to BE a NEGATIVE accusation...

    HOWEVER...

    SCRIPTURE is written in ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and APPLIES TO "ALL" of mankind.

    INDIVIDUALLY "HUMAN MEN", PICK AND CHOOSE, what to BELIEVE, what to COMMIT their BELIEFS "TO",
    and
    SCRIPTURE ITSELF, thereafter REVEALS the TRUTH which SPECIFICALLY APPLIES to THAT individual......BECAUSE OF WHAT that individual has CHOSEN TO BELIEVE and COMMIT his BELIEFS TO.

    So, you betcha, CHERRY-PICKING DOES APPLY!

    BASED ON "MY" individual CHOICE TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS, SETS ME APART FROM MEN WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST JESUS

    Scripture that APPLIES to men WHO reject Christ Jesus, and the consequences thereof REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE...
    DO NOT APPLY TO ME!

    I KNOW that IN Scripture WHICH APPLIES TO ME, and that IN Scripture WHICH "DOES NOT" Apply to me, BY WHAT "I" have DONE and COMMITTED TO.

    "YOU" "REPEATEDLY" ignore an individuals CLAIMS, and thumb through Scripture LOOKING for a VERSE "that DOES NOT APPLY" to "AN OTHER" and FALSELY dictate that Verse APPLIES to an other, YET, provide NOT ONCE LICK OF EVIDENCE the other has MADE SUCH A CLAIM.

    IN short, "YOU" absolutely DO REVEAL, "YOU" adhere to the CATHOLIC TRADITIONS OF MEN. "YOU" FALSELY teach "MEN" can "DICTATE" what APPLIES "TO OTHER MEN", without a shred of Evidence to SUPPORT your claim.

    "YOU" have expressly claimed; YOU received the HOLY SPIRIT, without "YOU" having MADE a commitment of BELIEF "IN CHRIST".

    "YOU" have expressly claimed; OTHER specific people have claimed TO "HAVE" "no sin", YET, you could not PROVIDE ONE quote of ANYONE making that claim.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  13. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @BreadOfLife,

    I believe that Christ was both God and man.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    In your usual verbose, ALL CAPS, psychotic rant style, you have failed once again to show me – from Scripture – where human men are differentiated from “other kinds” of men.

    MY Bible only talks about human men.

    Chapter and Verse, please . . .
     
  15. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    John 1 Speaks of many SPECIFIC.


    John.1
    [1] the Word, God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    (Not LIKENESS...but specifically THE SAME).
    [4] the life
    [5]the light ... the darkness
    [6] John
    [7] a witness, the Light, all men
    [8] that Light.
    [9] the true Light, every man
    [10] the world,
    [11] He, his own
    (NOT every man, but Specifically "HIS" own).
    [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    (MANY of "HIS" own, "THEM" of ALL men)
    [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    (WHICH...? SPECIFICALLY... "HIS" own AND "ALL" ... WHO ARE MADE SONS OF GOD.
    And what APPLIES IN CONTEXT TO SONS OF GOD is SONS of GOD;
    ARE SONS of GOD are BORN of GOD.

    And what DOES NOT APPLY IN CONTEXT TO SONS OF GOD is SONS of GOD IS:
    SONS OF GOD ARE "NOT" BORN of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man.

    IN CONTEXT
    JESUS IS the SON of God...AND came to EARTH AS THE SON of God.
    He is NOT BORN of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man.

    IN CONTEXT
    ALL HUMAN MEN have the OPPORTUNITY to become (BORN AGAIN), "OF GOD", ALSO, NOT BORN of blood, not the will of the flesh, nor the will of man. BUT RATHER, BY THE POWER OF GOD

    It is CLEAR Jesus is the FIRST DECLARED, THE Son of God, the ONLY begotten Son of God, the ONLY one who was IN GOD and came forth OUT FROM GOD. HUMAN MEN DID
    NOT come forth OUT FROM GOD. HUMAN men BECOME "MADE" sons of God, through DECLARED ADOPTION, AFTER they receive the Spirit and SEED of God, and THEY SHALL ALL TOGETHER become JOINED in MARRIAGE TO THEIR Lord God at a later date, when ALL sons of God are gathered together.

    And a HUMAN man WHO BECOMES "born of God"....BECOMES "BORN OF GOD"....
    BECOMES there after "IN THE LIKENESS" of GODS "ONLY" Begotten Son...
    And thereafter, become ADOPTED by GOD, and entitled to be CALLED, "a son of God".

    Rom 8
    [
    15] ...the Spirit of adoption , whereby we cry, Abba, Father.




    No, this is NOT verse John 1:13.
    This is verse John 1:12.
    No, this is NOT the verse I quoted.

    No, this is NOT ONLY speaking of "Christians".
    BOTH verses John 1:12 AND verse John 1:13 speak of BOTH...men AND God.
    Man of the Earth and Man who came forth out from God ARE NOT THE SAME KIND OF MAN.


    False.
    Him, he, his, God is specifically said and is specifically speaking of God - NOT HUMANS.

    So John 1:12 and John 1:13 speaks of both, Human men and God.

    John 1
    [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  16. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Already gave you Chapter and Verse of MEN of dust of the Earth and A MAN out from God IN HEAVEN, who CAME TO EARTH.

    YOU say they are the SAME, Scripture doesn't.
    Scripture reveals they COME FROM different places and return to DIFFERENT places.

    Can't understand it FOR YOU.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.

    EVERY person is flesh and spirit. These verses aren't talking about people "other than" human men.
    They are talking about regenerated souls of human men.

    You have FAILED to show where the Bible differentiates between a human man and some other kind of man.
    Christ is God. Christ is ALSO a man - a HUMAN man.

    There's only ONE kind of man . . .
     
  18. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    You proclaim and teach JESUS IS a Naturaly earthly human man...Scripture Does not teach what you proclaim.

    Disagree with you.

    1 Cor 15:
    [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    1 Cor 15:
    [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (second man) that which is spiritual.

    John 3:
    [31] He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

    Scripture clearly TEACHES...
    1) Human earthly men are from dust.
    2) Huuman earthly men return to dust.

    3) Jesus is out from God in Heaven.
    4) Jesus returned to God in Heaven.

    5) Jesus came To earth, in the LIKENESS of human men.

    6) Human men First Saw Jesus in the LIKENESS of a human man.

    The DIFFERENCE between You and Me...
    IS
    You proclaim Jesus IS a Human man.
    I proclaim Jesus IS Spirit Who was Manifested in the Likeness as a Human man.

    The DIFFERENCE between You and Jesus' disciples IS
    They First knew Jesus, "AS" a (Human) man, and afterward, ONLY knew Him "As" Christ the Lord.

    2 Cor 5:16
    [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now [/B] henceforth [/B] know we him no more.

    I agree with Scripture.
    I agree with Jesus' disciples.

    I disagree with you.

    I have nothing to prove to you.
    I have no obligation to Understand FOR you.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    It’s not ME you need to worry about . . .

    Your heresy, which is the ancient heresy knows as “Docetism” was dealt with over 1600 years ago. You are simply rehashing an argument that the Early Church already settled.
    Both Ignatius of Antioch and Irenaeus wrote against this heresy – which was ultimately condemned at the Councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon.

    It was originally refuted by the Apostle John – but ignorant people like YOU keep bringing it back to the forefront . . .

    1 John 4:2-3
    By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

    2 John 7
    "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."


    “IN THE FLESH”.
    Not. “In the LIKENESS of the flesh” – but in the ACTUAL FLESH . . .
     
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  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I do not worry about you.
    I clearly have revealed I disagree with you.
    Learn the difference.

    I Disagree with you.
    I Agree with Scripture.

    Rom 8:
    [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
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