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Calling all Law Keepers.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by "ByGrace", Oct 6, 2017.

  1. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Great point!
     
  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    hmm. don't think so wadr
    just as we might rely on a rap sheet, or the absence of one, as an indicator of someone's "righteousness" today imo
     
  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    amen, just as "no man may die for the sins of another."
     
  4. KBCid

    KBCid Active Member

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    You indeed can use your God given freedom to disagree.
    As for the rap sheet analogy no. Jews made sacrifices to God for the purpose of covering both their own sins already past and the sins of their families and they believed that simply whacking some animals was enough to justify their admittance to the kingdom.
    Christ was pointing this out to the Jews who he was sent to. It was not the acts of the law that justified one before God it was the faith that God was going to send a prophet like unto Moses who would take away forever the sins of the world.

    Psalm 40:6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me (Christ), 8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law (what Law?) is within my heart.

    Psalm 51:16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
    19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness....

    1 Samuel 15:22
    And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

    Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

    Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

    Now read this NT reference on the subject of animal sacrifice which Christ came to address;

    Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”
    8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Look carefully at the law / laws that is being talked about if this was in reference to the 10 moral commandments then tell me how is "thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not covet a shadow of something coming? [The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming]

    If there is no law there can be no sin and no need for this scripture;

    Hebrews 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    I will let Micah finish this thought;
    Micah 6:6-8“With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
     
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  5. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Yes, just like the scriptures it is in fact the jumbling of what is true in the world, with what is true in the kingdom - which is completely different.
    Being of the world and knowing only the world as it exists on a timeline of events, that is the perception. However, the greater truth does not exist on that worldly timeline...so that explanation is only so good, or really no good at all, if we seek first the kingdom as Jesus directed us to do. That which is of the world is worldly, and that which is of the kingdom is not.
    Indeed, but like tongues, I have interpreted the truth from God.
     
  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Well then,
    Christianity as accepted does not agree with you.
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    That may be true.

    Would you care to paraphrase a few specifics for comment?
     
  8. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    No I wouldn't Scott.
    Here's why...
    Jesus spoke and He made everything be very simple and easy to understand.

    What you posted, twice, is not understandable to me.
    When Jesus was dying He said 7 last sentences or "words" as they're called.

    Each "word" had a specific meaning.
    IT IS FINISHED has a specific meaning.
    We can't make up our own meanings. I'm not saying yours doesn't agree even... I'm saying I don't really understand your pov.

    I posted what IT IS FINISHED means. This is the accepted definition.
    Maybe there could be a thread on it?
     
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  9. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Active Member

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    I once tried to follow the law.
    My baptist upbringing told me I should.
    Then one day I realized Jesus is a liberal.
    After all, if he were conservative, then what are the Pharisees?
    It gave me a whole new look on christianity.
    So I became an outcast.
    To all of them, I was a nut and not to be trusted.
    And to me, they were the Law Keepers, and they had the power to force their laws upon me or tell me to leave the church.
    Since they had the support of the pastor, that's what they did.

    Calling all law keepers?
    You are calling on the Pharisees or those that don't better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 4:21 PM
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  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    What does it mean that you "tried to follow the law"?
    Do you think we're NOT supposed to try to follow the law?
     
  11. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Active Member

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    Trying to follow the law because God requires it.
    Do you think you need to follow the Laws?
    When was the last time you gave a burnt offering at the altar of the Temple of God to a Levite?
     
  12. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I guess you don't read my posts...
    You'll be horrified, I'm sure.
    God does require that we follow the law.
    The commandments were in force 3,000 years ago and they still are today.
    It was wrong to steal back then, and it's wrong to steal today.
    So, yeah, I think I'm required to follow the law.
    No burnt offerings.
    Jesus was the last offering.
    Is that what the law is to you?
    The commandments are the law.
     
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  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    yes, they are words to live by :)
     
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  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    We either get our clarity from the world, or we get it from God.

    All world language was confused [by God] at the tower of Babel...and that is the world's view point. Conversely, Jesus Christ clarified that He is building His church by what is revealed by His Father in Heaven. That is the point of view which I have declared to you.
     
  15. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Our clarity is from God.
    But there's no babbling going on here.
    Some scripture is easy to understand and has been studied and we know what it means. In some cases it cannot be understood with certainty.
    I do rely on persons that have studied and understand the times of Jesus and how people spoke back then... how to link scripture so we could better know what is meant.

    You seem not to agree with this method. Not everyone does...
     
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  16. KBCid

    KBCid Active Member

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    You are learning.
     
  17. KBCid

    KBCid Active Member

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    Do you in fact grasp the difference between sacrificial laws and the moral commandments? Your answer above implies that you do yet you stated that you once tried to obey the law as a Baptist.... do they sacrifice animals to God for their sins?
     
  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    we can also observe how words might be misquoted, taken out of context, etc
    this cannot be done with Word

    and how "faith alone" ppl insist that Bible is Word, right; but then do not keep the Word as they understand It, and tell others that they do not have to, either.
     
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  19. KBCid

    KBCid Active Member

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    Na ahhh.... according some "very good Christian" people we can steal all week and then just go ask for forgiveness on the first day of the week and we are covered because Jesus loves us and he fulfilled the requirements of "the law" and we can't sin anymore.... and don't forget the collection plate before you leave.

    oh come on that is just not the modern way to look at things.... all that stuff was just for those Jews and they couldn't do it and now Christ says we don't have to... all we need to do is believe and we will live in paradise..... So, why don't you just fall in line with what man tells you is the truth and go with it.... and hey let's just go hang out and we can rob a liquor store or something fun.... we are covered...

    No laws no sin .... everything we wanted as children.... no rules we can live like peter pan...

    And then when the fantasy is over we will stand in front of the lord.....
     
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  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Every time two believers disagree is there not some babbling involved?

    People who understand less than every message God has given to them or all of the message God has give to them through the scripture are confused in the measure that they do not understand. God is not the author of confusion, and God did not author all of the garbage that is in us. God made everything very good, but man took the very good and misused it and abused it and twisted it. The very good exists, but too often it is in the midst of confusion. Without being led by the Holy Spirit, we can never untangle the whole mess. The tares are there together with the wheat. Be careful about trying to pull out the bad while the good is still growing for you may damage the young tender sprouts.

    We may get some very good help from knowledgeable believers present or past [such as the Early Fathers], but unless the helpers are as clear and correct on every point as Jesus was, some of their help will be wrong. We, each one of us, needs the help of the Holy Spirit to sift through it all and come up with the "face to face" answer to replace "as through a glass darkly" answers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 6:00 AM
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